WSOp's/WSO's at Kinloss, what does the future hold?
 

After all the pain of the MRA4 being cancelled and uncertainty over our futures, it now seems we (WSOp's/WSO's) are being told that our job is now also at risk as there aren't enough jobs to use us up. To say this is a major kick in the B****** is an understatement. How can the Royal Air Force treat it's employees with such contempt after all the years service given and loyalty shown through thick and thin. On a count on the manning website there were 181 posts filled at Kinloss in the WSOp cadre. (sorry no count for WSO's)
Right now I don't know whether to apply for posts elsewhere in the Air Force, go for a commission or start to look outside. (I have done 2 out of the 3) All we need is some form of timescales from manning so our families can at least make plans which is the least we deserve. I know a lot of people on here have never been up to RAF Kinloss or fully understand the specialisations we had employed onboard the Nimrod but suffice to say most people expected to spend their entire careers on Nimrod at Kinloss and a lot have the best part of 20yrs or more on type.
Now you can say that we are in the military and should expect to move every 3 years so dry our eyes. This just is not the case with Nimrod at Kinloss. You were pretty much set for a full career up here if you chose that route and most people settled and have kids born and raised in the North so it’s not just a case of move and get on with it. Who is going to buy your house? What will your wife do with her career? What about the kids settled at school? Our mind set was never to move every 3 years so that’s where we differ up here.
Whilst many of the old sweats are quite happy with redundancy as they will go to immediate pension with gratuity and redundancy payment,(also not much left on their mortgages) a lot of the young guys are still in their early careers but nearing the 12 year point only to be told that that may be it. Who would have thought that after a ¼ million pounds training program each that they could just say tough luck for being at Kinloss when it all went wrong,. It’s a sad day when highly trained individuals within the RAF will face compulsory redundancy. And to rub salt into the wound, redundancy payments have changed at the crucial time.
I just hope manning get their act together and give us a timescale very soon as I fear moral which is already low will become unbearable. It has gotten to the point where people have a sniff of a possible post elsewhere and it’s all hush hush survival of the fittest. Is this really the way we are?
Me...I want to stay in the service.

Your skill set will be very valuable in the Reaper (and future RPAS) community. The smart guys should be heading that way fast.

Arn't those slots being taken by rotary loadies?

SNAFU.

They did this with the Sim Techs about 15 years ago. Got rid of the job and chopped the lot, root and branch, even those that were newly trained productive radar techs on the E3 which was working up at the time.

WSO/WSOp choices are:

E-3D SENTRY
MQ-9 REAPER
SENTINEL R1
RIVET JOINT
SHADOW R1
CHINOOK HC2/2A
PUMA HC1
MERLIN HC3
SEA KING HAR3/3A
TORNADO GR4
C-17A GLOBEMASTER
HERCULES C4/C5 (J Model)

55(R) Sqn, 207(R) Sqn and 60(R) Sqn will probably wind back a bit but start to see movement of some of the "golden oldies" soon depending on what happens to MFTS - some vacancies might be possible?

I've left out TRISTAR, HERCULES C1/C3 and VC10 as they go out of service in the next 3-4 years or so.

I really can't imagine it is "game over" if you're willing to move and willing to wait for OCUs. You may have to cross-over specialisations, but hey, there are plenty that have done this before. Also, what about pilot crossovers for the under 30s?

So of the 180odd without portfolio at present, maybe 50% will want to take redundancy payment and an IP/EDP - that leaves about 90. I know that there are about 35 WSO/WSOp places coming up in the next 18 months on at least 2 of the above platforms for quality individuals; so if your F5200s are a good read then shouldn't have any issues.

Keep the faith brother, I am sure that some brighter news will come soon. :ok:

LJ

PS. If you think you have it tough then at least you're not a Harrier pilot. There's just Typhoon and GR4 to choose from and I understand that OCUs are "chocker" at present (especially with the small draw down of GR4). I heard rumours that they might offer some back-seats to the younger Harrier-jocks in GR4 until OCUs and F-35C come around! (I say again, just a rumour!). Also, all that single-engine viffy-viffy nozzley-nozzley stuff doesn't cut it with the Airlines any more - they'll need to get some proper ME time to be competitive for the long-haul jobs (ie. the well paid ones) as they will probably only have a frozen ATPL(A). :eek:

All I will say Number Cruncher, is welcome to the real world. It isn't cosy or nice. If you get a compulsary, at least you will have time to sort out your affairs. I spent 3 months of this year worrying if I was going to get the chop from my present job (I'm ex RAF with 25 years), and if I had, I would get 1 month notice (pay, with no additional redundancy payments). I wish you well in whatever happens, but expect little sympathy, as this happens in the outside to many people. Remember, to the RAF, you are a service number and it doesn't really care what you do or fare when you hand in your ID card.:uhoh:

Cruncher... Whilst I do have empathy for you and all those at Kinloss. It is a horrendous situation for anyone to be in. I feel your point about wives careers and kids invalid. There is nothing different in your "contract" that says you're entitled to stability. You would by others, until now, have been considered very lucky. My wife would love to continue the career she spent 6 years training for (longer than a FJ mate) unfortunatly it takes longer to progress to the next stage than three years. (she also hasn't found a job in the last 18months).

Once again I feel for you guys and girls. However, there are a lot of others who have moved every 2-3 years for the last 12+ years who may well find themselves in a similar situation. The point has already been made about the bum to seat ratio in the FJ world (we've lost around 35% of our FJ fleet with the reduction in GR slots.)

I hope it all works out for you.:ok:

What does a WSOP do..? What does a WSO do?

Thing about Kinloss compared with the English Air Force is its very remoteness and, as NC says, many have houses there as it was practically a given that their career would be settled in the north of Scotland.

For an Englishman made redundant up there it is akin to being made redundant overseas without a posting home first. I am sure that has happened but it doesn't make it any better.

Number-cruncher ....... One of your posts from 2008? Change of heart?

@ Justanopinion

I think they call this a 'Dohhhhhhhhh!' moment.

@vecvec

Same as RN lookers ....... only better and with more style!;)

Well done Justanopinion for finding that little gem. :hmm:

I think our thread initiator would do best to wind his neck in and stag on like the rest of us have had to do over the years wherever that may have been.

As PN said above, there are no guarantees in any service career, no wife job chits, no school education chits, no own home chits...and as I said before, if you don't like then leave.

Harsh - maybe. Reality - yes.

I suggest that the original poster drops his victim act very quickly.

G:ok:

In 5 yrs time I'll be happy to have a job. 'Nuff said.

Sorry to read that chap but please be reassured ...

... it's a lot worse for the vast majority of civvies, most of whom do not have anywhere near the levels of support, redundancy terms or financial safety blanket that you do.

Welcome to civvy street :{

CS
wot's having to sell up and move at less than a desirable rate because the other half's employers need her to move to a different office. Sometimes life isn't fair but you just have to get on with it :*

Things are way worse on the outside, so best dry your eyes princess :ok:

As for the whinge about the other WSOp having the nice houses - well you should have got in earlier. When you sign on the line, there is no promise of an entire career at one location - I am sure there was much nail biting when St Mawgan went too.

Hope for you then C130j bloke that they dont bring in seniority and that all the guys coming down from Kinloss that have more seniority than you will take your slot regardless of being qualified to do so or not.What would your feelings be to that? Stranger things have happened these last few weeks. I dont know where your seniority lies but if its a fair way down the pecking order you may have to worry.

What Fergineer has said has hit the nail on the head. This isn't a "Kinloss Problem" - this is a problem that all WSOps wiil have to confront over the next few years, particularly the EW/Aco specialities. I am not saying that a RW crewman will lose his job in favour of a bloke from Kinloss (although if you have a poor F5200 it could be a possibility), but just because you have a comfortable job on E3 or Reaper, for example, does not make you immune from the axe. As for all the blah about wife/kids/job/mortgage/cat stability, get real - you can, and should reasonably expect, to be moved whenever they like if you want a full Service career. It's only the efforts of the Manning Desk that have allowed most people the stability that many aspire to.

The way I see it;

1) On a 12 year engagement and done 8 years or more - Worry!
2) Over 51 years old - Worry!
3) Average Joe - Worry!
4) Everyone else - Worry!

As has been stated this will impact on ALL NCA trades. The bottom line is we are a mere commodity that can be traded and if you don't cut the mustard they will look at binning you!

It really is time to build a solid case for your defence wherever you are - no one is indispensable. Its not pleasant, but it is the harsh reality of the modern Armed Forces.

Justanopinion
:ok:
Well done for researching my previous post but that was for purely personal reasons and sorted itself out in the end which I was pleased about.


GiJoe

Victim Act dropped!!!!!

I don't feel a victim here because I am man enough and confident enough that I will sort myself out whatever the outcome. It's survival now. That original post I can assure you is the general feeling of the lads and lasses up here at the moment.

LJ

As for the list of various platforms which I was already aware we can be employed on, we are being told that OCU's are already backed up for the next 12 - 18 months and any spare slots were used up by the early exit of MR2 and thus more bods from up here heading south.


I expected the dry your eyes, welcome to the real world etc etc. I am in the real world and have worked in civvie street for a number of years before service so I do know what it's like out there as does mrs nc.
The point is a lot of the guys ARE willing to move but the word on the street is there is nowhere to move to due to OCU backlogs etc on other a/c types.

How many WSOps fly in a Nimrod on a normal sortie...?

What about the guys who have got their own houses? they are potentially in a far worse situation, they now own houses that are probably worth much less than they paid for them with little prospect of being able to sell or rent them out! they could be forced to sell for a much reduced price or forced to leave their families behind whilst they "possibly" get a new job down south somewhere.
Being young and not on the housing market could be the best pot to be in at Kinloss right now, so in a nut shell stop feeling sorry for yourself and start plotting your escape if there are any!

6-8 WSOps used to fly on the Nimrod, less the Engineer, and dependant on crew composition.

Anyway, this thread is alarming and depressing. I get the impression that people on here are doing a little too much scaremongering.

Does anyone actually know about forced redundancies yet? Does anyone know about voluntary redundancies yet?

If they do can we please have some pukka information then?

Otherwise any young WSOs/WSOps reading this should remember that it's just a rumour forum.

There may well be unpopular moves ahead for some and those at the end or start of their contracts may feel they need to worry - but that is mere speculation and by saying that I may be just as bad as the doom and gloom merchants here.

Whilst not wanting to stick my head in the sand and thinking it won't happen to me, these changes may take years to implement - I would very much doubt that people are going to queuing at the job centre next week.

As for feathering your nest and making yourself look more important than you really are - I think that's a load of old tosh for most cases. Many WSOps, particularly Sgts, don't have that luxury available and will have to just wait and see what happens, and of course, when.

Do we actually know when these decisions are going to happen? PR 11 perhaps? Which is Spring 2011 I believe, although please feel free to correct me.

We could look at the last 'big chop' of people and make assumptions from that if that would give some people a bit of hope. Now, I don't know exact numbers and this is a small bit of knowledge that I have, but some AEOps did take voluntary redundancy after Options for Change - does anyone know of forced redundancies? An honest question.

Would it be too much to ask people to employ their common sense in looking at this realistically, not just make wild predictions that we are all in dire trouble? If people are in the know, AND they can let us know, then please fire away.

Rant off. Out.

I don't think it's scaremongering to suggest that their isn't enough jobs available to go around for many in the NCA cadre, the RAF is getting cut by 5000 so exactly where are the Kinloss NCA all going to go? yes a few to UAV's yes a few to SH although there is already a big line to join and a rather inadequate training system to cope with it! perhaps a few to fixed wing LM and some to SAR, what of the numerous rest? common sense if unpalatable suggests that they are at risk of losing their jobs.

Petasus, a nice upbeat post, however it misses the point that redundancies or not there will be precious few jobs for anyone at ISK in the short term and, if rumour is to be believed, ISL in the not too distant future either.

This means that almost everyone will be uprooted.

Those with houses will, as previously pointed out, have a choice of leaving family behind while they are posted or they seek jobs elsewhere or leaving their house empty and moving into a quarter supposing they are still employed by Betty.

Even those in quarters may also have to leave family behind while the personnel shuffle goes on. For those posted to other roles the usual advice is not to move your family until you pass the course.

It's going to be a tough time for all, not just the AEOp's. The whole airforce is going to suffer. There's over 2000 at Kinloss, less than 200 are WSOp's of one badge or another.
If you aren't on a pensionable engagement and your SJAR isn't particularly spectacular, worry.
If you are on the new pension scheme and your SJAR isn't particularly spectacular, worry.
If you are a young fit WSOp of any brevet, volunteer for rotary as soon as there are spaces on the courses.
The only known fact is that no one knows how many of which trades are going yet, but bet your bottom dollar as soon as they do we will be subjected to a reverse promotion board.

Sideshow Bob.

According to Kinloss OC, there is around 1300 people at Kinloss....

And we're led to believe there is an 18 month waiting list on all Rotary WSOp training due to a bottleneck at Shawbury... You SURE there is spaces? Because there doesn't appear to be any being offered!

Like I said get your word in, no one is going to do it for you, It's every man for himself at the moment. It's about the only job where there's going to be expansion.

There was 2000 when I left, but then again the whole Sqn went with me so 1300 about right.

Wow, this makes for heavy reading; I am due to start at Halton in two weeks, probably picked the worst time in years to join. One supposes that really shining at NCAITC and 55 Sqn will increase my chances of there being a spot available... That said in the present climate I suppose nothing is certain.

Squeeky bum time as they say....
Matt

Matt, that is one of the quirks of the reduction in personnel. New blood is still needed at the bottom to keep feeding the system.

While many already in could be retrained to new roles everyone gets older year by year and they can't have big gaps occuring through a complete recruitment freeze.

Looks like NCA will cease to exist in 10 years time anyway....

Depressing, but there is little need for specialist aircrew now, except maybe pilots...

No NCA, who will man the C17, A400M, Chinook, Merlin, Puma, A330MRTT (KC-30 or whatever name it has this week) E-3D, Rivet Joint (Maybe Preditor Maybe some other UAV's) ect then, do you know something we don't.

Mate, this isn't the end of the AEOp just a re-adjustment of manning, something us Air Eng's have had to live with for the last decade.

Pontius, a valid point but not one that I've missed. Given the option of an uproot (to be expected in military circles, no matter what the job) or out of work, I would think that most would take the move.

Without trying to contradict myself, I would think that if ISK does, sadly, close then people will have to move, (numbers noted sideshow) that's a fact. What isn't a fact is the redundancy issues. Yet. Alot of people seem to be telling us to worry without proper fact.

On another thread a little more perspective is employed and the opinions seem to be that if the worst does come to the worst, it won't be a sudden issue. Who at the moment knows whether AFPS 05 people will be better off or not? Nobody I would wager, or rather nobody who is going to post on here.

Do we realistically think that 5000 poeple will just receive a brown envelope? I don't. There are mechanisms to achieve the numbers and not just widescale instant redundancy. I think Sideshow could give us an idea of what he and his mates have done to survive a similiar stupid decision - not all Air Engs are on the outside now. Having said that I can see what the problems are with people and jobs available.

I do feel for those at Kinloss, the not knowing about your job, career and home must be awful. But having to move out of necessity is just tough frankly, I wouldn't want to leave my family at a trying time but I've done it before and I'd do it again. Part of service life I'm afraid, well, that's how I see it anyway.

On a positive note, many of the reduction was not expected to be too hard to achieve. Also the reductions this time are about half the reductions in percentage terms as in the early 90s with the peace dividend.

About 2500 natural wastage and 2500 brown envelopes is what I am hearing.

Whilst I have some sympathy those who were not astute enough to see that the game of musical chairs was going to come to a grinding halt with this SDSR package may well live to regret that lack of fore sightedness.

Without a bum on the seat of a working platform quite a few folk are going to be out of work in the coming months.

The folk on '05 pension is an interesting one because it is/was designed to retain personnel until their 55th birthday and has been very effective at doing so. This of course means that if you choose to leave before you are 55 through whichever course of action (pvr/ngr) you would have been financially disadvantaged. (Notwithstanding the leave in your final year for tax purposes if you intend to continue working scam).

To 'sack' people presently employed in a 'pic' that does not get subsequently disestablished is forbidden under civil law and more often these days, civil law is being adhered to by the military. I know that HMG believe themselves to have a get-out-clause for all walks of lifes mysteries but EDP for the rest of your life is somewhat differant to a time critical PA pension. I guess the punchline is that some people may find themselves in an unwanted position that could be legally challenged, unless Manning box very clever at a targeted audience. Of course the closure of any base makes an entire workforce vulnerable even within civilian guidelines.

Tiger,

AFPS05 is not terribly complicated, but is widely misunderstood - especially by those not on it.

As an example, but I don't want to have to go through all the fine detail, if you leave the RAF on AFPS05 at 54 years 364 days you (ultimately) get more money than someone who left at 55. You just don't get it as early (hence your personal circumstances are very important).

Exactly how far before your 55 point you can leave under AFPS05 and still get the same amount of money as if you had stayed to the end I haven't calculated, but it wouldn't be too hard to work out!

Mmmmm,
First off, many folk join the services to enjoy world travel and a regular shift from base to base. If you were a kipper fleet NCO you got sent to Kinloss (since DG closed) and rotted there until Andy Stewart became Emperor. Having resolved themselves to accept this lack of movement, many tried desperately to enjoy curling, caelidhs, and various winter sports - which every sensible chap knows are uncomfortable at best and dangerous otherwise. Don't tell folk who have been denied the opportunity to enjoy our dwindling number of far flung bases over the years that they're somehow at fault for counting on the moribund stability they've endured for several decades now that the goalposts have been moved - overnight.

The problem with an airbase closure, which is what we are almost certainly looking at, is that your house is on the market along with a hell of a lot of other houses, all at the same time.

Moray is currently aghast, I think it'd be fair to say - it's not just the RAF personnel, but the local towns are having nightmares about the loss of income from the RAF, at the same time as local government cuts are biting deep and about to draw blood. Now dump lots of houses on the local market, which is far from buoyant anyway....I'm sure many a serviceman is currently imagining being permanently away from home, if he/she is posted elsewhere, as it will probably take years and years to break even on the house.... when it finally sells... and the wife/hubby and kids can join them.

Now throw in the closure of RAF Lossie, which everyone thinks is a foregone conclusion, and the problem doubles.

An individual being required to exit - well, tough luck, dry your eyes princess etc (I dislike that phrase, it seems to denote the self abusers in our community frankly) - but when you close a station the problems magnify tremendously, and I think it's more than a little stupid to not realise that this isn't a 'you are all subject to posting' type problem but a major upheaval that should never have been required....had our finances been appropriately managed.

So, my sympathy is with the personnel of RAF Kinloss, I expect to extend that sympathy to Lossie 6 months or so down the line, the people of Moray who will suffer the double whammy of harsh cuts in local government spending coupled with the deletion of a large part of the local community will also need - but I guess won't get - some help too.

Almost unnoticeable in all this, is the impact of losing so many folk who spent their spare time contributing to virtually every local charity, every local initiative - a LOT of the things that improved the lives of all around here will go when Kinloss dies.

Yes, I think NCA - but also everyone else at Kinloss - should be given a break. The defence review (bollerks, it was a spending review) has incidentally probably economically blighted a large part of Scotland, which call me Dave probably doesn't care about as there's more chance of Bin Laden getting the local seat than a Tory... as an englishman living and working in Forres, following a career ('he careered downhill') as NCO aircrew, I think we should all currently be booing and hissing the politicians, not servicemen.

Dave

At least you guys are signed on to 55 so to get rid of you all would require a hefty pay off and an immediate pension. Us Groundies dont have any of the benefits you guys get and we are in at work every day while we watch the aircrew bretheren each side of us on permanant gardening leave. You think you have it bad :=

Plenty of us not signed on to 55 matey..

As for me, i'm worth a pittence in redundency, dont qualify for ressettlement grant for another 18 months, and have little future in an Air Force I was hoping to give 30+ years of my life...

Sorry I thought all Aircrew were signed on to that :(
Well I hope they give the guys a good pay off anyway. Plenty guys can move on and get a new career with some cash in the bank. I just hope its true they are going to fish out you guys to the commonwealth countries and the US to keep the trade.