Give him a break....
 

Any way you look at it, Kris Ward IS about to loose his "job". He wont be flying Harriers for much longer. He's pi$$ed off and has every right to be.
Sure he ll not be on the streets just yet and when he finally leaves he ll get a tidy wedge. Last time I looked, most service type folks weren't in it for the cash though so it wont exactly fill the gap.
Additionally (and in my opinion), although he used the first person, I got that distinct feeling that he was speaking with a voice for all who have been affected by this review. Well I thought so anyway........

Ratty,

Now hold right there.

No he is not! He might stop flying Harriers but that was an inevitability given his rank as a lt cdr anyway and he will still be paid HM's shilling if he cares to continue to serve (well unless he (and you too) happen to hold the opposing view to what follows below).

Ward's approach to the whole affair was, I'm afraid, self-centred in my opinion and unbecoming of an officer. As an officer, our first priority is to behave like one. There are far too many aircrew, and I include the RAF here, who consider themselves to be aircrew (I won't single out pilots particularly but you know where I am coming from) first and officers second! That frankly is the wrong way round! An officer's duty is to serve and, whilst doing so, uphold the dignity of the Service - not attempt to achieve 30 seconds of fame when confronted by our most senior politician.

He failed - end of!

Yours Sincerely

A retired officer who flew for 20 years and served for 40!

Foldie:}

Nice one Sharkeys Lad, im proud of you. Notice all the other Wafus kept stum:* ....Sharkeys lad had nothing to lose by speaking up since his job had all but been axed before his very eyes via Cameron. Sharkey "I've flown 140 missions out in Afghan ... Camerons reply, "Thank you for all you've done, (now sod off and go and join the dole queue!")

^^^^

You're going to have to shout louder Foldie ;)

as has been said " Like father like son".

Show them a microphone or a camera and it is all "over here ,me,me,me"

Very sad.

I agree, he's 37 for chr#sts sake and should know better. So what if he's done 140 missions in A. Do you get a free job with every 150 missions out there or what.
Couldn't take a joke old boy......shouldn't have joined. Your dad must have told you that one time and time again (140 times actually:sad:)k.
Listen sharkey - do your time get your severance pay and bum a job with Virgin...tough life eh?

Well said - completely agree

Maybe if more had spoken up, both serving officers and civil servants, we wouldn't be in this mess. Far too many practice supine appeasement and sycophancy.

Apparently the whole exchange was edited for the purposes of tv. The actual exchange went as follows:

"Hello sir I'm a harrier pilot who has flown 140 missions in afghan, in a harrier that is....me being a harrier pilot. So there I was, in my harrier over Afghanistan, 140 times, just me in the cockpit as the pilot...of the harrier. Now where was I......oh yes, with the harrier being taken out of service, how am I going to fly my harrier, me being the pilot and all. So what I'm trying to say is...how would you feel if, like me you were a harrier pilot who was now unemployed with no harrier to fly because even though I'm still a pilot there are no harriers to fly........uhm, did I mention that I was a harrier pilot."

PS - this is an abridged version, but you get the idea.

Personally, any statement made, be it by harrier mate, challenger driver etc, that makes the PM squirm, gets my thumbs up.

I do believe though, whether intentional or not, that the wording "am a Harrier pilot" was used as a metaphor for any individual affected by the cuts.

Be it, tank driver, ship driver(if you drive ships?) MOD civil servant et al.....


Con-Dem.... Don't blame me....I didn't vote for them!

Did he really say the words, "Please" and "Sir" to 'Call me Dave'. Makes you want to break out in song.

All together now, "As long as he needs me........................"

Foldingwings, I am right with you. The PM's answer to "So what am I supposed to do now?" should have been "Turn to the right, salute and carry on."

Another case of foot in mouth disease.

One recalls the old motto :"Never complain, never explain".

Just get on with it.....

his country and look after his men/team - didn't hear anything about them :uhoh:

They say that the weather in Yuma is very pleasant at this time of the year, 513 perhaps?:cool:

Foldie,

Fair enough...about the spelling mistake anyway.

Look, I get the bit where it's be an Officer first and everything else comes second, but times have changed and not for the better.

I think he was right to speak up and I think its time for everyone in a position of authority to question these politicians and make them squirm. We've been lied to and bull$hitted for long enough now.

MR,

Not by the present Prime Minister, I believe.

Look, something had to give! The Navy have shot themselves in the foot by insisting on their 2 white elephants at the expense of other (some might say) more important roles! Our Sea Lords must have agreed the removal of Ark to get their 2 new boats and LUST is now in helo fit. So, the Harrier was not going to have a platform to operate from and, as I stated in another thread on the SDSR, it is less capable than Tornado GR4 - like it or not!

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...n-harrier.html


Question:
GR4 better than Harrier?

Now, back to the officer in question, he needs to realise some of the above rather than ranting on about how the World can no longer be saved because he is now redundant - No he's not!!

Foldie:ugh:

Why would/should, Sharkys Lad !! Like to have a career change :rolleyes: in the Andrew as a fish head , or sundodger after serving as a FAA, fixed wing pilot???? i think not, redundancy is the only option imho

My very point, Dave!

As I stated in my Post 79 on Page 4:

Note my point: as a lt cdr his days in the cockpit were numbered anyway - hence, IMHO, it was a 'look at me' moment!

Foldie:ugh:

Folding wings.
Can I just say that I despise you for your behavior on this forum. Very unofficerlike in my opinion.
Not good enough for harrier and always held a chip?

His Dad (Sharkey) still very active on the following.

BRITAIN?S FAST JET FORCES ? NATIONAL INTEREST VERSUS VESTED INTEREST. The Phoenix Think Tank

TJ

Laugh out Loud, Tourist! Get over yourself.

It would have been a bit trick for me flying Harriers as I never was a pilot (nor a failed one) but was FJ through and through - and just missed flying cats & traps off Ark to boot.

Actually, I do feel sorry for the Harrier force and their loss but the facts are plain - something had to give and the Harrier was the obvious choice! It was the RN who got rid of SHAR rather too early and the GR9 is not that capable and less so when it doesn't have a deck to operate from!

It's people bleating about it publicly that get my goat!

So do leave it out, Tourist, keep up with the pace of the thread and take the point that Mr Ward has behaved inappropriately!

You're not he are you!!?

What a larf!

Foldie:rolleyes:

Me......ow! :}

Why unofficerlike? I thought the point FW made was entirely justified.

The ethos of officer training (well, in the Army at least) is to always put your men before yourself - so you eat after they have eaten, get your head down after them, wake up before them, eat after them again. As others have pointed out, the appropriately monikered Mental's opening line was "I'm a Harrier pilot and..." The rest was all about self-preservation.

HMG has invested about £3m in his training as a Harrier pilot, so even if he no longer has the opportunity to pay that back as a Harrier pilot, he has the opportunity to pay it back as an RN officer. Even on a ground tour, that is a damn good, honourable, dignified, well paid job, with good career prospects. He should consider himself extremely lucky.

There are a lot of people in the defence industry signing on the dole today.

The good Lt Cdr has just earned himself a 'Career' moment. He now needs to consult his deskie as to whether he will go on to make Flag Rank, or has just pierced his promotion ceiling. Knowing the Navy, it could be difficult to tell.

Foldie and Trim Stab are absolutely right - it was a 'what about me?' moment. It is unfortunate for any pilot to lose their cockpit but to whinge about it on national TV, that is truly bad form, it really is.

Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ies/boohoo.gif

I'm wondering that if on one says something then perhaps that would be the worst of all options and typically British, when there are some significant implications re. this decision. It was put quite well, and so...

The point being, if everyone said nothing (and there was no 'look at me moment' as it has been described) then what?

It's a point, rather than a criticism and I'm genuinely interested in other perspectives on this. Also what perhaps may be a factor in the statement to the effect described is that his father is Sharky Ward. If he wasn't would that change attitudes, perhaps? However would that maintain the principle of challenging when a fair point can be made?

Best regards,
A.

JMP10

Would you like to re-write your post in English?

It would be a bit quiet then!

Your post is a bit like Sharkies book -dodgy - and not very good grammer!!

PS FW - you are spot on.

Thanks for your reply. On your first point, the grammar is fine.

I note you didn't answer the question. I agree it would be quiet, however that's not the point. What is inherently wrong in asking a question and making a point? Or is it a culture of silence and 'grin and bear it' and then later bellyache and whinge? That's one possible interpretation. I'm curious as to why he's receiving so much stick from some, and am asking what other aspects are there informing this.

A.

Ps Grammer [sic] is correctly spelled 'grammar' fyi ;)

The RN 'gave up' the SHAR, he should look closer to home if he wants to blame someone.

Real World
 

I'm not going to snipe at the Lt Cdr because he has the right to put the question and expect a realistic answer, however he should wake up and smell the coffee. I gave up on the belief that loyalty was a two way street many moons ago and this has come as no shock to me, which is hard when you are trying to motivate the JOs. Unfortunately the majority of the general public and politicians just don't see things the way we do and though we have put our live on the line for them we are just in the melting pot with the 25,000 civilian members of the MOD. The retention pay/professional aviator gravy train has reached the end of the line mon brave and the sooner you get to grips with the fact the better. Me?, well I'm looking forward to what the MOD come up with in the next few weeks/months ref the 'package'. If it's anything like it was in 2005/06 then all the good tradesmen will jump ship and the dross will spend their time dodging QR1027.

I think there's a fair chance that he did not expect a justification, though was making the point that it was not the PM who had to deliver the news face-to-face, i.e. it's much easier and not necessarily justified to make decisions that appear arbitrary, though not so easy to implement them for those who effectively do so. The over-arching point being the decision is, by implication, incorrect, which I would hasten to say is the case. I suppose it's really about, in the way he put it, the difference between politicians and others, including and perhaps more so, the military. This is as you stated about the difference between the perception of a two-way street and 'reality'- and moreover as the politicians shape and have further shaped it (to everyone's detriment, it would be fair to say).

It's interesting that instead of address efficiency in some of the largest areas, in fact the largest government employment area- the NHS, they left it unchanged in terms of the budget. As they did for other areas. This is a political gesture and one to safeguard their 'cutting' reputation as the NHS is a 'touch-rail' issue in the UK, as medicare has been in the US for decades. This I believe, with the effective substitution of capability for reform, be a more expensive (in the more substantive sense also) than addressing all that needs to be, and fundamentally so. This trend is also mirrored in their approach to education, which will be highly damaging into the future, and is, when one looks at the figures and other expenses, regressive as the IFS Institute of Fiscal Studies) has stated.

A.

Better Spending?
 

Now I am no economist, but it seems to me that there is a potential to save jobs like these being lost by scrapping the, quite frankly pointless, £30 a week "Educational Maintenance Allowance" for teenagers?

Did I forget to mention that there is a potential for two £100 EMA bonuses at different points throughout the year? It doesn't take a genius to realise that, across the country, a lot of money could be saved per year.

I believe I also forgot to mention that the only requirement for this free beer money is to turn up to school each day.... :ugh:

Signed, A teenager.... :rolleyes:

Jmp10

I suspect you are new here because you used to be busy as John Prescott's speech-mangler. I may be thick but I genuinely don't understand a word of what you are saying/asking. Perhaps you are using a random word generator, or perhaps you are just trying to be funny and ironic - I just can't tell, sorry.

WRT 'Mental' - dodgy nickname. Met the chap when he was going through the QWI cse when I was instructing on a different type. Always seemed capable and affable but certainly not 'Mental' in the A Partridge style of mentalists. The only thing that struck me was that he, possibly genetically, had a bit of an anti-RAF attitude which I never really understood as we are kind of all in it together in my humble opinion.

I feel a bit sorry for him about all the abuse he is getting here. Yes it was a bit of a 'look at me' moment, but I think the sentiment was from the heart. When you see great organizations that have been the major part of the best years of your life wiped away by the stroke of a politicians pen it could probably have the affect of making you a little self-centred and, officer or not, ask the honest question 'what about me?'. Give the guy a break. The mere thought that the GR4 was about to be wiped out of the RAF has made me question my entire service and whether it was worth it. My guess is that despite the aggressive Harrier-boy exterior this is pretty traumatic stuff for him.

As a great many of the army guys will know, much better than us flyers, killing people for your country requires a fair amount of commitment. If you spend the best years of your life doing this and then one day the new politicians wipe away your team as if they never existed you might wonder why you bothered. I'm bloody depressed and my old chariot is soldiering on for a few years yet. He must be absolutely gutted so spare him and his JFH comrades a thought.

As a commercial pilot who has been made redundant I can understand Lt Cdr Ward's reaction quite completely. I have been unemployed as a pilot for almost 2 years, and I have several thousand hours of commercial turbo-prop and jet flying in my log book (no combat or mil flying at all), and I am struggling to get interviews as anything let alone a pilot, and almost no opportunities in the UK, my own home country. Redundancy is a frightening prospect for anyone be they the WEM or WEA or the CO of the Ark Royal, so Lt Cdr Ward's reaction was only human. The fact that his Dad was a Harrier Sky God too, and Sharkey Minor had 140 Afghanistan combat missions in his log book was just too juicy for our impartial and unemotional unsensationalist press, especially the Daily Telegraph who put a great photo of Ward Senior and Minor on the front page!

Redundancy
 

Hmm, I think posters are being a little unfair about Lt Cdr Ward. Yes - it was a 'Me' moment, but it was a leitmotif for the state we are in. I am in a similar situation: I have given 2/3rds of my life to the Service of the Crown both at Home and abroad (where I am now serving) and my current tenure looks decidedly iffy and likely to be cut. Moreover, it is unlikely that there will be a suitable appointment for me in the UK. I love what I do and get enormous satisaction of being in the Service. If the PM or a similar worthy turned up to address us and say, en passant, 'you are likely to lose your job, your house, CEA etc etc...', I would take him to task on a personal level, because these cuts suddenly become very visceral and directly affect me and my family. Give the guy a break. He has annuciated the angst many of those serving feel.

A WO gave me some good advice many years ago:

"Just remember, Sir, when you walk out of the Stn gates for the last time, the RAF doesn't give a monkey's whether you turn left or right"

The hard reality of life is that we take what's owed to us: pay, allowances, housing etc, and in exchange we give our committment, effort and obedience, and sometimes our lives. That's the deal, and we all chose to take it. Anything else (including the provision of specific aircraft types so that we can continue to enjoy flying them) is a bonus.

Red line entry - well said.

There are few occasions where one is able to feather ones nest more so than in the military. Notching up innumerable 'qualifications' en route, it could be said that opportunities for future employment would be greater and not less than the equivalent civilian's career path.
Now add to that the additional golden opportunities that come from flying in the military, being a middle manager, flying jets...and the world really is your 'lobster' :).
For someone like this, in his position, to even doubt what his future holds, suggests a whiff of superciliousness to say the least.

Can you imagine sharing a cockpit with someone like this when it comes to CRM.
I remember a time when airlines wouldn't touch pilots like this (phantom drivers) for this very reason - too dyed in the wool, too old to change.

Maybe he should be worried after all:sad:

Anyone else find this whole "dynasty" thing a bit suspicious? I mean, it's like the US-bloody-Government. Isn't the redheaded red arrow chick a second gen, too?

P

Rather like his father's 'welcome' to Black Buck in 1982, the chap opened his mouth without thinking. As a senior officer with valuable operational experience, at age 38 Ward is (was?) more than likely to have enjoyed predictable and continued service in related ground appointments - unlike a number of his less fortunate colleagues. And, as ever, serving officers are not allowed 'me' outbursts. Well said Foldie - move on Lt Cdr. That is not to say that I do not lament the Harrier's demise, regardless of justification.