I'm with Newt (succinct, very well put) and Charlie on this one :)

If younghearts is correct, then the discussion centres on 'two pilots found drunk on detachment'.

Hell fire, they'll be sha**ing nurses next....

Must have been a slow news day then...

Jumpseater,

This might have been the case in the past, but no longer. In industry nowadays you, as an employee, will have been made aware of a drugs and alcohol policy. This policy will include instant dismissal in cases of safety critical roles (some organisations apply this to all staff). Safety critical roles include command roles and decision roles as well as those operating in hazardous environments and or machinery that is dangerous.

I have a few comments to make on this event; first, stop being defensive and think "how do others see us". Next, read the following with that thought in mind.

1/ These gentlemen get to stay in rather plush accommodation out with a combat zone yet operate (whether by decision making, or flying) in a combat zone. How does their behaviour appear in the eyes of those persons (all nationalities) that are in active combat zones?

2/ These gentlemen are leaders, decision makers, pilots. How clever is their decision making going to be, even if they were not flying in the next twenty four hours?

3/ How does the behaviour of these gentlemen make the UK military appear in the eyes of our allies, and those Arabic nations who, as part of a UN mandate, have given us permission to operate in Libya?

4/ Is the high standing that the R.A.F. had in the past continuing to be eroded by acts such as these? If these gentlemen were off duty for the next twenty four hours then perhaps they might have been better remaining in their hotel whilst getting inebriated to such an extent.

hval

and ?

Ghostnav,

And what?

Have you answered the questions truthfully and honestly? I do not need to know your answers. They are for yourself, some healthy introspective thinking perhaps.

Hval

Hval has it right.
These were OFFICERS on an OPERATIONAL DEPLOYMENT who got picked up by the italian rozzers for being drunk and incapable on a PUBLIC street for heaven's sake. They have brought disrepute on themselves, their service and their country.
The group punishment imposed by the chain of command is pointless and infantile and just makes a highly visible bad situation worse.
Not very good publicity for the junior service.

Again, enough jumping to conclusions! They did not get "picked up" by the Italian police. They were not arrested. Does no one else think that for this to be leaked 6 weeks after the event and to be spun in a way that implies there was professional misconduct is wierd? It seems like someone is trying to press the knife in a bit deeper perhaps to justify a somewhat **** decision.

Younghearts:
"They did not get picked up by the italian police". Technically correct. My apologies.

A spokesman for the Italian 'redcaps' said: "They were both the worse for wear after having been on a tour of the bars of Gioia. One was staggering around the piazza while the other was collapsed on the ground.
"They had not caused any problems in the town but had certainly had a lot to drink as the officers involved could not get any sense from them at all". They alerted an RAF liaison officer and they came to pick them up.

I can recall talking to officers at times and also failed to get any sense out of them. And they were sober!
;)

It seems to me that younghearts is trying to tell us something.....

Is it possible that the person responsible for promulgating the "dry detachment" decision is receiving some criticism for it? Trying to justify it to his(or hers) Lords and Masters.....

I am usually reluctant to contribute to threads, like this, that are so full of sanctimonious bull, ill-informed conjecture and unqualified judgement. (Not to mention the little bit of ‘If ya ain’t a fighter pilot ya ain’t s##t childishness.)

Younghearts, however, raises a view that has resonance in my experience.

Whoever these officers are, they have (if the reports are correct) already been punished. RTU is (or was in my time) a serious blemish on a career. If it is, as has been suggested, two senior officers, that blemish might well arrest their careers and waste their potential. The summary imposition of a restriction of privileges to a group of people as an expression of displeasure at the conduct of one or two is not, in my opinion, the mark of an inspiring leader. So, punishments administered – due process observed?

How important is it that the two persons involved came to the notice of the local law officers at 0600 hrs? I seem to recall on ops that my watch went to zulu and my routine was run by ops and my bod. So, it was not unusual to find a group of peeps having their ‘beer o’clock’ at oh four dubs (Zulu, Delta or downtown time).

Who reported that one was sprawling and another staggering? Please define sprawling. Laid in a storm drain wailing for Huey or sitting on a kerbstone waiting for a cab? I seem to recall climbing out of a Phantom after circa 7 hours chasing Red Stars around the oggin and having a very unsteady gait. It is staggering what cramp and knackerdness can do to a man.

One thing I do know is that I advised some youngsters, 30 odd years ago, to be very careful with the Italian police, especially the chaps with the auto carbines that they seemed so keen to show to foreigners. I also remember advising against being rude or inconsiderate to ladies, children or little old fellows who appeared to be destitute peasants but might just be pretending.

Government is done rather differently in different places in the world so it is best not to offend anybody and do your unwinding behind closed doors where only your trusted buddies will see your foolishness.

Yet again, we find so many people keen to assert their omniscient judgement on people based on meagre reports from ‘the press’. Like red light tarts, their aim is to get us over excited so that we will part with money for something not quite so fulfilling as we might first think.

I don’t know what features are prominent in the curriculum of Air Marshal school nowadays but maybe they need to beef up the bits about looking after your dudes and dudettes. The familial happiness of the service has, from time to time, been marred by career anxious commanders who are keen to demonstrate their robust approach to discipline. On occasion, that is taken to gob smackingly daft extremes, but that is covered at the top of the Military Aircrew forum.

Sometimes, being a boss is like being a parent. A quiet word – usually a few questions - explores the issues and a little kind advice can be given. Afterwards, the kids toddle off a little wiser but still thinking Mum / Dad are hopeless out of touch old farts, even if their intentions are good. 30 odd years later, the kids have entirely forgotten the details but, uncannily, find themselves curiously wise when dealing with their own kids’ cock ups.

Other times, and if handled poorly by Mum or Dad, the kids get a strop on and rebel. It would be most unfortunate if summary punishments were contested and commanders were called to account in law. Especially if such commanders found that an auxiliary one-way valve in the loyalty conduit had been installed just above their heads.

hval

It is a story in a so called newspaper. I read stories everyday in my own line of work which are totally inaccurate and I take much of the so called detail with a pinch of salt.

Whatever they did, it is the RAF to sort out. The press like to make much of these sorts of stories to sell newspapers. The more I read in the UK press, the more I despair. The worrying thing is the public believe it!

That's probably because you are incapable of speaking the Queens' English!

Innit...

And you of writing it. ;)

I've only heard the story 3rd-hand, but if it is in any way true, it's fairly shabby given that we have just closed 3 fine Flying Squadrons at Kinloss...

Lightning Mate
And you're incapable of writing it. Apostrophe buffoonery.

Yup I'm a civvy and always have been, and work/worked in safety critical positions and areas within the aviation industry from aircraft manufacturing airfield/airline operations and ATC. As I said for a first offence, being drunk in such a position is not an automatic sacking offence be it someone 'on the line' or a senior manager. The same substance misuse policies also have a duty of care element to them to help a person who has a 'problem'. I also know of rare cases, (two spring to mind), of individuals who have been dismissed, but not without a great deal of care from the companies to make sure the I's are crossed and the T's dotted, and never summarily.

I know of that from first hand experience as a union rep in a previous occupation, and having dealt with the whole cross section of 'issues' from mental health, substance misuse, and racism to name a few of the more 'entertaining' events.

There really is a lot of sanctimonious drivel being spouted on this subject. A couple of mates had a gap in their flying programme and took the opportunity to hang one on. So what?
They sound like more fun to be on a squadron with than a lot of the NATO Potatoes on this forum who see fit to criticise them.
Drinking and flying don't mix, but the happiest squadrons I've flown on have been the ones with plenty of opportunities for both. Is anyone on a fun squadron any more?

Lightning Mate,


She may well be, but her Man's a Greek.

.........No.

Ghostnav,

You have two problems that I perceive; there is the issue that the press have become aware of what occurred. If the gentlemen had carried out their exercise in non sobriety in the hotel they stayed in then no problem. Remember public perception is important. As is the perception of governments who are monitoring the current military activity. Muslim nations really do not like alcohol, nor the visible effects. The perception of those who work in the military elsewhere is also important. I could write much about what those in FB's might feel, but I am sure you understand what they might feel.

The next problem is responsibility, command & leadership.

My apologies for being so brief and not fully responding to your posting.

Hval

@ Jumpseat,

I am aware of a number of organisations of where drinking leads to instant dismissal for those in safety critical roles - as stated previously. The only exception is if you declare your problem with alcohol. Then the organisations shall assist you.

Hval

Aye, you remind me of one glorious exercise in Gibraltar. Are schedule had us taking off 24 hours after the previous landing. It didn't take long to get out of synch with the real world. I recall the unreality of a post-flight nosh - bacon and eggs - followed by a sortie downtown at about 10. We got to bed around teatime and up at O'dark hundred for the next brief and launch.

No way we could have gone to sleep post-flight and again later in the day pre-flight.

Oh dear someone else sent home......................

Senior Navy officer fighting piracy sent home after extra-marital affair with female sailor | Mail Online

diligaf? :E

At least she's female, and not a Stoker in a little black number I suppose.

Got to be expected when you put women on ships!! :ok:

Very true, women, being an alternative to normal sex on a Grey Funnel boat makes it inevitable that the Navy chaps will want to experiment :ok:

HVAL

Lets have a look at public/foreign opinion shall we

British pilots sent home from Libya mission in disgrace - Yahoo! News

or a quick snapshot of the arab reaction as below - mmmmm read by 444 and commented on by, er, none.

British pilots sent home in disgrace


Actually me old, its kind of difficult to find any outrage whatsoever. Nice of you to take time out to speak on behalf of the world, but it seems, the world really isn't that interested.

[sanctimonious]

When I were a lad at Sleaford Tech we were taught that commissioned officers didn't get pi$$ed in public; it wasn't good for the troops.:sad:

[/sanctimonious]

I find that with northerners, can't understand a word.

I take it then, when british industry leaders travel abroad, they don't partake, don't stay in plush hotels and when they get a day off, stay in said hotel.....

FFS:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

oh here comes the enemy, a conference table!

Quote:

---

Actually me old, its kind of difficult to find any outrage whatsoever. Nice of you to take time out to speak on behalf of the world, but it seems, the world really isn't that interested.

---

Well that’s alright then. After all, as commissioned officers it’s not how you act, it’s what people find out about how you’ve acted.

I see from the Storygraph that an Army officer, clothing stained, was accompanied from a nightclub in the early hours by a number of policemen. The club may lose its licence because of rowdy behaviour by the guests.

So there we are, hat trick.

I would rather be on a Sqn serving with these two chaps than with some of the whiter than white, holier than thou, politically correct, sniffling, back stabbing, gutless, hypocritical, arm chair morons that have posted some quite incredible posts here.:mad:

They got drunk! So what, it’s hardly the end of the world or a crime against humanity. They should have been able to play their Joker, got a slapped wrist and allowed to continue with their job. And I don’t care if they were two Flt Lts, or the Boss and his 2ic.

They probably had a reason for doing what they did and it is probably a reason that 99.9 percent of the population could never understand or experience. And of all people, we, who have served in dodgy situations, should cut them some slack. The rest of you will never understand.

It’s because of the ability of the internet, fast communication to the ordinary public and the callous reporting by certain newspapers, alongside a weak, politically correct and gutless leadership that has led to a complete over reaction to this incident. It will be the downfall of us all.:ugh::ugh:

It already is I'm afraid. :(

OK, so it our turn again. Sorry can't help, a retired senior officer being chucked out of a taverna on a small Greek island is hardly going to make headline news.

SRENNAPS very well said sir :ok:

Exascot, you been a nawty buoy then?

Old habits never change. However when you have got the island policeman dancing at a beach BBQ in full uniform firing his revolver into the air in time with the music I doubt I am going to be arrested :cool:

Must go and get another Raki :)

Obviously some don't realise you have to counter the media story, not the actual events. Once it's published, it becomes fact in the minds of the great unwashed, and that is what the MoD are trying to react to. It's also amusing/sad that the dipsomaniacs here are convinced these two have done no wrong other being "one of the lads" and having a great night out.

Historically, it is unlikely that the structure and fabric of HM Forces have ever faced a greater threat from major cuts in personnel and equipment. The very same government that sings HM Forces' praises in public on one hand, is on the other hand conducting a ruthless campaign by stealth and deception to emasculate and remove funding from the UK's military capability. With that background, does it take a genius to figure out what the impact of a story such as this has? Not everyone in the MoD wants, or even needs, the "truth" to come out, they are quite happy with the Press implication that some over-paid, elitist, bad-boys with an inflated sense of entitlement are running amok with millions of pounds worth of taxpayer funded equipment.

You can be confident that dark blue and green will be taking preventative measures to keep the pressure on light blue with this story, and why wouldn't they? This was never about "bottle to throttle" or the social conduct of known stable extroverts, it was a shining example of how the Press and Government are waiting like hungry dogs to use any and all negative publicity to make their case for why the military can't be trusted, so why not cut some more money from them? Now those revered and respected social organs such as the Sun and Daily Mail have smelled blood in the water, you should pity the next poor sap who gets the MoD into the news for "conduct unbecoming".

Actually this 'greater threat' is really no more than all the other cuts in the past. Really it is just one great continium and the Torys are doing what they have done historically. Both partys cut and Torys, IMHO, cut deeper.