Commissioned Crewman Leaders
 

*Pulls up a chair* http://forums.airshows.co.uk/images/smilies/snack.gif

Confused dot com
 

With empowered Masters, why would the system want to undo all their good work? :=

Commissioned Loadies:

No, just their brains. The bins being the ones by the Henlow and Cranwell main gates.

If in doubt, just check for the zip at the back of the head. (Eh, St John's:ok:)

CG

I think that particular zip went in post Scuffer trg :p:p:p

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

He's gonna be peeved with me, but REALLY annoyed with you!

CG

I must protest - your Post upset SFFP.

That is most unfair - it was not your turn. There is a waiting list!!

If I get to the reunion this year I will buy him a beer and I am sure he will forgive me if not I will tell all about how Joyce the cleaner almost caught him during a crafty "ND" :E

Caz,

It's a Crewman thread so go dribble elsewhere, oh and remind us again where are you paying your pension tax :p:p:p

Seldom - Charlie. A zip! Luxury! I was only there for 4 days so a bit of Velcro, super glued in, was the best they could do. The original snowdrop zip had healed over by then.

Seldom. Now that was a good det; Didn’t Jack M*****G ‘break’ his leg on that one;)? And who could forget ‘Captain Gonad’ on the water taxi:eek:!

Was indeed, was indeed, hope to see you in Nov if we are back from our travels :ok:

They do the cr@p jobs proper Rodney's wont do

Jeff L was a proper Rodney... :E

There was one at Odious in my time and he was a Grade A

http://www.baldwinbrasshardware.com/.../2007/5405.jpg

I remember him hanging from a Wessex winch in a cargo net after being installed there by the rest of the crews.

Jeff meant well... and was a nice man...

My opinion as well however not a populist viewpoint at all.

An interesting debate the 'empowered master' one. Actually intent was for masters to step up to the plate and take on the duties and responsibilities of the commissioned guys...shame so many of them shy away from the real staff work when it comes to it.
Admittedly there was a fair percentage of duff commissioned guys, but let's not kid ourselves that all the MAcr Ldrs are shining stars by any stretch of the imagination. The ongoing debate is where are frontline units from both sides of the divide going to grow their execs from when the Nav trade dies and the pilot numbers get even lower? I would suggest the debate rages on and with the small numbers we'd be talking about there really is room for all. Depends whether the cadre (and the OCs) want to have a representative voice (that is heard) higher up the food chain.
And when the competition was run in recent years there wasn't exactly a shortage of applicants so the interest is still out there. Personal opinion of course.....

Globefan. WTF is an 'empowered master'? Is there a proper definition. Do they get substitution pay?

Nutloose. Nice self portrait!

Empowered Master
 

They can't receive substitution pay as this would actually mean a pay cut! :ok:

:suspect:So if it's cheaper to have a commissioned leader???????

nope, my knob is bigger:O

xenolith: Globefan. WTF is an 'empowered master'?

The result of an ill-thought out plan by a senior officer way back in 02-03 I think, when he decided to stop in-branch commissioning. Little short-sighted some might say....

Empowered Master? How many fell for that one, who is really going to stand and fight your corner at exec level?

Commissioned FE's or LM's.
 

It is not the end of the world folks. The RAAF has never, in the fifty four years I know of, ever had an operational Flight Engineer or Loadmaster hold a commission. Seems to work OK and I met few, certainly none that come to mind, Warrant Officer Section Leaders who did not have the balls to stick up for their troops when required.

Hear what your saying old fella, seems like things are good in the RAAF,however; I know of several instances when the "empowered Master" was deliberately excluded from execs meetings and sqn planning meetings. Even the sqn cdr at the time admitted that things were dire for the branch (back in 03 or o4 as I remember). Things are moving rapidly, who knows whats ahead?

Although I referred to the one I knew as a total kn*b which to be honest he was, I still cannot fathom the belief that by simply holding a commission the person should be better and more knowledgeable at the job, looking in now from the outside, one see's that is often far from the case, indeed to the detriment of those that know what they are doing, but are over ruled by rank by those that don't, gain smarty points in doing it.

I was always taught to seek out as an Engineer the 20 year SAC OR JT, as they knew the aircraft and systems, it was borne out in practice, but the get promoted or be gone culture has resulted in a orientation to be seen to know what one is doing so one can be promoted, against what the industry has of actually knowing. You now get people in ranks that are in for hopefully a short a time as possible and you lose those that used to have the knowledge base from experience in that rank, which means higher you rapidly rise the dilution of knowledge occurs.

In one respect that is why I find Civilian life better, if you do not cut the mustard you are gone, hence why a lot of ex RAF Engineers can comfortably exceed what the RAF pays the likes of Sqn Ldrs, and freed from what I now see as a semi repressive rank structure shine and get the opportunity to fly...


Such a shame the services do not recognise those people very well and commission them.

I in my service history i had 2 engineering officers who were switched on, recognised the skills below them, utilised and encouraged them, and worked as a team.. the rest were mediocre to be kind, and one..l these days I would have sacked him 10 times over.

Xenolith, I respect your views, but was it not the case that the input for supporting the up banding came mainly from the Master cadre and the commissioned leaders had little involvement? I agree that as a branch we missed a trick and still feel it was a jaded exercise in bean counting. Clear above and behind......

QSki. 'Clear above and behind' :) haven’t heard that for a while! In answer to your question, my info came from a mate at ISK, after the event (I had left by then). The AE leadership kept it close to their chest for obvious reasons.

NutLoose. Hmmmm,

1. The only engineers in the RAF are commissioned. All else are technicians or mechanics etc.
2. If you want a pop at Eng Os start your own thread.
3. That knob is very shiny. Do you polish it a lot?;)

Sorry was using it as an example....

BTW not all "Engineers" in the RAF are commissioned, I know / knew Engineers in the RAF that hold licences and degrees but are not commissioned.

If you don't hold an Engineering degree your not an engineer! The rest are mechanics or technicians, no matter how good they are.
It's a bit like the cooks in the mess getting called chefs, they are NOT chefs but cooks.

Ooh what about Logistic support engineers (stackers)!!!!

What about Flight Engineers, Ground Engineers and Licenced Engineers. There are also Engineering Officers who do not hold degrees, are they not engineers?

Not an engineer if no degree.
 

Jayand and xenolith, what a lot of rot. I know people whom hold an Engineering Degree and could not put a Mechano Set together. I know people that did not go to High School and yet they can construct machines of a very complex nature. I do not know what qualifications you hold, but please do not try to diminish to value of those whom you call mechanics or technicians, nor the cooks for that matter. Using your logic there are no Flight Engineers, Ships Engineers, Railway Engineers or Army Engineers (you know, the ones that build airfields). As others have said, holding a commission does not make the holder necessarily any better or worse than the non-commissioned ENGINEERS.

Wrong... They are ration assassins... Chefs can cook... :E

I knew this would cause consternation, you can call anyone what you want including using the name Engineer, but a name does not mean you are one.
You may work in Engineering as I do but unless you hold an Engineering degree you are not strictly an Engineer.
Look to the real world and Industry, the Engineers you talk of within the service would almost all be considered as Technicians. Engineering Officers would not get a job (lol) Engo's are better suited to project management imo.
Engineer jobs in the real world require you to have an Engineering degree.

There is a direct Gov e-petition to protect the title 'Engineer' available at Make 'Engineer' a protected title - e-petitions

Once I cudn't even spell Inginurr, now I are one!

Has the term Artificers gone out of fashion?

It to me not only gave an ability to seperate the practical from the design but also gave a title to a skill which those that have it have every reason to be proud of.

According to the wording of that e-petition, even crewmen when 'retired from the profession' will be able to call themselves engineers. Win-win!

CG (Engineer, apparently.)

Old Fella

Your post reminds me that many of them can work out the square root to a jar of pickles, but cannot get the lid off...

Back to the thread. I've met many 'empowered' MAcr that can give the best commissioned Rearcrew Ldr a run for their money, and many who I wouldn't trust to write a sick note for my son never mind an SJAR. But that works for the commissioned lot too, it's horses for courses I guess.

Sadly, in the current climate, it's irrelevant this year anyway as there is no commissioning requirement.

Regards

Gene

NutLoose & Oldfella.

Firstly,

Quote:

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ENGINEERS

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There is absolutely no need to shout!

Secondly, my comments based on the RAF career structure and therefore

Quote:

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I know / knew Engineers in the RAF that hold licences and degrees but are not commissioned

---

does not hold water. May I direct you to:
http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/technicalandengineering.cfm:ok:

It would seem to the casual observer that you both have issues with professional standing, name wise, and with your (ex) superior officers i.e. commissioned ones. That is entirely your affair so I won’t even mention chips on shoulders etc.;)

What you may not know, when berating said superior officers about not getting their hands dirty at the ‘coal face’, is that commissioned ALMs were recruited exclusively from the SNCO cadre and were not direct entry commissions. As I remember the most reviled ALM officers were the ones that entered by the ‘back door’ i.e. commissioning outside the branch because they didn’t measure up in the ALM competition and then sneaking back into the branch thereby stealing a place on the next competition.:yuk: