Alex you are right about BA getting its sums wrong, I was the POC in MOD for the initial Tristar operations and worked closely with BA on crewing, catering etc when we were hiring BA crews. Interestingly the BA Tristar 500s had been upgraded by Lockheed with active flying controls and other mods as they would not achieve the stated payload/range which was based on the London Vancouver sector. They were therefore probably the longest range Tristars ever built and we put them into use on sectors such as BZZ-Nairobi and BZZ-Calgary as well as the ASI and then FI run where they were capable of moving 300 pax. The savings achieved were significant as we could replace 2 VC10s operating over 2 days with a single Tristar taking one day moving more pax. As a result I started the campaign to retain at least one unmodified Tristar for pax as a cost savings measure which was ultimately successful. I believe that BA also rued the decision to get rid of these aircraft as within a few months of selling them to the RAF they were chartering less capable Air Lanka Tristars to operate some of their South American routes.

And then when they wheeled out those incy whincy little freight containers someone thought up that could fit through a PAX door I burst out laughing, it was as if someone had taken a normal freight container then carved it into 4, looked mighty impressive but could hold the square root of squat.

of course, but we're operating to a 98% despatch reliablity with aircraft running an average utilisation of 16 hours per day (includes all maintenance down time). That's pretty typical for most commercial airlines. (And no, not new aircraft. We're talking about aircraft with 80,000+ hours and 25,000+ cycles)

411A,

Please explain how you will lift from Kabul in a Tristar with enough fuel to make the UK with any meaningful load whilst still operating to Perf A?

(been there, done it :ugh:)

Returning from Swindon this afternoon, it was nice to see a Tri* turning over Devizes @ 1535Z, and then heading north over Melksham towards Lyneham.

That Tri* sounds it was in one of Brize director's better patterns.
:E

Very simple, Sideshow Bob, it requires a tech stop for refueling.
Done all the time with all of the UN flights, ex-ROB.
It really is an easy exercise, perhaps the RAF...don't know how?:rolleyes:

NB. This really rather basic question leads me to believe that some folks...haven't a clue.
No surprise...:ugh:

Within a UK CAA CAP371 regulated crew duty day 411?

Yes, and easy if you use crew positioning.

But I'm sure 411 will give you the patronising, smart-a$$ answer. :hmm:

Black Sheep,

So how do you explain this comment. Sick of this crap being used to belittle the RAF AT system.

The sad thing is that the RAF TriStars have less than half the hours and cycles you quoted.

For all the waxing lyrical 411 comes out with, he seems to spend an awful lot of time on pprune.

Walter Mitty wind up merchant perchance? :rolleyes:

Yes, with a crew change at the refueling stop.
Augmented (preferred) or double crew sent to the Afghan end to cater for possible loading/cargo/fuel delays, which by the way, are the charter customer responsibilities.
Nevertheless, the RAF 'performance' is what it is, and if it was better, this thread would not likely be here.:rolleyes:

Which begs the question, why were they prematurely retired by the original operator and why were there so many stored out in the desert?

I'm not belittling the RAF AT operation - I was part of it myself once. I'm questioning the choice of equipment provided for the task. Sideshow Bob has hinted that the Tristar can't operate to maximum load out of Kabul which may be a clue as to why the Tristars were prematurely retired from civilian service.

411A

Please continue with your suggestions and comments-they bring a smile to my face and are a joy to us all.

Clearly, Blacksheep you have never operated a 'heavy' out Kabul in the warm months. You may want to dust off your ATPL Perf note and do the maths.

PS

216 Sqn up and running; business as usual.

When was the last time an RAF Tristar flew into Kabul anyway? Not being a pilot, I would have thought that the lower altitude at Kandahar would mean more of a performance margin allowing greater loads to be carried.

Blacksheep

you question the choice of equipment! you obviously have no clue how aircraft work
Runway length! Airfield elevation! Pressure altitude! OAT! obstacles! it affects every type of aircraft!

411A
Damn you must pay yr crews pennies the number of them you can commit to one schedule and still operate at a profit, slip crews double or augmented crews, gobsmacked you still only have 3 airplanes if yr ops are so good

Well that's not direct then is it and is something the RAF have been doing for a number of years. What do you think we do just stop off somewhere and park up for the night?

You seam to think we are a bunch of amateurs, try working to our rules and regulations with the restrictions placed on us from above and deliver the same result day in day out for 9 years you sanctimonious tw@t.

You're not paying attention, Sideshow Bob, the tech stop for refueling also has a crew change, and in addition, catering uplift for the passengers (you do feed 'em in the RAF yes?), because... it would be operated as an airline operation not some off the wall military ops without adequate forethought.
The military is very good at what they were designed for, fighting, however, it would appear that the transport of personel could be greatly enhanced by adopting proven commercial airline ops, and at an expected lower overall cost.
One wonders...is the MoD up to the task?

411a
 

How many crews per frame are you running?

Same question for the 216 guys