PM 'Disrespect' Armed Forces
 

Shades of Michael Foot; somehow I think this pretty much says it all and you can pretty much write a defence review based on which projects keep which jobs alive MPs' constituencies

VC winner Beharry 'snubbed Brown' - *UK News - MSN News UK

Flug

Much respect to the young gentleman :ok:

But watch out for the Mandelscum Smear Machine as it rumbles into action....

Full marks to Beharry. Zero to Brown.

JB :D

GB w:mad:r

I would do the same, but then I don't have a VC so the effect would probably be lost. Good for you young man.

Can we vote for L/CPL Beharry as pm?

How about a political party made up of purely ex-servicemen ( and women )

CS

Inasmuch as both L/CPL Johnson Beharry and Gordon Brown are supposedly " professionals " , neither should have allowed this to develop to the point where the most highly decorated living soldier is at loggerheads with the PM. Perhaps both should get off their " high horses ". The PM has a lot on his mind , especially what exactly to do with his unemployed self on May 7th.

Much as I cannot wait to see the back of GB, I do not think that his body language on Remembrance Day showed disrespect to our armed forces. It seemed to me that he was showing signs of stress and depression.

In particular it must be highly stressful to be standing there on such an occasion when the bodies of brave servicemen and women continue to return from Afghanistan - and he has the power to stop it.

I am sorry to say that I think that L/Cpl Beharry has it wrong on this occasion.

Maybe someone should have sidled up alongside Brown and slapped him out of his current depression. That said, it's not necessarily in the bag for the Tories on 6th May. I fancy the absurd state of affairs where Alex Salmond has to approach Buckingham Palace and ask the Queen for permission to form the U.K's first SNP Government with a tiny majority.

Can you imagine the expression on everyone's faces, especially the super-bewildered look on Salmond's!?!?!:O

FB

Seems to me a good reason to resign and to have called an election sooner. Loses the election, stress disappears and cures the depression for the whole population.

A very poor display by a professional.

Whether you like the PM or not is irrelevant BUT the PM represents the people of the UK and as such he should be treated with the respect the office deserves.

Whether he personally is deserving of that respect is something else BUT that office warrants respect which the VC winner has failed to do.

No doubt there will be some say he was appointed and not elected as he did not stand for election on that basis, it was clear however prior to last election that Blair would stand down.

However I would also refer people back to WW2 and note that Winston Churchill did not stand for election as a potential PM in the General Election pre WW2, nor indeed did John Major during the build up to Gulf War 1.

As a serving member of HM forces he doesn't get to decide who he likes in the leadership above him. His only input is at election time when he can vote for which ever candidate he wants or none at all.

The willingness to go to press sets a dangerous precedent as what happens when a serving soldier goes public and slates the Head of the Armed Forces because he is from RAF and doesn't understand the Army.

Resspect has to be earned. The office might have to be respected but an incompetent bumbling holder of the office does not. Brown is is a waste of time, so far as the Forces are concerned, and to a lot of other people as well.

racedo,

The 'govern'ment traded any sense of 'respect' when they sent soldiers to fight a war based on lies.

They can't have it both ways & fair play to the VC for saying what most of the country are thinking.

If PM's traded respect by sending me to war based on lies then there is NO PM that could meet those so called standards because every person has been sent to war based on lies. This is what politicians do, compromise and lie to achieve what they want and a politicians aim is re election and a legacy. The requirements to be PM are not set by anybody but the party who can muster a majority of votes in Parliament.

The Armed Forces don't get to choose their political masters nor should they.

Sadly it seems people are happy to support the Lance Corporal based on their hatred for the Politics of the PM rather than seeing a bigger picture.

I wonder would Maggie still be loved if Galtieri had waited a year to start the Falklands war ?

When you are in Uniform you don't get involved in Party politics and sadly that is what has occured here.

Normally I would agree that members of the Armed Forces should be above political opinion.

But we're talking about the despicable nuLabor here, so normal rules surely cannot apply...

Your annual assessment - signed by HC Andersen or the brothers Grimm?

Get real, I hate to admit it but once again, I agree with BEagle. This shower of **** have long ago given up the right to have respect.

Or are the guys and girls (all citizens by the way) supposed to just take it on the nose everytime Brown and cronies feel like dishing it out?

This is the man who said: "every Pound on Defence was a wasted Pound". If that's the case then bring then home.

Once again...racedo
 

"When you are in Uniform you don't get involved in Party politics and sadly that is what has occured here........

So on the basis of his opinion that he "appeared" uninterested he then gets involved in a pretty petty insult.

Those claiming its ok because they dislike the party should perhaps ask the question of when someone uses the actions of said Lance Corporal to act inappropriately with a senior officer or HM herself then will you think person is acting rightly or wrongly.

If he wishes to protest then do so out of Uniform not in Uniform.

The difference is the Mr Beharry as proved beyond all doubt that people mattered to him.

I wonder if the same can be said for Gordon Brown, the jury is out and the tea leaves would tend to indicate there is more bad news to come - especially if blinkered fools vote for him and his corrupt government.

I'm now in civvies so I can say that - the man is an arse (no, actually not, they're useful).

Comment deleted - personal attacks not tolerated in here!

racedo, they broke the covenant and were found out, they deserve no respect.

It's not political either, the tories would have done the same as bliar & chums, they're all scum.

Beagle,

Normal rules do apply. As a civilian, you are (now) entitled to rant as much as you wish. However, Beharry's gallantry should not hide the fact that he is still serving and as such should not be publicising his personal opinion of the coutry's Prime Minister

Interesting though that he refused to shake the PM's hand - I wonder if ordering him to do so would be a legal order...?

And at the risk of ever-so-slight thread drift, how does 29 days to go fit with the need for deployed forces to register/fill in/return postal votes by the due deadline ......

..... or are they to be disenfranchised....?

Edited to add: Much info about Service Voters here on the Electoral Commission website. Which admits that deployed troops may not be able to get a postal vote back in time!! However, a "proxy vote" may be used, providing your other half/significant other/Mum shares your political views. Spread the word!

To the Moderator who chopped my comment
 

Fair cop, sorry about that. I think it obvious, I was a trifle agitated.

The 'stiff upper lip' and 'take it on the chin' frame of mind really doesn't work for me when our people are being shafted then shafted again.

In the days when government respected (or at least were respectful of) the armed forces, being non-partisan in politics was achievable, I think that these days are gone (hopefully only for now).

I think that with these days of evermore watchful and 'troublesome' investigative journalism, the populace in general are being made far more aware of our 'lords and masters' indiscretions. Politicians are known for being cynical, never more than now - everybody is dispensible in their quest for power and nest-feathering (a la Hoon, Byers et al).

PMQs
 

According to Gordon Brown at PMQs today, he is very respectful of the armed forces and indeed, asked CDS if there were enough helicopters in Afghanistan. Indeed, he always ensures that there are sufficient resources for all military operations.

So, it would seem, CDS (Sir Jock) and his service staffs gave the wrong 'advice'. It is hard to imagine that such officers are so incompetent. They really ought to have been removed from their posts!

Or perhaps we should believe that Gordon Brown is a lying b***ard and is a traitor to this country. But of course he is too great a man to have to answer for his crime.

"According to Gordon Brown at PMQs today, he is very respectful of the armed forces and indeed, asked CDS if there were enough helicopters in Afghanistan. Indeed, he always ensures that there are sufficient resources for all military operations."

"So, it would seem, CDS (Sir Jock) and his service staffs gave the wrong 'advice'. It is hard to imagine that such officers are so incompetent. They really ought to have been removed from their posts!"

However hard it may be to imagine.... give it a try. Try your hardest.

Stirrup is a place-man left in post over and above his normal "tour length" precisely because he is the least politically disruptive for Brown. As for his competance in post... make of that what you will, given Brown's history.

I know I'm biased. Never liked Stirrup, never will. Not that he'll lose any sleep over that. :mad:

'So on the basis of his opinion that he "appeared" uninterested he then gets involved in a pretty petty insult.

Those claiming its ok because they dislike the party should perhaps ask the question of when someone uses the actions of said Lance Corporal to act inappropriately with a senior officer or HM herself then will you think person is acting rightly or wrongly.

If he wishes to protest then do so out of Uniform not in Uniform.'

Don't remember swearing allegiance to the PM when I joined up. Brown deserves no respect and has certainly not earned any. He is a disgrace as a PM with his appalling attitude towards the Armed Forces. He has only started appearing pro-military because an election is looming. The sooner he is gone the better. Well done to Beharry for doing what I am sure 99% of the current and former Military would like the opportunity to do.

I have a nice piece of paper stached away somewhere, signed by HM that says I worked for Her not Gordon Brown. :ok: Hope all you boys & girls in uniform get your votes cast next month wherever you are; we might just get rid of him and his shabby government. Anyone know of a labour MP with family in the services ? Not sure they have a clue what serving our country is about; too busy fiddling expences.

If we have enough helicopters in theatre, according to the Principal Moron (PM) why are we ordering more, to be delivered after the proposed date for the withdrawal of our Forces from AFGH?

racedo,

WW2 lies ?
Falklands more lies ??
GW1 even more lies ???

I think your spouting is based on lies.

B
 

I cannot agree that a politician, even if fully democratically elected, deserves respect in every instance (or should that read as 'should not be openly criticised by an employee'?). By that qualification both Hitler and Stalin would have been beyond reproach. Not that I would compare the PM with those two, but unblinking loyalty and respect based solely on the holder's office is by no means automatic. 'Respect' seems to work best when it is mutual.

Flug

In which case why did you take orders from people who were not HM ?
Oh wait they were appointed by the Government of HM, as is the Prime Minister.

Sadly this has degenerated into a well as its a Labour PM then its ok to do whatever he wants while ignoring the way the Tories acted with respect to the Armed forces.

I think GB has been a pathethic PM, but then again I thought Jim Callaghan, Maggie for quite a long period, John Major and Tony Blair were just as pathetic.

However they were the PMs and while in that position deserve the respect that the position commands even though I feel they were unworthy of the position . But then again only the elected MPs get to choose the PM.

I believe allowing a member of the forces in uniform to act inappropriately sends a wrong message and allows people to question the conduct and professionalism of our forces at a time when the support of the public is required.

It's because of people with your thought process that this country is in the current mess it finds itself.

You'd rather pander to keeping up appearances and etiquette than actually cutting the head off the snake, the PM and all politicians should be ashamed and slated to eternity.
People are being killed on a daily basis, and that is due to PM & friends.

I doubt you've ever signed up fwiw, or else you'd actually value what you say and maybe think before typing.

I do agree that the cons would be no better, that doesn't mean brown/bliar shouldn't be berated from high heaven, they're all scum.

Pious,

Well said, sir.

Racedo,

You are wrong. Brown deserves absolutely no respect from anyone in uniform. The Queen is the Head of State, not that idiot. The Royal Family understand the Forces and as such have earned our respect, as evidenced during Prince Charles' recent visit to Theatre. He can relate to what the Military and, as importantly, our families, go through when loved ones are away, Brown and his cronies never will. That is why they do not care a jot about the Military, they are only interested in safeguarding their votes and money, as evidenced by their cowtowing to the corrupt left-wing unions.

where were my desert boots?
 

A couple of years ago Brown the PM visited Basrah. As he entered Brigade HQ ops room, miraculously everyone seemed to need to make an urgent phone call. GB approached the only available person, a female Australian Army captain. He thanked her for "all the hard work you are doing for our country". It was rather amusing, as she was clearly wearing different DPM combats complete with Aussie flags on - but also showed he can't pick a UK service person in a line-up. I don't think anyone was being political by 'snubbing' him; certainly for me, it was personal. Rightly or wrongly I blame him for the problems we have experienced and continue to experience having tried to fight 2 conflicts with inadequate funding for all the necessary equipment, training and support. Not in his current job as PM and I don't have a problem with us being sent to either conflict (and I've served several times in both). I blame GB the former Chancellor for lack of adequate funding.

I didn't want to be part of his photo opportunity - don't forget, all you people who keep making the point that it isn't appropriate for Armed Forces personnel to behave politically: the politicians continuously use Armed Forces personnel for party politics. That was why GB came to Basrah that time (he was almost going to call a snap general election and he wanted to be on TV surrounded by smiling troops to get one over on the Tories), it was for PR not out of respect. If I am not allowed to be political in public, fine, but I don't wish to be used publicly for party politics either.

I actually wanted to ask him where my f***ing desert boots were, promised in Jan 03 and never turned up. 56 deg and winter boots. Followed by 7 years (and counting) of insufficient funding for what we're asked to achieve. I didn't ask him about my boots - I had no desire to embarrass my commanding officer, and I didn't have the balls anyway. But there was an urgent call I had to make. Find someone else to shake your hand for the cameras.

Gentlemen/Ladies as appropriate:

I'm proud of you. Well said.

You keep confusing this.

I am asking for respect for the Prime Minister who ever he or she is, as elected by parliament who are elected by the people.

The fact that you seek to make it based on an individual is incorrect.

What if the next PM doesn't feel enamoured with the military does it then allow the military to decide whether it wishes to respect the PM or not ?

I'm with racedo on this.
Perhaps if it was put in terms of non commissioned personnel deciding to ignore certain commissioned officers because they have no respect for them (it's true there are some officers who really should not have been commissioned) you can start to see the problem, which is where racedo s coming from I think.
Someone mentioned the scroll earlier- it says HM and her duly appointed ministers and representatives. Brown is duly appointed.
Maybe we could take this disrespect idea further. HM can force the dissolution of a Parliament if she feels her ministers are not up to the job.
Seems to me that neither she, nor Chas actually do give a stuff as they are, effectively, irrelevant to politics in Britain.

Oh and I won't be voting for Labour

GB may be appointed by HM but he is chosen from within the ranks of the Labour party by the members of that party - not fully democratic and not representative of the wishes of the population at large

Was L/Cpl Beharry right to snub the PM? Probably a bit rude, eh?

Would I do the same? YES.

My wife and I have our "Letter from Betty" on the study wall behind me ... nothing there that says my loyalty is/was to the PM. Just to my Queen and my military superiors. The parchment says, as many of you know "... Observe and follow such Orders and Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any superior Officer ..."

I don't see some transient politician mentioned there, on either copy.

So Gordo can "strut and fret his hour upon the stage", but he will NEVER have the respect of the British military community.

[Still a bit f-ing rude, though, Johnson :ok:]

No

PM is chosen by votes of Members of Parliament, all of whom are elected by the wishes of the population at large in an election.

racedo,

Check your facts!

"The voting is split equally three ways between Labour MPs and the Labour MEPs, party members and members of affiliated trade unions who have not opted out of paying a political levy." Reuters

This certainly isn't a new topic; perhaps we should remember the following thread:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...-shabbily.html