iRaven:

If such a bird has been built and used (at night, like the old sea shadow on the west coast) then Sikorsky (rr Boeing, or MD) has been running a multi-million dollar "black" program for quite a few years, and little to nothing will be said about it.

Such changes as he imagines above (to include the ducting of exhaust as done for Comanche) present non-trivial CG and other structural challenges.

No further comments, as I have an idea that Tourist is on to something.

:}

@851: not sure why he suggests 5 blades, and I note that the TRGB on a hawk (S-70 series) is on the right side, and canted about 20 degrees. That pic has it on the left, and not canted at all. With 5 blades on the main rotor hub, my brain tells me one has to retune, for vibrations, the whole bloody design ... the entire cabin has to be retuned. (Achievable, no doubt, but at non trivial cost). Why not stay with 4 main rotor blades even if they chose to go with five on the tail for whatever reason?

That sketch doesn't quite do it for me.

Oh, and by the way, don't US helicopters rotate their blades counterclockwise? :confused: The drawing shows a clockwise rotor blade direction.

Not seeing that one as the answer.

Images of what was behind the screen erected in the compound.

http://i.imgur.com/DYBhQ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rXvqM.jpg

TJ

The guy on the right looks like a red head. Almost looks like he's dressed in Brit Army kit ...

That is big. To me it appears far larger than anything that could be developed on a 60.

Stealth CH53?!

I couldn't notice that the BBC news site briefly touced on this beast but now all references have been removed. I'm off to get my foil hat on!

Who ever placed the dem charges on what may well turn out to be some new supa duper secret squirrel bit of kit will have some explaining to do having left such a large bit intact for the locals to drool over....

When we had to destroy something in situ with a bit of bang we always used to try and 'convert it to very little bits' and place said little bits all over the landscape, preferably in different continents :E

Oh I don't know; they managed to totally vaporise engines, exhausts, blade spars etc etc. Things that normally survive the worst of fires. :confused:

I think the guys tasked with destroying it had more pressing things to deal with than perfectly obliterating it, under fire, in a Pakistan city, at night, with the world's most wanted man (dead or alive) in their custody. I doubt one jot that failing to destroy the tail of a helicopter, no matter how superdupersecret, was on anyone's mind as they exfilled.

As for the guy on the right, yeah it does look like BritMil uniform - from about 5 decades ago!

As for size of the components, I'd imagine that smaller TRBs would require a faster and possibly therefore larger TGB. Maybe that accounts for it's size, I wouldn't say it would look too cumbersome on a 60, if anything it looks too small for a 53.

All personal conjecture, of course !

How do you figure they were under fire?

As I understand it, the "firefight" lasted a few minutes and the remainder of the brief time on the ground was spent collecting loot and bodies of varying sorts (possibly rendering first aid to the lady who was shot in the leg), and destroying helicopter then and getting loaded up and outta there.

An invigorating forty minutes of one's life, no doubt, but I do not see any reports of them being under fire near the end of the mission ... only early on in that brief fire fight.

The latest possible ID on the spooks Taxi

http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/mh-x3.jpg

Looks like a moded S70 Spirit
Looks about right but who knows

Kev S

Remember this thing......

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z96/redlum5x5/ts.jpg

Sikorsky S-75........ 76 dynamics, proof of concept all-composite helicopter.

Add in a bit of R&D, a-la Bird of Prey, LM X-55 etc.

There is no reason to believe that Uncle Sam has not developed a low-observable carbon composite fuse using existing dynamics.

Have a look at the other thread in Rotorheads, the head is clearly Black/Sea/Naughtyhawk .......

Throw in a bit of Comanche.....

At least when the customers start complaining about the "black helicopters" we know they are lying..... its clear they are a silver-grey:E

Always a sapper

"Who ever placed the dem charges on what may well turn out to be some new supa duper secret squirrel bit of kit will have some explaining to do having left such a large bit intact for the locals to drool over....

When we had to destroy something in situ with a bit of bang we always used to try and 'convert it to very little bits' and place said little bits all over the landscape, preferably in different continents :E"


All well and good but a couple of factors.

1. It was a kill raid, not a destroy raid so the likelihood of them
having a huge amount of explosive charges to 'convert it to very
little bits' would not be high.
They probably had some breaching and framed charges for walls, widows et al but breaching a wall / window doesn't take a huge amount of explosive.

2. Chopper, confined space, own people around, the consequences
of shrapnel hitting own people and machines would be high.

3. If left to go off after they leave, what if they don't go off ? Then what ?
Can't go back.

I agree with unchecked. "I doubt one jot that failing to destroy the tail of a helicopter, no matter how superdupersecret, was on anyone's mind as they exfilled."

Machines are expendable, people are not.

Lonewolf

Granted, but even if you remove 'under fire' from my post, there's still a lot left there for the boys to be thinking about. In the dark and in a major residential area is going to make it hard enough. Paveway or JDAM has been the tool of choice for downbird denial in Afg in the past as I understand it, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't an option on Sunday night.

I think the guys on the ground most probably did the best they could with the tools they had available and within the constraints placed upon them.

I do hope the US DoD reveal all soon though!

Looks like a fairly straight forward(ish) scenario to me.

Helicopters (whatever the variant) fly into compound. One of them flares hard (like a UH60 is prone to do) and has a tail strike on the compound wall.

Tail structure structure falls one way (as in the picture), main wreckage falls other side of wall.

Remaining troops/survivors are now inside the compound. All hell breaks loose,
dems (white phos or similar) thrown into main wreckage.

All remaining troops onto cabs inside the compound(s). Therefore no time to scale the walls or go around and destroy tail boom.

Everyone gets the hell out of dodge.


As to what the cabs were?? Who knows??!!

All of course IMHO.

Seems very reasonable.

SORTED!
 

http://tst.greyfalcon.us/pictures2/81.jpg

*Artists impression.

More photos
 

That fist pic of the tail rotor is very clear & looks like nothing I have seen before, obviously not an exhaustive list.

Question 1.

Reports indicate that about 25 SEALS were ferried in 2 choppers. Assuming they were flying in from JBAD they probably were carrying a full fuel load. Would it be possible for 2 UH - 60's to carry 25 SEAL's and assume to carry back Dead/Alive Enemy combatants of value?

Question 2.

After one Chopper was downed would it be possible for one chopper to ferry back 25 SEALS, one long dead man, and about 200 pounds worth of computers and hard drives and stuff.

To an earlier reference of a red haired Brit soldier. Well the red hair is from a product called Henna something men in that area typically use to dye their hair and is very common there (still have not figured out why they like the flaming orange color) and the uniform, is attributed to what many free lance security guards and or local cops wear which is a remnant of the culture of the British Raj. (beleive it or not .303 Lee Enfields are also still in use there).