Plenty of RAF non-FJ and even non-aircrew (yes really!) made it to 3*/4* outside of the direct RAF Cmd Chain too

AMP is a rotary mate.....

Ultimately its a numbers game. A lot more FJ mates stay around for a full career (IMHO) as opposed to the ME guys who disappear into the airlines at 38.

C130jbloke

Your post and subsequent replies reminds me of this famous Monty Python sketch...

Eeerrr - OK.

My point is though the TOP job is always FJ. Why ? And why is the AMP ( ie the HR manager ) always a pilot too ? Are we saying all our Admin / Ops Sppt officers are not good enough ? I don't think so :=

Wasn't AM Bryant (a nav) AMP recently? It isn't always a pilot nor someone of a FJ background.

C130jbloke - One of your posts from 2007? As you appear to be an ex VC10 ALM in your last few years of service, what experience or relevant knowledge do you have, of the way the RAF selects its very senior officers ....? Just a query mate... don't flash!

NCAs are being given the option to remuster to SNCO ATCs. Manning is trawling now for them. You'll lose your SP(F), but get more cakes... and some radar rooms now have windows, so you'll not think you are an ABM, or whatever they are called this week.

Seemingly, NCA are familiar with communications procedure, console operation, airspace regulations, meteorology and the employment of wider airmanship skills. Ideal candidates to take over all of the TG9 slots from those who aspire to be controllers themselves... :ugh:

If I were a WSOp I wouldn't hold out too much hope for an ATC crossover - if ever there was a Branch ripe for civilianisation it is ATC. They are civvies in uniform already! In addition, why should the RAF get rid of highly capable TG9 & 12 operators just to retain a load of jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none 'giz-a-job' NCA?

Not true, the thought has crossed the mind of manning, and they are considering the possibility of it. Nothing is set in stone.

RAF ATC are not qualified in anything that the civilian agencies recognise, it would take around £20-£30 k to get the qualifications required to move into a civvy job doing the same thing.

The reason its being considered is because direct entrant ATC SNCO's do the same basic training as aircrew. It would effectively be the same as the NCA dude/dudette passing out of basic training and starting ATC training.

These people have a very specific set of skills. The myth that they can cross over to something like ATC with relative ease is just that, a myth. As an ABM I have been involved in the training of 2 X WSOp guys from the Nimrod fleet. Neither was successful.
They worked in a very specific way and it proved nigh on impossible for them to quickly adapt to a different way of doing things. It would be the same if you put an ABM in the back of a Nimrod; fish out of water (no pun intended).
Ex FJ AD backseaters, on the other hand, have had no problems at all. For them it is nothing more than an orientation course.
There is no shortage of applicants for every post in every Branch and, quite frankly, you stand a much higher chance of success with a newbie who comes without any baggage, or someone from the relevant Trade Group who has some understanding of the task.

This is not intended as an 'us and them' attack. Getting rid of the Maritime capability will prove, IMHO, to be a disaster. I hope every one of those affected gets looked after properly.

Ex FJ backseaters
 

Not strictly true; on the first "orientation" course there were 2 FJ backseaters and one herc nav, who had done time with the RN AEW Seakings. The "orientation" course turned into the full 28 week (or similar-it's been a long time) course. Two passed (just, with "political" pressure applied) the course, but were subsequently either withdrawn from post-grad training or "sidelined" because they were not cutting the mustard. The third was promoted just as we sere deciding how much flex we could give him in order to try to get him through.

Were they at fault, or your training?

Most AEOps seem fairly switched on. Are you saying none of them can hack it as Playstation Space Managers or whatever you term yourselves?

Justanopinion:

Fair point - you are correct and no flaming a pertinant question :ok:.

In the company ( airline ) I work for now its very much a case if you want to get to the top you need to have an overview of the whole set up. It's no good saying you are a pilot or accountant or whatever. It's based very much on leadership ( and getting the nod from the board ). Our last CEO had a background in the food industry but was deemed to have " the right stuff" for what the company needed at a time when it was in deep poo. When I quizzed one of the other directors as to what made this guy worthy of the job the reply was summarized into :

“See the big picture, make the big decisions and protect the bottom line “

And if fairness to him, we are now in better shape than when he arrived.

Between 05 - 07 I also studied for an MSc in Air Transport Management and I looked at the whole leadership thing for the RAF in pretty close detail. This led me to conclude that whilst I would never challenge the caliber of those at the top ( lets be honest - way better than me ) the fact that we limit selection from only a small cadre made me decide that maybe there was a better way of doing things - more people to choose from = better quality ?

As I submitted in a previous post, in the US, SecDef Robert Gates was fed up with the F-22 obsessed leadership in the USAF whilst they were bogged down in AFG / Iraq. That's why he chose to put a shot across some bows and put a truckie in the top job. A different type of Air Force leader - Los Angeles Times

In the Hadden - Cave report, AM Pledger did not come out of it particularly well either. By his own admission, he was not up to the job ( The Nimrod Review - ch 13 para 96 + 102) so it begs the question as to why put a pilot into the top job in the eng and logs world ? I would submit that the HC report backs up my arguement.

My point is that I do not believe for one moment that the RAF has it right with selection from it’s own “fighter mafia” jet jock for the top job - or possibly for that role, of an aircrew mate full stop. I don’t see anywhere in the CAS / AMP job descriptions that you need to have been above average on your F5000, like it does not say you need to be good at shooting for the CGS role on the Army.

Bit of thread creep, but like you said, who am I - as I am looking in.

Food for thought perhaps ?

C130jbloke

Thanks for the detailed reply - i absolutely get that in the civilian world, you don't have to be a pilot to be the head of an airline.

I just know that in the Royal Air Force's various branches, promotion wise, it's easier to be a big fish in a small pond than the other way round.

Willie Walsh, CEO of British Airways, started life as a pilot with Aer Lingus.

Jim French, CEO of Flybe, started off in British Caledonian (although I believe he held a variety of posts from baggage handler upwards!).

Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, CEO of Air France and Air France KLM, was a fighter a pilot and then commercial pilot.

Sorry mate, but there are examples of CEOs that have come from the operations side of the Airline Business that are doing pretty well!

I don't know what the future holds for WSO/WSOPs, however if I was one in Moray, I'd either start studying for a useful qualification and professional membership to help me make the move to Civvy st, or volunteer to learn a useful language (i.e Pashtun, Farsi, Arabic). I assume we are still short of linguists. If the RAF don't keep you the SIS, Security Service, GCHQ, HMGCC will give you a job.

I assume the Army will takeover Kinloss and all the other soon to be vacated RAF bases (Lossie/Halton/Cottesmore/Scampton/Boscombe) which should help the local area housing market. If you want a guranteed posting for your career, I think the only safe bet is Air Cmd.

Halton? Where did that one come from, likewise Boscombe is leased to QinetiQ as their sole airfield and hardly likely to be an a Army shopping list. There is though much talk in whats left of BAOR regarding moving into Kinloss.

The B word :

You are correct, but I never said pilots could not do it - by their nature they are extremely analytical so why not. My point was that for the top job(s), you can come from any discipline as long as you have the skills to manage the big picture and not because of historical precedent.

I agree with your example(s), though in the case of Walsh BA took him on because of the job he did with Aer Lingus - ie saving the company by a reorganization of the loss making segments of the company.


Sadly none of this helps the guys up at ISK :(

Army move to Kinloss
 

That would be interesting as the last time I looked they had demolished quite a few of the quarters there. Lots of green lawns, so all of a sudden the simple expedient of taking over an RAF station involves capital outlay as they have to build enough houses for the troops. Mind you they are building locally so maybe we will go back to the old days of hirings.

Maybe try getting your CV out to these guys :rolleyes:


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