Fort, I agree with most of what you say, but got to challenge the bit about weak leadership. It may or may not have been the right decision to make the theatre dry (after an MPA tour I see both sides), but I am surprised you think doing something just so you can tell the SoS you have done something is strong leadership? I hope and assume that the officer responsible made the decision because he/she? felt it was the right thing to do as a commander, not because they just wanted to be seen to do something. A lot of the **** most of us have to deal with is surely the consequences of people doing things to be seen to be doing things?

Because of the knee jerk reaction to make the JOA dry, thus punishing hundreds of innocent parties?

Apologies for being late on parade...just back from the sunshine.

Re the thread...I know nowt about it (no longer partake news comics) but if a couple of aircrew types were following play hard work hard rules, tick VG, now trousers down and take it like a man.

Now for a spot of thread drift...

Getting old is a pretty miserable experience, but I confess the pill is sweetened by winding up the today's youth...which ain't hard.

Well this old fool was smart enough to get selected as RAF aircrew and enjoy himself drinking and shagging round the world for ten years (unfortunately, thanks to the Mayfair Bar, at least on one occasion both in public at the same time)

Smart enough to get the job done whilst doing it and get promoted six times.

Smart enough to know that he had had the best of it (evidently!) and to pull the handle early.

And smart enough to know that british military are the best in world (and give the tax payer incredible value for money) precisely because of the ethos and traditions founded over hundreds of years and many wars. Which is exactly why the earlier comment about the Battle of Britain is spot on.

I think it is a point worth making that the good reputation of the British armed forces, including the RAF was formed during all the wars we fought and won whilst drinking heavily at every chance we got, not during the recent dry wars.
If anything, the dry Iraq and Afghan wars have tarnished the image of our forces, since we have demonstrably not won.

We are the armed forces.

We are not here to set an example to the public.

We are here to kill and threaten to kill people as required by polititians

Pandering to public opinion is a slippery road, we should just focus on our job.
We will get all the respect we need from winning, not trying to win in a certain PC way.

Leadership - of a sort!
 

"As for the subsequent order sending the JOA dry, I don't see that as weak leadership." No, it is hasty badly thought-through leadership. In what way are the troops in Cyprus going to be motivated to go the "Extra Mile" by having the sins of people 1000 miles away visited on their recreational drinking?

Yes - and beating the wife, especially before she had the vote, was good for morale as well? Hurrah for the good old days!

:rolleyes:

Cleared to Roll: I'm afraid weak leadership is not a new phenomenon; the knee-jerk reflex has always been around. I recall Stn Cdr Gutersloh (& this was not his fault) in '89 having to go around the Unit & surrounding countryside one Saturday evening, terminating Xmas social functions due to the crash of a USAF A-10 on an apartment block in the Clutch, with regrettable loss of life.

This Biblical over-reaction was due to a directive from the Foreign Office, generated by their equivalent of the Orderly Corporal, in response to an out-of-hours request from his opposite number at the German FO. Herr Flick sent out a demand to all NATO forces Germany that a period of sombre reflection be observed by same. Quentin Fawcett-Home at HM FO leapt upon this with zeal & gusto, certain that this would propel him to become HM Ambassador to Washington DC before you could say "where's my Pimms?", and instigated this Draconian reaction. The other Nato (G) forces, when confronted with the same request, quietly ignored this tosh. It was interesting to note that the Bars/Clubs/Whorehouses of Germany continued to party as normal. 'Twas ever thus.................

HB

I have seldom been more in agreement with a post on Prune :D

Mr C the attitude you endorse is exactly why today's military is what is today and IMHO you Sir are an arse :=

Beating the wife????? What are you on about? That wasn't acceptable in those days either and by the way, it is not a thing of the past. It still happens now (a lot) so you can't use that as an example. Didn't women have the vote then as well?
I know what he is trying to say and so does everyone else, don't twist his words. Of course booze and flying does not mix, but he is right in parts, the armed forces should not be PC like the NHS.

Hinecap

Just because some things were bad in the old days does not mean everything was.

For example, in the old days nobody would have considered for a moment the truly excerable disloyalty and cowardice displayed by some on here who slag off brothers in arms on a public forum from behind the shield of annonymity, but time change, eh Hinecap.
Previously you would have been horswhipped and never allowed in an Officers mess again.

I miss the old days.....sigh......

In the good old days he and his like would never have made it into the mess in the first place, sycophantic yes men are part of the new breed that are slowly but surely wrecking the military and all it once stood for :(

I think it is a point worth making that the good reputation of the British armed forces, including the RAF was formed during all the wars we fought and won whilst drinking heavily at every chance we got, not during the recent dry wars.
If anything, the dry Iraq and Afghan wars have tarnished the image of our forces, since we have demonstrably not won.


Congratulations. Quite the silliest piece of reasoning on this whole thread. And that's saying something.

hanoi

No, because whilst it does not prove that drinking is good for reputation, it does prove that it does not destroy a reputation.

Incidentally, in response to your earlier comment about "moral bancrupty", whilst I dearly love your part of the world, at least in the west nobody has ever tried to sell me their 10yr old daughter for sex.

As an aside, and so she STFU, I see that police in Vietname have been banned from answering non-work related telephone calls or drinking alcohol..

So clearly it is not just the west that has an alcohol problem.

whilst I dearly love your part of the world

And we dearly love you, which is why we...

tried to sell me their 10yr old daughter for sex.

erm.....ok?

I see that police in Vietname

You were trying to spell 'Viet Nam'? Oooops!

So clearly it is not just the west that has an alcohol problem

Remarkably astute of you. But I fail to see how this stunning observation impacts upon the subject under discussion. Perhaps you could drag me up to your level of enlightenment?

Whether people on this forum like it or not, the Forces are expected to set high standards of behaviour. Inter alia, our troops are under the media - and social media - spotlight 24/7. And dose being PC mean that our persoNnel strive hard not to be racist, sexist, homophobic etc? Does it also mean that the 'leadership' should not discourage inappropriate behaviour at work - including alcohol excesses?

I agree with Chinecap - the good ol' day should be left where they belong. Oh, and Tourist, I think that success in Afghanistan being linked to alcohol consumption is a non sequiteur ie it doesn't follow.

The RAF has changed immeasurably in my 25 years service and having done several tours in the Balkans (2), Middle East (2) and the 'Stan (2) I also support the no alcohol ban (and enforced in the early days of Kosovo when several aircrew became v ill on the local brew (and against FP advice)

Are you losers still discussing this?

Oh sorry I forgot, this is the pprune ex military forum where you all discuss how wonderful things were when you were in and how naughty everybody is today compared to what you were like.


http://www.madamandeve.co.za/vd/high-ground.jpg


Can I lend any body a quarter?


http://www.thejokester.net/Cartoons/...20Life_gif.jpg

Fraud. You seem to be only 'Mildly Annoyed' not 'Really Annoyed'.

I demand my money back.