Aircrew side arms
 

I'm trying to work out what walther pistol was issued to RAF Fast Jet pilots and have been told Walther PP & PPK by different sources?

Anyone able to enlighten?

I think it wash a PPK, Mish Moneypenny.

Girly gun; should have issued an 1848 .44 Colt Dragoon. Jolly good for scaring people, including the firer........

Anyway, most people who are not in current practice with a pistol could not hit a cow's ar$e with a banjo.

HB

Oddly enough, the FJ Navs were allowed to carry a pistol too...

I think the last model carried was the PP (Polizei Pistole - although the difference between that and the PPK were not great).

The predecessor - Browning 9mm - was much better, if no more accurate in average aircrew hands; at least it was hefty enough to smack someone around the head and leave a dent. The range was also far superior- you could fire a pencil about 10-15 feet, provided that you had reassembled it with all the bits that flew out during "familiarisation" on exercises (I think the pencils with earasers on the end were a little more stable that those without).

Mr B

Ah yes, the Browning 9mm. Super tool. Manageable recoil for a quick double-tap, pointable, shootable, big mag capacity (even bigger with extended mag).

I have seen one with a wooden holster/stock & adjustable sights; just the thing for the cats that like to leave a deposit on my lawn, methinks.

In my shooting days, I once had a pop with a Colt .45 semi-auto pistol, courtesy of the US Marines. This is for buffalo hunting or some similar pastime; too much gun.

HB

Not sure that's possible!

Yes the Browning 9mm was great unless you happened to be a AAC Scout pilot.

The holster used to snag on the seat height lever and you ended up looking at the bottom of the instrument panel !!

Bit scary if you happened in the last seconds of landing :D:D:D

PP, not PPK.....

Sigs now for most. Execpt for Herc aircrew, who still have the Browning. Talk about gun envy, especially from certain people. they fail to realise that the browing is actually the better pistol, sigs are plasticcy, high maintenance and not suited to abuse.

For those that are interested all service pistols are to be replaced shortly as the LWIPT is currently deciding on the winner of its service pistol replacement competition...:8

I thought crews were now using Sig Sauers, due to the maintenance cost of the Browning?

HB

Variable sights? I didn't know the Browning had sights. Not that they would be much use anyway; I used shut my eyes at the point of trigger squeeze and hope that big fat 9mm thingy would end up somewhere in the butts.

Pencil shooting was far safer.

Mr B

Nothing to do with maintenance cost. It was to due to the perception that the browning was too big for a FJ cockpit!

A bit like some of the crews that used to cary it...

Mr B

Ds,

The SS is more or less the same size as the Browning, if not slightly bulkier!

Yep. But it's a new and shiney toy for an element of the RAF that has/had money to spend. Note I said perception that it was too big!

Can I ask just how useful the sidearm was for the the two Johnnies after they ejected in GW I and found themselves amid the Iraqi defenders?

"Remember, John..."

"Yes, John..."

"Save the last round for yourself..."

Better still, offer it up as a souvenir. Or throw it at them - more chance of hitting something and inflicting damage.

Mr B

Ds,

Perception noted; however, it is the Small Arms IPT ( or whatever it is now called), which procure the weapon for the 'Defence Requirement'. It is cost prohibitive to have an aircrew specific weapon; therefore we get what we're given! Hence the phasing out of the Browning and the introduction of the SS.

Got a Browning into a Jag cockpit no problems; mind you I was less bulky myself then!

Who writes the requirement? Who skewed it towards a Sig?

Anyways a moot point as Sigs aren't replaceing all aircrew weapons. The winner of the current procurement for a future pistol will. About 8 different pizzles in the running....

I would yet again most ardently recommend the 1848 .44 Colt Dragoon, if for no other reason than its' entertainment factor..........

HB

The Walther came in after a coupe of Falklands war ejectees left them behind after the weight of the Browning broke the weedy strap of the holster. Someone though it better to buy new guns than buy stronger holsters. The first unit to get the James Bond toy was 1 Sqn. They all turned up to the range to do thier training wearing DJs :rolleyes:

It will no doubt come as a surprise to today's sandaholic aircrew that we 'cold warriors' weren't actually issued with gats which required you to shove the ammuntion in from the far end:


Browing 9 mill was fine - and excellent fun if you sneaked a few extra springs and oily bits of black metal into some unsuspecting mate's pile of gun parts during annual playtime with the long-suffering Stn Rocks.

Personally, I'd go with Mr Vinnie Jones (aka Bullet Tooth Tony):


Just don't fire it like this:

Finningley 1976.

The V-Force dispersed and 8 Vulcans' pitched up at FY.

10 crews (2 by MT) all locked in the secret Briefing Room planning their daring do's.

After the briefing, the crews scrambled to their aircraft.

Leaving (the then) SAC Taxydual to find 5 aircrew Browning gats under the planning desks.

Whoops.

Min/Maxival - long periods of inactivity in the PBF - bored with shooting pen tops at each other (tops a perfect 9mm); competition to see how long you can make your Browning when you re-assemble; must be over 2ft but wobbles a lot.

On one of the first Minivals at Lyneham, we were given our Brownings sealed in stiff poly-bag with strict instructions not to open it.

I think it was Colin Low or Al Otton (I am willing to be corrected) that managed to field strip it without opening the bag - class!

What's French for panache . . . ?

RUBBISH!

Having owned both a Browning MkIII as well as a SiG Saur P226, and having shot at high levels of competition (both 'Service Pistol' as well as 'Practical Pistol'), the Sig was far more accurate, as well as far better made, and far more reliable.

A friend of mine who had only ever shot revolvers was popping in 1"-2" groups at 25m with my SiG first time out.




Now, if you had said Glocks are plasticy I might have agreed.....

Taceval - June 81 at that fighter station on a hill just south of the Humber. Team arrives not at 00silly, but lunchtime. STO Team leader went on to (much) higher things, but had arrived determined to wring the place out. Hands Sterling SMG to my OC Admin - lovely chap, but not much bothered with weaponry. Can you strip and reassemble this please says soon to be Scottish Gp Capt. OC Handbrake House turns the thing over a couple of times, replies "No" and gives to me. "You were in the TA", he says, you can do it". One of the quickest and best bits of delegation I ever saw.

I was about to start 'chopsing off' about the handgun ban in the UK, imposed in the wake of the 1996 Dunblane Massacre of the Innocents.

I have just read the Wiki account of this dreadful event to re-acquaint myself with the details; I now feel physically sick.

I have a 5yr-old grandson; the 16 children shot were this age. They would have now been 20yr-old adults. Their brave lady teacher was also killed by Hamilton. Apologies for the most appalling thread drift, but I'm feeling a bit tender.

Anybody care to discuss?

HB (ex-shooter)

HB, I understand why you have brought this up and I think you were right to do so, even if it is thread drift. What happened doesn't bear thinking about and I only hope they were too young to understand what was going on.

I've often wondered what became of those tasked with cleaning up and investigating after the incident. It must have seriously messed them up, no matter how professional they are.

If the ban has prevented the death of just one child thus far then it has been worth it if you ask me.

Sure has.

Sri Lankan girl, 5, becomes Britain's youngest gun-crime victim

Gangland author Dave Courtney's stepson shot dead - Crime, UK - The Independent

Teenager shot dead in south London gangland hit - Crime, UK - The Independent

Latest news, comment and reviews from the Guardian | guardian.co.uk


It's not the inanimate object but the hand that wields it.

Sig won on many counts and cost is one of the bigger ones. Another is the fact you only operate the trigger if you want the thing to go bang. Unfortunately, the Browning requires you to operate the trigger as part of the unload drill....which every now and then becomes a loud unload drill and that'll be 28 days pay thank you very much.

Recently I was invited to take part in a range day with fellow foreign colleagues conducted by my host nation army. I dug out my DPMs, turned up at the excellent range - seats, sun shelters, cafe, nice and relaxed. It wwas also sunny and not raining.

The Famil consisted of this with the rifle (in heavily accented Engrish):

"This is the sharp end, the blunt end, cocking lever, safety catch and selector, magazine catch and optical sight. OK? Let's shoot."

The Pistol famil was even shorter (a lovely HK but with a massive trigger pull in double action) - again in heavily accented Engrish:

''Has you shot pistol before?" "Yes". "Here's magazine hit target when they pop [up]".

For once I wasn't worried about fluffing the drills and was able to concentrate on the shooting, winning a naff lanyard for my troubles - to join the box of station shields, tankards, framed pictures of long-withdrawn aircraft that sits, hmm, under the stairs I think?

PP was for aircrew. James Bond used the PPK. My go with the PP on the range, the bullet didn't go through the cardboard target! I'm told that in Goose Green it was no longer carried as a survival (anti-grizzly bear) weapon as required by law. Instead, you were given a letter explaing to the Sherrif why you weren't carrying a gun while off road!

Grizzlies in Goose Green? That must have been a loooong time ago. :E

Quote:
They fail to realise that the Browning is actually the better pistol, Sigs are plasticy, high maintenance and not suited to abuse.
RUBBISH!

Having owned both a Browning MkIII as well as a SiG Saur P226, and having shot at high levels of competition (both 'Service Pistol' as well as 'Practical Pistol'), the Sig was far more accurate, as well as far better made, and far more reliable.

A friend of mine who had only ever shot revolvers was popping in 1"-2" groups at 25m with my SiG first time out.




Now, if you had said Glocks are plasticy I might have agreed.....

Ex Ascoteer. It may be worth remembering that most of the folks here barely know one end of a pistol from the other, so may not appreciate just what a wonderful weapon the Sig is.

I find it odd that aircrew complained that they had a 'girls gun', yet still slate the weapon the SAS/SBS chose to replace the Browning with as no good!

I fired a fair few rounds through both the 9mm and 10mm Glock and I must admit they do come across as a bit plasticy (is that a word?).

But they carry a LOT of ammo, 'quantity has a quality all of its own' etc.

If Hereford chose the Sig, I would reckon it must have advantages over the ubiquitous Browning.

Mind you, for loudness - the .357 Magnum frightened me fartless when I fired that after the Glocks!!

What else do you do when on standby in Orlando for a week . . . (other than Hooters of course ;o)

The Sig's big advantage over the Browning is its double action and no safety, just a de-cocking lever. This means you can leave one up the spout, de-cocked, in the holster and then draw and fire without messing with the slider.

Great for a quick shoot. Turning into the new side arm for all I believe.

Now then, fairs fair, the Walther PP, something in a 7.68mm, 10 rounds of zero stopping power. Rubbish, but the idea was cap the nearest bad guy with a decent rifle and take that, or place barrel on temple.....nuff said.

We got hold of a bunch of P226s on the back of a UOR iirc, but there maybe a bulk purchase going on. Still, decent gat with plenty stopping power.

Not unless it wins the current procurement contest it wont be, it is one of a number of options.

First part is correct, second isn't, see above.

7.65 actually :8

There ain't no such thing as too much gun!

I assume your reference is to the legendary M 1911. It was designed/selected not for buffalo hunting but with the intent of stopping and killing Moro warriors during the Philippine/American War. The US Army had found out to its cost that its tried and trusted 38 revolver was not enough gun for the job.

One suspects the Colt may well be better at actually doing some damage that these modern Sigs and PPK things.

The Walther PP (PPK) was made available to the military by the Diplomatic Protection Group after one jammed whilst someone attempted to kidnap Princess Anne in 1974. It was later suggested that the problem was user generated.

Apparantly..

When I flew Pumas in Ireland in the seventies we used to carry a personal weapon. My experiences with the 9mm Browning proved that I could not hit a aircraft hanger even if I was inside it. I then carried a SLR stacked in the cockpit behind me with two magazines holding twenty rounds each. The theory was that if I was deposited into bandit country the noise from the first round would be more than sufficient to keep any enthusiastic Provos at a safe distance. I was comfortable with this because in a previous life I had served in the Rhodesian Army as a sqaddie so I was taught to blow the drawing pins through the target at two hundred yards with various rifles.

One day we had to pick up a Navy diver suffering from the bends in Loch Erne and take him Edinburgh. This involved a low level flight through Glasgow and the central belt. We carried on to Leuchers and night stop because we had been flying all day. We arrived at about 18.00 hrs and when the aircraft had been tidied I asked for the duty armourer to take custody of our personal weapons for the night. Not a difficult question, one would think, at a first line Defence of the Realm fighter station.

There wasn't one. The only armourer was for missiles and sparky things like that; nobody to handle shooters. Eventually the line chief said he would lock them up in a cupboard for us but first he wanted to know how much ammo we had. I showed hin the magazines and pressed on the top round to show that they were full with twenty. He did not understand this so I had to unload both the magazines on the table through the breech. As I had mentioned before I was used to handling rifles and light machine guns but if I was the minimum trained average RAF person there would have been no doubt that one of the rounds would have gone off. The expressions on the other occupants of the room were a joy to behold and for some reason he did not require my co-pilot and crewman to do the same thing.

Previous to that in Borneo we were issued with a Smith & Wesson .38 revolver and a small cardboard box with twelve rounds dating from 1944. In a Forward Operating Base there was a source of a few more rounds and we could use these as target practice. Shooting against a reasonable breeze you could see the bullet en-route. There was unlimited quantities of 9 mm. ammo available from the Gurkhas which was an almost indentical diameter as the .38 but it required a dodge so it would work.

The S & M chamber was designed for rimmed ammo so the 9 mm rimless would just slide forward when the firing pin hit it. The Whirlwind helicopter rotor blade leading edges required a thick black fabric based sticky tape to protect it against erosion. This could be torn into approx 4 mm strips and a few turns would fill the indent and then stack it so that it prevented the round would being pushed forward. This worked a treat! The 9 mm charge had to fire the round and reload as well so the pop was replaced by a bang and the enhanced kick from the gun confirmed it; six rounds into a fuel drum at 50 yards was easy. The only problem was that to unload it one had to swing out the chamber and poke out the cases with a screwdriver as the extractor claws would not grip the sticky tape.

Whether it effected the barrel I do not know. I sent a couple of hundred through it without any problems and when I had finished with it that war was over so it was not required any more.

AFAIK the SS P226 weren't purchased for or by the RAF but were surplus from another service who have since moved on to newer pistols.