Project Sirius - Divisive or what?
 

Those still serving will have received (I hope) a briefing on Project Sirius which, inter alia, established a Main Stream and an Executive Stream for each branch (excluding medics, chaplains etc). In essence if you are selected for ACSC you are elevated to the Executive Stream and do shorter, career enhancing tours, whereas the Main Stream do 3-5 year tours, for 'stability and continuity'.

Although I will be leaving shortly (and thus beyond this malarky), I do have some concerns about Project Sirius. Will the Main Stream (which thins out at Wg Cdr) be essentially looked upon as the Mong Branch, whereas the Executive Branch will be the Chisellers? Will it also mean that Mong, sorry, I mean Main Stream officers become increasingly inelligible for CEA, for example? I suppose one could argue, would they need it? What about overseas NATO appointments? These are generally not regarded as career-enhancing so will Mongs be sent abroad for longer tours and thus our best and brightest do not get the international exposure? What about very average Sqn Ldrs and Wg Cdrs (and believe me, shock! horror! they do exist) stuck in jobs for too long and doing too much damage. There are also probity issues of some personnel in procument related posts (especially where money is involved) spending (geddit?) too long in post.

Will the knives be out amongst the Sqn Ldrs to ensure they are selected for ACSC and therefore possible promotion to Gp Capt? What will it do to espirit de corps amoungst our more junior officers?

I can't help but think that this is a Staff College solution to a problem that doesn't really exist; instead it will create a degree of career apartheid that isn't very helpful in a shrinking service.

Thoughts?

Until the late 1960's, the RAF operated 'General' and 'Supplementary' Lists. Those on the General List were graduates of the (then) 3 year cadet course at Cranwell, together with officers selected to be transferred from the Supplementary List because they were thought to 'have the right stuff'.

Supplementary List officers were only guaranteed a career to their 38/16 year point but could be 'assimilated' to serve beyond 38/16. Promotion to squadron leader was usually (but not always) accompanied by a transfer from one list to t'other.

For aircrew, a range of short service commissions existed IIRC; 5, 8 or 12 years. Serving airmen/women under age ?? were commissioned into the Supplementary List but over that age they became 'Branch officers' and their promotion was generally limited. Specialist aircrew came along during the '60s, I think, but before then, if you were aircrew and reached age 47, horrible things would happen to you, like your flying pay went down or you lost the lot and became an air trafficer!!

The separate lists were seen not to meet the requirements of a modern air force and they were merged in circa 1969/70. The 3 year Cranwell course was discontinued in about 1972, the graduate entry scheme was all the rage at this time and it was to graduates that the remaining bits of 'preferment' were given.

Sorry for the history lesson - but what goes around comes around. Would be interested to see the rationale for this latest change.

Old Duffer

To play devils advocate, there could be those who are quite happy to settle in an area and school their kids without having to up sticks every 2 years. Wife could get a job and make up the difference. Could even be tax efficient if one remained just below 40% threshold.

Meanwhile, all the career knobbers could carry on working stupid hours, disappearing up their own jacksies doing secondary duties etc. What that option doesn't solve is the accountability of someone who comes in and screws everyone over for 2 years to make him/herself look good and leaves a goat for the next poor sucker to take over.

I think another thing which needs to be taken into account for the Main Stream is whether they even have an option to opt in or out of the Executive Stream. If not, your Desk Officer is effectively telling you to give up all hopes of a career and just take the money! The plum jobs will be filled by the Exec stream, leaving the naff ones for everyone else. In addition, what if you are posted to a job which you did not want, in an area which you did not want to be posted to and are told to suck it up for 5 years! You would surely have to opt in to such a scheme to be prepared for such an eventuality, rather than be at the whim of a incompetent desk officer who sends you to, say Lossie, for 5 years because he either ballsed up or couldn't be bothered; 'Service need, get on with it'. May lead to a lot of PVRs (or is that the point......?)

I forgot to mention that a retired AVM had an office at Cranwell and spent an awful lot of time reading 1369s (of fond memory) to pick out the really high flyers from their confidential reports.

What happens when an officer in the Executive stream fails? Does he get pushed into the mainstream?

Will the Executive Stream contain a certain percentage of the Main Stream?

How will the system cope when the guys in the Executive Stream decide that it's not for them anymore and leave/PVR?

In my experience any formal segregation into streams will be divisive. Everybody knows that the desk officers and their bosses know who the stars are and manage their careers accordingly. We also know that there are some who are groomed for stardom and then something happens and they fall by the wayside.

I'm not sure the current system of open reporting is conducive to producing reports of sufficient objectivity and two other points: first, the manning plot never works out as planned and there are spikes and troughs which will thwart (as they always have done) any attempt to be too precise about the numbers game and secondly, are there sufficient jobs to allow the streaming system to work across the current Branch structure because it will certainly cause problems with 'best boy/girl for the job' when you get to top echelons.

Old Duffer

High Spirits - there will be those who are happy not to progress beyond Sqn Ldr for personal (and professional) reasons and spouse income/career will probably be a major driver. But I think that a lot of driftwood will be depositied in the shallow estuaries of main stream posts.

Grumpy - I share your concern that the duff jobs will be left to the duffers, and that the choice will be substantially reduced. I enjoyed my tours in Town and I would urge any officer from Sqn Ldr up to not to be put off by the naysayers about MB tours. But from 1 Sep, these will largely be the province of the Thrusters.

You never know somebody might want become Duff Man one day. Somebody will have to do it when he retires.

WNH and O-D,
There are (sadly) a lot of sh1t jobs for officers in the military. As for failure in the exec stream, what is that? Surely there can be only one, or 2 ( if we get a CDS) who haven't ultimately failed the career game. I'm 50:50 on this, it's a bit divisive I agree but we do not live in an ideal world. If we did, I would be 2i/c to Hugh Heffner with no career competition....

More important to have a laugh than walk around with a corn cob up one's ass.

Which brings us back on topic - I'd rather be a mong than a chiseling toss-pot.

Any word on non executive stream getting stuck in a bounty desk role and losing fp after year 2? Seems a no brainer. Doss round, fly loads, pvr to the airlines or even management. Sqn ldr pay... Pah. Not worth half the stress IMHO.

There are of course the people that decide on a late career push. They would be disenfranchised under the new system as they would already be in the mong class.

So if you find yourself in the Retard stream, then you can just be a retard:

• I need a paper on blah by COP. Err, no. I'll draw you a few pictures and thumbprint it, but that's all.
  
• I need a volunteer to be PMC. Err, cluck off.
  
• I need you to draft me a policy on blah. OK, here a load of tosh blah, best I can boverred to do.
  
• We need someone to attend the AMP dinner in the mess. Nope, not me thanks.

Sorry, but if I'm going to be a retard, then I'll be a retard. :E

Labels can be dangerous
 

I don't really understand what the difference is from today except for the idea of labelling someone as ES or MS. We all know if you want to get on, you have to strive for ACSC and if you don't your chances of promotion are more limted, especially if one is aiming for stars.

The only advantage i can see is it makes the desks' job easier in by identifying ES only posts vice MS only posts. It also will add greater granularity to promotion boards:

Chairman of the Promotion Board: "well, now we've done the ES OJARs I suppose we should look at the MS dossers"

The other advantage is it's easier for desky to explain to someone why they've been looked over for promotion again, despite being very experienced and performing well in post:

Desky: "It's becasue you're MS not ES"

Let's just see if the MS/ES is applied to allowances or any other items, or if it's confined to career management.

H

ROFL... you couldn’t make it up if you tried, no really you couldn’t.

Wait out for the first 'disenfranchised' mong/retard to save up enough milk tokens* to sign up Kermit chops (wide eyed frog… remember her? Wife off the now ex dear leader) and take it to the European Court of ‘uman rights.


* I would have said beer tokens, but it’s quite obvious only the righteous few under this scheme would be allowed to have anything to do with beer.

I'd like to book a room in the mess please.

Certainly sir, Exec or Mainstream?

Err, main stream.

Oh. Sorry sir, no rooms available. (snigger) But we do have the mong's cowshed out the back.

Excellent. I love my job.

Trouble is that the 'continuity' they are taking about for MS is 3-5 years. That ain't settled and does not provide for continuity for children in schools (which appears to be part of the point of this). So, all you will have is a pissed off cadre who know they won't get promoted and will get all the sh!te jobs....don't forget the CinC and CDS value us (we have been told over the past 2 days....)! :hmm:

Project SIRIUS and its potential on my job fullfilment, flying pay and CEA was a major factor on my sourcing another job and starting Early Termination. It was the final, and possibly deepest, of a thousand cuts that told me "enough is enough".

My Immediate Pension lump sum will pay for the nipper's education and I have a £45k per year job in the bag plus my pension, which means that I am back on what I was on prior to leaving. Less stress and doing something I ENJOY, it was no-brainer!

Shame really, as up to that point I thought I had a career still to play for. With a B+ "Yes" on my last OJAR and less than 3 years in rank, I thought I might be in with a shout for a flying-related command tour. But without ACSC and Project SIRIUS pushing me into Mong Stream, I realised it was game over. Also, CEA and a loss of flying pay a distinct possibility to boot.

As I said on the other PVR thread - it has been a death of a thousand cuts for me.

LJ

If you get on mong-stream early enough, can you get a bye from ICSC. No point wasting 2 months on that hoop for the inept surely?

If only! ICSC should in theory be done in the first 12 months of being a sqn ldr - yes I know that many try and put it off for as long as possible. However from a recent briefing from Manning, selection for Brown Nose stream is done through the same board / at the same time as the wg cdr / ACSC board so you will have to have done ICSC to even be in the running for a career.

If you are a sqn ldr selected to become a Brown Nose, you will go off to ACSC, possibly get promoted to wg cdr if they can find a job for you (apparently there are no guarantees that all of the next bunch going through ACSC will get wg cdr due to the cuts), and then have 9 years to get promoted to gp capt. You get a review at the 5 yr point and if you haven't picked up by the 9 yr point you get chopped and go back to being a Mong.

So in theory, you could give it your all, sacrifice family life etc for a shot at a career only to be knobbled by the numbers game and sent back to Mongdom, all for nought. You can imagine how that conversation will go with the family when you get home having found out you have given up almost a decade of family life for nothing. Alternatively you can VW from being a Brown Nose and go back to shovelling sh!te around an open plan office somewhere. Attractive options eh.

Apparently I am a mong too due to time in rank. The bloke I sit with is the same age and joined at the same time as me but got promoted later; so with less time in rank he made the chiseler list. He laughed at me and I laughed at him.

So for the briefest of moments the new system brought a welcomed moment of mirth whilst Rome continued to burn around us.

Oh well, not sure it'll make much difference. The chisellers will still be chisellers, those destined for CAS will still be CAS, and I'll still prop up the bar at happy hour and drink too much beater, and be quite happy...

No-one has mentioned the name Sirius yet.....

So are you a star or the dog....

I know I shouldn't laugh but from a baldrick point of view this is as funny as ****, the notion that the vast majority of the officer cadre are going to officially be labelled as mongs.......

Please, don't shout but if you look at it from outside the box its 'kin hilarious :p

This MS/ES is not really a change, it's how your Appointers have been operating for ages. They have simply put it down in writing and now all have a better understanding of where they really sit - no bad thing and it'll help many make decisions with more realistic information. There will always be problems and issues with this system, as with any other, but at least you all know where you stand.

I think this just formalises a system that has been in place for a long time anyway. During my recent trawl for an interesting next posting I found a range of jobs that I was both keen to do and eminently qualified for. Each one had either already been reserved for a new ACSC Grad (as opposed to an old one like me and regardless of the actual experience or quals required), or was 'too punchy' for my profile. Sirius simply acknowledges how things really work and is, I think, more honest. I was, though, very disappointed that it seemed the only criteria as to whether I was suitable for a job was if my posting date coincided with the new post's availability date. My previous experience and/or aspirations never came into the equation and were not mentioned. If that is how the Main Stream is going to be managed, then I don't have a good feeling that it is going to work.

I decided there was no point being bitter - we are in a tough profession with tough rules. I consciously decided not to jump through some of the hoops placed in my way and I have to accept the consequences. As a result I can still face myself in the mirror and look colleagues in the eye with some element of self pride. I have had a great time overall and when I leave I will look back on my time in the RAF with nothing but pleasure

I think a more interesting question is - is the system fit for purpose in terms of producing the kind of leaders we need in the modern world? For a few years now, the more I have seen of very senior officers, the less I have liked them. They seem to be overwhelmingly driven by self interest rather than that of the Service or even the country. It's quite a while since I came away from a close encounter thinking 'wow! I'd like to work for them'. All the good guys are either applying for redundancy, taking options, or PVRing. If things go on this way, there will only be 'chisellers' left. And they don't care about the rest of us, and the backstabbing as they fight each other for a chance at the top is going to be awesome.

Fly safe.

Watch out for more things coming out with '9 years' mentioned. I hear the 'new employment model' is going to be 9 years extension of service on promotion and in that time you are either Promoted or it's the highway.

Blagger

I too have heard that rumour, but I just don't see how it will work. Who will do the essential but non-career enhancing jobs? That said, attitudes to careers have changed markedly since I joined and many now aren't actually interested in staying in long term - it's more like getting the life experience tick for a few years then moving on to something new.

It does change a big thing in my opinion. I was promoted to Wg Cdr without going to ACSC - so were quite a few of my mates. That is, quite simply, not going to happen anymore.

The new SIRIUS system as I read it is:

ACSC + Wg Cdr = good chance of further

ACSC + Sqn Ldr = fair chance of further

No ACSC + Wg Cdr = no chance but a reasonable pension at 55 (and this will no longer happen)

No ACSC + Sqn Ldr = do not pass Go and do no collect £200 - you're f^cked

The B Word

Sirius - "The Brightest Star in The Sky". I have one comment in a John McEnroe kind of accent:

"You cannot be sirius"

Reserves
 

Given the recent news about a greater use of reserves, is there a hidden agenda in here somewhere?

At present, there are four (?) classes of reserves FC, HC, LC plus the Class CC, the latter being paid as civil servants but still holding a commission and being gazetted. Many Full Time Reserve Service posts are filled by guys and gals who still want to be in 'the business' but on terms which suit them.

It seems that many more posts might be designated for FTRS candidates and this would reduce the size of the Main Stream pool.

I do, however, think it dangerous to compartmentalise people. I know of many who are good leaders but hopeless staff officers and others who are the reverse. I also have a concern that, at present, there are insufficient ACSC places to service the need for Executive Stream appointments.

Given the overwhelming problems being faced by the armed forces at present, I would urge caution about introducing a new career grading system just now.

Old Duffer

Old D,
Your concern is well stated; however, the system already employs an ES/MS structure in all but name. When the ES barrel runs dry, they will find a keen MS body to fill the slot - just as they do now.

I haven't had such a good laugh on a Service matter for a very long time! The responses have been superb.

I think we all accept that a 2 or 3 stream system has been operating for many years - indeed, in the past more formal that perhaps this Serious (oops! Sirius) plan. We all know officers who wouldn't cut the mustard in senior staff tours and vice versa. I'm sure most of us also remember bright young things who, as junior officers, were clearly destined for a bright future and rapidly outstripped their contemporaries. However, what I suspect officers will object to (and it is a human behaviour thing) is to be labelled as 'special'.
Why the need to label otherwise enthusiastic, loyal and probably still-ambitious officers? It's like being given news about a slow, linger but ultimately terminal disease (and I should know). 'You might make it to Wing Commander, but chances are pretty slim these days'.

Whenurhappy,

You too are right, but this is what happens now:


Desk Officer: 'Sqn Ldr Bloggs. I regret that you were unsuccessful in your last look at AST because of your age of 43 [can I say that?][system now considers that you are relative slow runner - but you don't know it officially]. Don't worry, we've got a really good job supervising the digitising of historic engineering records at Llangolligoch. You'll be happy there - at least 2 years - that means your [spouse/civil partner] can't settle down and get a job'.

'But wasn't I being boarded to be Assisitant Air Attache in DC?'
'Ahh yes, we thought about that, but I am afraid that's a thruster's job thus you are no longer suitable for it'.
'Any other news?'
'Well, funny you say that, we are looking for a chap with your experience to help the Afghan Air Force digitize their Soviet-era records. Kabul's not a bad place, you know, and this tour would look good on your profile.'

With the new system, you will be better placed to make life decisions.

How many times on this website have we seen people complain that they are being moved too frequently? Either it screws up their personal circumstances or it screws up continuity for the post itself.

As has been pointed out, there always has been an unofficial 2-tier system. If you didn't know which tier you were in, then you were in the lower one! But the RAF continued with the pretence that everyone had a fair shot at being CAS and thus needed to be moved every 2 years.

This seems a genuine attempt to give people stability, while still providing the rapid movement that is deemed essential for those destined for the top (tho' I'm not convinced such rapid rotation makes for a good senior officer - maybe that's why so many of them just go round in circles).

Yes, some people are going to be hacked off with being labelled. But hang on, the first thing we do when we meet someone new is look at their shoulders and then look at their chest (unless she's female, in which case the order is probably reversed). We've then instantly pigeonholed them anyway!

Ultimately, the idea's not a bad attempt - a solid B+, Yes. But the real judgement on whether this is a Mong or a Chisseler of an idea will be based on the detail of its implementation.

As far as I can see the only people who need to dry their eyes are the mongs who are deluded enough to want to be a chiseler or think they already are one.

B Word

There is one you missed out:

ACSC (pass - C & below) + Wg Cdr = really f$%^ed

The desk officer will not be interested at all, after all.............. he will be a mong:rolleyes:

"Who will do the essential but non-career enhancing jobs?"



Historically, thats always been the dubious pleasure - nay, the raison d'etre, even - of the non-commissioned/oik side of the house... :E



The "9 yrs to get to the next rank or GTFO" has been a pleasure known to them for years. Granted they then get 13 years to get to Sgt or GTFO, then another 7 to Flt Sgt or GTFO and so on... but the principle remains the same.

Or rather they used to when I was in... :oh:


Then again, considering how many of 'em are being outsourced to BAe or Serco/made redundant in order to create McJobs to keep the local knuckle draggers/sorry, Labour voting client state/Civil servants off the dole, maybe these pleasures will then fall into their laps instead...

WW hits the nail bang on the head and there are plenty of them (I know I am firmly ensconced in the MS). But those people still have hope, a cursory look at who's attended recent ACSCs would suggest that one or two slip through the net.

The difference is all the mong/chiseler's get promoted to SL and suddenly get vision's of grandeur and a career. In reality it's the first 'earned' promotion they have had and some think they are on the fast track to CDS! It is the equivalent to the 'oiks' Cpl a rank where you learn not to be a plank for the future :cool: