As Sirius is implemented, I hope that those officers on the ES stream who are selected as a Sqn cdr don't forget that it is a privilege! Moreover, if the honour to command men on operations becomes just a stepping stone to the next rank, then I think we may have truly lost the plot!

Fast jet mates stand by. Our future leaders will need to fly in fast jet cockpits so that they can prove their mettle; if you are on the B stream then you will have one shot and then probably be sidelined. Stand by for lots of "but now you can only fly as an instructor at EFT or on a UAS" followed by the offer of a less than ideal ground tour, unless you can argue that you need that fast jet cockpit to enhance your career. This probably applies to those who are on PA Spine as well, come to think of it.....!

I understand that the intention is for MS to spend 3-5 years on a tour providing stability for the also rans. That's great if it's in a location that suits. But what about if you're spammed with that amount of time away from home - living in a 12x6 box several hundred miles away from the family. 2 years, maybe... but up to 5? Absolute pile of poo.

As someone who joined under just such a system, I have to say that I thought it was far better for everybody.
The RN had SL shags, and GL w@nkers. Everybody knew who was who, and everybody was happy.
The current system just makes lots of people who are really shags at heart try to become w@nkers just because it is a challenge, even though they know that they are happier with friends and a life.

Jabba

I am on record on this forum as a defender of the concept of mutual respect, regardless of individual Service history; check out my posts if you will. The use of the term 'oik', in the manner in which you have used it, is not acceptable, and will be viewed as offensive by many amongst this community. I expect better than this from a holder of the Queen's Commission.

For your information, NCO's also once had a 'career development path'; we were not simply there to wipe the backsides of a never-ending stream of cherubic Cranwell graduates.

HB

Is this not just a minor extension of the change that took place about 6 years ago when the GD Branch became open to every officer when he/she reached wing commander and the old GD Branch became the Flying Branch.

Just seems like a variation on an already existing theme to my mind!

Foldie:ok:

I've just come to this thread having been on the road for a few days, so will chuck in a couple of comments.

Agree with O-D that it's in many ways a return to the old GL/SL route which we used to have - perhaps we should bring back the B exam and get 38 yo Fg Offs again.

The "fast runner" system which was used when I was a desky was purely age-on-promotion based, with no sign of an eminence grise retired AVM. IIRC if you were a Sqn Ldr before 30, Wg Cdr before 35 and/or Gp Capt before 40 you were a "fast runner" - which means if nothing else you had the time to make 2-star.

So you could get on or off the list by being promoted or not at a given age. people could (and did) fall off it and climb back on again. In practice it meant that postings had to be approved one rank higher than normal. I used to post sqn ldrs, whose posting was normally approved by the DD (a gp capt). For a fast runner it had to get the one-star tick. I believe that mutatis mutandis this system (2 ranks up for normal, 3 ranks up for "FR") continued up the system, so a fast running wg cdr would have his posting approved by Air Sec and an FR gp capt by AMP.

And another thing O-D, on your mention of reservists various! There are some RAFR (CC) remaining - ;) - but the branch is no longer recruited to, so will in due course wither on the vine......

...and finally ...

dctyke ... checked the C-in-C's CV lately .....?

TTH,

Shock, Horror, Probe!!! No more RAFR (CC) :{ That could mean that the last one gets stuffed and mounted in a glass case at the RAF Museum ......

I wonder who that will be? :)

Old Duffer

...as there is no longer a proper Air Force List it is difficult to judge the field in order to run a book ....... :(

H-B:

Please accept my apology if I offended you, that was certainly not the intention. I can confirm that if nothing else that my entry was meant to be self-deprecating as I completed my service without ever holding the Queens Commission (I left as a Cpl because of dead mans shoes promotion in my trade), although this was indeed the career path I originally intended to follow. As I have said before on deep reflection, there is very little if anything at all that I would change about my time in the RAF, apart from making better use of the educational facilities earlier, but in all honesty, I got out what I put in. And for that, I have absolutely no complaint whatsoever because it has stood me in good stead compared to my non ex-military peers.

Such is the dark humour of the Other Ranks sometimes (particularly of my Cold War generation), but again, I assure you, no slur or offence was intended.

I can assure you my tongue was so far into my cynical cheek that it has indeed finally given me a mouth ulcer. Maybe there is such a thing as Karma after all. ;)

And as I've said on another post, what with 7000 civilianised posts going, maybe a lot of these things are starting to come back full circle. The next few years to 2020 are going to be.... interesting.

Jabba

This is clearly an oik own-goal.

I could spit.

Take a week's bedpacks.

HB

Certainly H-B.





Where would you like me to take them to? :}

Essentially, getting on the promotion ladder for an RAF pilot (I guess ES from here onward) is like investing in a pyramid scheme. Statistically you may realise a profit over the long run, but unless you're very smart/lucky, the odds suggest you are most likely to take a financial bath compared to what you might have earned in that second career you could have had with the airlines.

I'd be interested to see the comparative remuneration (including pension) between leaving at 38 and going to a major airline versus staying in and seeing how far up the greasy pole you could climb. At a rough guess you must need to get to Gp Capt as a minimum to realise the same sort of money?

Anyone done this calculation?

FJH - I think that's about right - unless the Gp Capt has 3 kids on CEA and then you would need to be a Fleet Manager to earn the equivalent.

A Gp Capt with three kids on CEA, overseas posting, mortgage, car loan etc...likely to be near backrupt!

Back to the topic - do posters beleive that this new system overs any clear advantages to anyone?

Especially if a Staion Commander and expected to"entertain" on naf-all entertainment allowance. I have seen a couple of COs nearly go own tha pan that way.

Well all you Crandistan escapees are to be known as chisellers or mongs -
Us oiks have similar names or worse for you....

Sadly I met far too many chisellers and not enough mongs.
If you want to be a mong - be a mong and have fun - being a chiseller is just not worth the extra garbage...

"Chiseller" and "mong" are new to me: it's an "age" thing I expect. Anyone care to enlighten me (and, no doubt, others)

I believe they are members of a popular music band, M'lud.

Is that the same as a 'popular beat combo', m'lud?

Now that Sirius is meant to be in full swing (I think), has anyone started to see DOs offering 3+ year tours for PS?

BUS
 

Re your last post -Do you mean like spec aircrew?

Rgds SOS

SOSL,

Spec Aircrew clearly only works for, erm, aircrew! What about all the other branches where MS officers could now find themselves on level 9 for a considerable number of years. Hold that thought, maybe NEM will see MS officers chopped at the end of the level 9 year as a new method of outflow!?

Part of a big drive that's been going on for many years. It's just that now is not the time for this obviously devisive (as the OP said) 'new' iniciative. It keeps going down hill.

The system will not work in my eyes. Too divisive and there are not enough positions available for the Exec stream to make it all viable. I can see a situation where a so called 'mong' who's happy say in his OC BSW job at RAF Snoring, where manning said he could be for 5 years, being moved on by an Exec stream needing a promotion tick.

It will create a 2 tier air force of haves and have nots. The whole manning system is opaque and the rules seem to change as personalities change.

The pyramid only allows for a few jobs at the top and desk officers should have should have a better system for identifying those people. Reporting officers need to be more realistic and honest when writing reports instead of blowing smoke up people's ar$es. There is too much weak leadership where 'mates' fail to report on their subordinates correctly as they don't want to upset the apple cart or face any conflict - so they usually capitulate.

There are too many people vying for the same top jobs when that prospect is untenable to most. If manning were able to give people realistic career ceilings and guidance - ie, "you are 34, you have not done an op tour, you don't have a Masters, you have not done any professional development and your reports are average - you only have the max reach for Wg Cdr in your time left' then I'm sure that the workplace would develop a much better and more amenable culture. This would, in turn, produce a Royal Air Force that was able to meet outputs without breaking the moral contracts that it has with its people. Fewer people would be gunning for promotion courses and 'one-upmanship' over their peers, and maybe then they might concentrate on their day jobs and managing their personnel.

Still, I'm glad to be leaving it all behind...

I've definitely seen a Powerpoint slide somewhere that shows promotion to Sqn Ldr giving service to 38, Wg Cdr to 44, and Gp Capt to 55. Up or out... can't remember what the 'codename' for it is, but it's on the table somewhere!

TWON
 

Dunno. I was Eng (AS).

Anyway, I said "like" spec aircrew. "Like" used as an adverb approximately means "approximately".

Rgds SOS

Haven't the RN been doing this for years - or something similar??

One knows of an RN Cdr who was "binned" under this rule a few years ago - and promptly transferred as a Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldr!! ;)

Interesting for the Exec Stream officer that has his OJAR written by a Mainstream chap who feels bitter about being passed over. Or will the elite only be written up by their fellow elites?

SOSL - Yes I do indeed mean like Spec Aircrew. As alluded to by other posters perhaps this will be used as another manning lever; certainly the prospect of stagnant pay for rather a long time does not fill me with joy. Another bad joke in the long running comedy that is RAF Career Management.

I wonder how long this new system will survive contact with the real world and whether the Mainstream branch will be expected to cope with the churn of Elites/Executives thundering past on their path to glory? My experience in the past with such 'chosen ones' points to the fulfillment of my supposition.....

With an increasing number promoted to SO2 in the late 20s, early 30s, how are these pers going to be usefully employed until they are 55?
Not many will progress, through no fault of their own in some cases. So for over 20 years they will move along from one desk to another producing ......?

Round and round went the ruddy great wheel

In and out . . .

Back before about 1971 there were two pay scales for officers. Your General List man as a flt lt had just 6 increments before he pay stagnated whereas the Supplementary List man had 16 or more every year to age 38 (and out).

With the advent of the Single List the AFPRB recommended doing away with the 16 increments and stagnating flt lt pay after just 6 as they expected flt lt to be picked up to sqn ldr after 5 increments. This was great fror us with TOS to 38/16 as at a stroke we all moved to top flt lt increments if we had done more than 6 years.

I believe similarly sqn ldr and wg cdr increments were also reigned in and flying pay for wg cdr was cut after the 2nd tour point and the same for gp capt.

What you appear to be saying is that the full career increments for Mong should be made, or are you suspecting it will just freeze?

SO2 is not a rank, it is a staff position!

I don't hold that an increasing number of youthful promotions is a problem; they allow Manning to identify career high-flyers early, and give a chance to leave at their mid-career option for those who fail to shine at Sqn Ldr level. That 'chance' might become enforced, as automatic service to 55 for Sqn Ldrs is pretty much guaranteed to disappear in the next few years, IMHO. Some will be 'assimilated' at age 40 but I would expect others to get the boot at that point.

Not entirely sure how that one will work if people are already serving on T&Cs that guarantee them employment to 55 without some sort of payoff. Unless you make future promotees sign up to the principle of up or out by 40 when they accept promotion to sqn ldr, I think that any half decent employment lawyer should be able to challenge such a change to existing T&C.

That said, there will probably be quite a number where the idea of stagnating in rank / pay for 15-20 year isn't appealing and they go of their own volition, so 'bed blocking' might not be an issue. The issue, however, will be how to retain those individuals with critical skill sets and Qs, QWISR for example given the rapidly rising importance of ISR, or those in the more specialist branches which even on a good year don't have rapid promotion. In those cases, an up or out policy might well prove detrimental to the overall capabilities of the service.

Surely the condition is in the next few years. Offer of promotion to sqn ldr may not include automatic assimilation to age 55.

It may be made with no suggestion of any increase in time to serve or maybe with an offer of assimilation to some time in the 40s.

As Melchett says, this may serve as a driver to get people to jump.

Easy Street makes a good point about SO2 not being a rank. I served as an SO2 in uniform and then served as an SO2, as a contractor, in pinstripes.

The difference was, when I was in pinstripes, I was paid shed-loads more for an easier job.

I don't complain because the extra dosh helped me to enjoy my retirement (IIRC!!).

However, it seems a shame that the MOD lays off good, talented men and women, under whatever the latest scheme happens to be and then employs old snakeoil salesmen, like me, at twice the pay.

I agree we're not twice the cost; but even so ....

Rgds SOS

RAF - SDSR - Personnel

Part of NEM I suppose - what will Apollo and Zeus look like?

Whilst SIRIUS is a nod towards career management, from the briefings I sat in on, I'm just not sure how well received it will actually be once implemented. We were briefed that individuals would go on to the Exec Stream at some point during their time as senior sqn ldrs. Once on there, subject to periodic review of continued potential, individuals would be bounced around Defence every 2 years to enable them to get the requisite skill sets and career profile to make it to the highest ranks. Those on the Main Stream would be offered longer postings to give a degree of personal stability and professional continuity, but there may be some 'Main Stream' posts which by their very nature, would attract the high fliers e.g. procurement on longer tours.

However, this still raises a number of issues which I'm not convinced have been, or will be resolved.

An individual on the Exec Stream can be 'demoted' back to the Main Stream after I think it was something like 9 or 10 years (or earlier at their request) if they hadn't picked up. Fair enough, give someone else a chance. However, that means the deck is massively loaded in the Service's favour. How many people would willingly - and enthusiastically - sign up to a scheme whose T&C were basically:

"right Blogs, this is your chance for glory. We're going to thrash you for the next 10 years. Your wife will barely see you, and when she does she will complain about your 3rd move to the other side of country in 6 years and the kids becoming increasingly maladjusted. However, at the end of that 10 years, or sooner if we deem it necessary, we'll just demote you back to MS and you can get on with life. You might get promoted, but then again as the Service is shrinking, you probably won't. Sign here, here and here, oh and here's a good number for a divorce lawyer".

or:

"right Blogs, well done. You've taken everything we can throw at you for 10 years and as a reward, we've earmarked you for the highest reaches of the Air Force. You have bags of potential and really get the job done. There's just one little thing however, we notice from your file that you aren't a pilot and all the jobs we were considering for you need a pair of wings, or at a pinch, an Chartered Engineering status. Terribly sorry old boy, but that's just the way it goes. We might be able to get you to Gp Capt, but afraid that will be it. Thanks for trying though, you've really helped us through a sticky patch in getting Project X up and running. So sorry to hear your wife ran off with the tennis coach by the way "

Either of those sound vaguely attractive to any sane individual who would like a semblance of a normal family life outside of the Service? It's effectively Russian roulette with careers. Some - a very few will win - but for a lot it will be messy and lead to bitterness when it goes wrong. Somehow however, I really can see both those scenarios playing out at some point in the not too distant future.