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-   -   OFFICER and AIRCREW 'CANDIDATES' PLEASE READ THIS THREAD FIRST! (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/405176-officer-aircrew-candidates-please-read-thread-first.html)

YellowTom 10th Aug 2017 22:47

Hello Hawk98,

Sorry to hear you didn't get the answer you were hoping for, the feedback you mention could mean one of two things:

You have the leadership experience they're looking for but you didn't communicate that you do well enough for them to feel you do. Leadership and management experience, especially at a relatively young age, will come in many shapes and sizes, and won't always clearly be labelled as such when you think how to answer the question.

Or, you gave accurate answers but have just yet to build up the levels of leadership experience they're looking for.


I'd imagine that at your age they're looking for a range of leadership experience rather someone with narrow focussed but exceptionally strong leadership skills which perhaps a much older person would develop in their career. Do you have anyone in the cadets who can help you look at your leadership experience from a different angle?


I'll let you read the previous postings in this thread to decide whether joining a ground trade and then reapplying for an aircrew role or commissioned branch is a good idea!

Bugs to forty 11th Aug 2017 08:04

Hawk

Further to the advise above... as you know, the purpose if the FI is to ensure you're ready for OASC; for whatever reason, on this occasion your AFCO thought not. Actually, he's won you some useful thinking and preparation time and the offer to return in just 3 months is positive. Had the AFCO put you forward when not ready, a subsequent potentially weak OASC performance could have been a waste of your CBAT score... remember, you cannot repeat OASC within 12 months.

You should now have a look at what else you've done/you're doing other than ATC: regular physical exercise and some work in the community are quick wins with the latter maybe even providing an opportunity for you to further display your leadership skills.

Thereafter, your next FI will be almost identical to the one you've just taken; think about that carefully and I guarantee you'll be more confident and will deliver a better performance. And finally, given your apparent aptitude it is sensible to include WSOp with an OASC attempt because the Boarding Officers will have the opportunity to take a broader view on your potential. Good luck.

Melchett01 11th Aug 2017 22:36

Hawk,

I first read your post yesterday, and my immediate first reaction was that sounds bloody daft, just how much leadership and management can a 19 year old have under their belt? That's why when I went through longer ago than I would care to remember, those coming in from the ranks were expected to show more than someone of the same age coming in from education. But instinct said not to reply right away, there was something not quite right, and YellowTom and Bugs have it right - I think.

At your age, there is only so much you leadership and management you can acquire, and there's no way you can improve significantly in 3 months. The selection process for individuals at your stage generally looks more for potential, even if slightly raw and agricultural. And at your stage, with limited experience that means it's about how you sell yourself.

So what you now need to do is work out how to make what experience you do have relevant to the Selection board. I won't do all the work for you, but you might want to research what exactly the RAF looks for in terms of leadership (there are documents out there) and then work out how your profile fits into those traits - and then spell that out at interview, making specific reference to what you are benchmarking your experience against. If you can't substantially increase what you have, you best make most efficient use of what you've got. Your profile, from what you have posted, isn't too dissimilar to mine at your age, probably better in some respects, and I did alright in the end. And don't worry, all the best guys have a couple of goes at selection!

Edited to add - your thoughts about the RN instead. You will probably find that barring differences in how they score aptitude tests, all the services generally look for the same sort of thing in terms of leadership potential. It's easier to hop between services if it's an aptitude issue than for a leadership / personal development issue. I wouldn't say don't give it a go, I would just say don't expect it to be any easier if you haven't first ironed out any issues in the feedback you got from the Careers Office.

NDW 12th Aug 2017 10:06


Originally Posted by Hawk98 (Post 9857344)
Hi chaps,
It's been a little while since I posted on Pprune so please bare with me! I'm currently 19 years old and have been applying to join as either a pilot, RPAS pilot or WSOp, attended the P2 presentation, flew through my CBAT and gone on a station visit (to add to the countless ones I've done with cadets) in anticipation for my filter interview. Come Monday this week I turned up for my interview nice and early - and well - failed! Now the reasoning they gave behind this (I'm not questioning their judgement, just curious) is that I lack sufficient leadership experience/skills and also management experience. Now this is a fair point I'm sure, but bearing in mind I was a cadet for 5 years, did about every course available to me, and in the last year led the squadron (through camp, competitions) and also helped run a couple of clubs in school, how much leadership experience do they expect of someone my age? As understandably I was fairly gutted and have been given the option of coming back in three months to try again (which the interviewing Sgt thought would be difficult) or entering as a ground trade then trying to re role in a few years. I'm also considering going down the aircrewman route in the Navy but am unsure whether I will have to wait that three months before they would interview me?(my aptitude test is valid until the start of June 2018)

Sorry about the length!


Hi mate,

I, personally, can't see why you couldn't apply to the Royal Navy and have your interview fairly pronto. From personal experience with the RN, they were very good and very quick through the application process.
I applied Feb 2016, did my RT (Recruit test, similar to the RAF AST) for Aircrewman, followed swiftly by my interview (about 10 days later IIRC) and then the medical (where I hit a slight brick wall and my application got delayed 5 months). I'd give it a go if I were you. I just wish I continued with mine but I'll be too old by the time I can re-apply.

Best of luck.

Sky Sports 5th Oct 2017 13:41

Early Medical?
 
My 16 year old lad has had his heart set on becoming Officer Aircrew for a long time. His whole life for the last 4 years has been geared around achieving it, much to his credit.
He has got 9 A grade GCSE's, is studying 4 A-levels, is a Flt Sgt in air cadets and is a solo glider pilot.

All good so far. However, he has turned into a lanky git, standing at 6'2" already. He is acutely aware there are limits on limb length etc. and the self doubt is starting to creep in. He has said on a couple of occasions he doubts he will pass the medical and he is starting to distance himself from his dream to avoid heartbreak.

So my question is this, is it possible to have an early sizing medical, either military or civvy, so he knows one way or the other?

Pontius Navigator 5th Oct 2017 20:03

I searched for RAF Anthromorphic measurements

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...VBvuK0BiBb1jza

This might give you some guidance. Do a similar search yourself.

WingsofRoffa 27th Oct 2017 11:44

Does anybody know the rules surrounding being allergic to Penicillin, will this bar Pilot entry?

I have read in multiple places that you are given a med tag and it's ok beyond that as alternative antibiotics are available.

As a point; I've never had a type 1 reaction and my only reaction was deemed mild.

Clive Roberts 7th Nov 2017 10:22

Handle ambiguity
 
Handle ambiguity?

Sound like one of those PC phrases which makes paperwork for selection boards.

In my experience, it meant getting several conflicting courses of action thrown at you whilst things were diverging badly from the plan whilst airborne, and being able (arrogant enough?) to select the (possibly only) one which results in a safe landing somewhere.

No doubt, within the MOD, life is much more .. um .. ambiguous.

richlear 8th Nov 2017 16:35

Hi

Does anyone have an idea of what percentage of those suitably qualified peole walking into an AFCO actually make it to a squadron as a pilot? I know there are a lot of variables, this is for a presentation on military flying to an ATC squadron. I want to get a point across so some rough numbers will suffice.

Thanks in advance.

muppetofthenorth 8th Nov 2017 17:59


Originally Posted by richlear (Post 9950745)
Hi

Does anyone have an idea of what percentage of those suitably qualified peole walking into an AFCO actually make it to a squadron as a pilot? I know there are a lot of variables, this is for a presentation on military flying to an ATC squadron. I want to get a point across so some rough numbers will suffice.

Thanks in advance.

The old, oft-quoted and therefore no doubt apocryphal stat for FJ pilots was 1:10,000.

Large pinch of sodium chloride needed.

Bugs to forty 8th Nov 2017 18:25

Who are you and why are you presenting? If you're representing the AFCO, they should arm you with some up to date stats. If you're currently serving - brilliant, if only more would give some of their time to provide such opportunities? But still, speak to the AFCO or OASC.

Anyhow, it's good that you're there and the following might help:

About 19% of pilot applicants pass the required aptitude tests but thereafter its a numbers game based simply on demand and supply. If the doors are very open, around 25% of those attending OASC could get selected to IOT.

After that is flying training which, based on recent evidence, has around a 90% success rate from EFT to front line.

All that said, if you're talking to ATC what they must understand is that an increasing number of pilot applications are received from those currently serving in the ranks; that performance at CBAT peaks at around 22 years of age; and that many of the attributes sought at OASC can be improved through some 'time in'. In other words, if you want to be a pilot, but don't pass CBAT first time, then unless you have a better plan (e.g. university)... don't be afraid to join anyway... get stuck in and enjoy yourself... then take the CBAT again in 12 months time (if that's still what you want)!

charliegolf 8th Nov 2017 23:02


Originally Posted by muppetofthenorth (Post 9950833)
The old, oft-quoted and therefore no doubt apocryphal stat for FJ pilots was 1:10,000.

Large pinch of sodium chloride needed.

Less than 13000 people joined ALL the regular armed services in the year to 31 Aug 17. So the oft quoted is a bit low maybe?

CG

Pontius Navigator 9th Nov 2017 08:40

I asked a former president at OASC and this is their response:


Well over 10 years ago now but I think it was 1:1200. I imagine it will be less these days. A big draw used to be the pension and other benefits no longer around. Bear in mind though that that's anyone walking into an AFCO with random quals saying they want to be a pilot and actually in possession of quals more suited to a trade apprenticeship. It's not 'FJ pilot' though. Just pilot. We recruited with an assumption for FJ (aptitude, medical fitness etc) and any who did not make FJ could then be hived off for ME or rotary. Aptitude tests etc were all designed with the assumption that the potential pilot had the aptitude to fly whatever was considered to be the most complex platform of the day. E.g, we morphed the aptitude tests away from testing predominately hand, eye, foot coord (although still a factor) required for the most complex platform of the time (GR7) to be more about spatial orientation and ability to process and act on complex and multiple information streams associated with the Typhoon as we geared up for the first Typhoon Ab Initios. Perhaps something similar is being done now with the advent of Litening II.
CG, so well less than 1:10,000 which is logical given buoyant recruiting in the past against the perceived disadvantages of Service life today compared with the commercial draw out side.

muppetofthenorth 9th Nov 2017 09:02


Originally Posted by charliegolf (Post 9951147)
Less than 13000 people joined ALL the regular armed services in the year to 31 Aug 17. So the oft quoted is a bit low maybe?

CG

In fairness, I did say it old and most likely wrong. It was the number bandied around a bit before I joined the UAS in '05.

richlear 9th Nov 2017 09:56

Thanks all.

charliegolf 9th Nov 2017 14:31


Originally Posted by muppetofthenorth (Post 9951482)
In fairness, I did say it old and most likely wrong. It was the number bandied around a bit before I joined the UAS in '05.

And to be further fair, I'm always interested at the possible answer, which seems impossible to pin down, but it's numbers, so someone knows!:ok:

CG

(thinks: OASC must have throughput numbers from, say, 2005, which could be checked...)

muppetofthenorth 9th Nov 2017 17:07


Originally Posted by charliegolf (Post 9951855)
And to be further fair, I'm always interested at the possible answer, which seems impossible to pin down, but it's numbers, so someone knows!:ok:

CG

(thinks: OASC must have throughput numbers from, say, 2005, which could be checked...)

Definitely.
But what do you measure? Anyone who walks in,
picks up a leaflet but never darkens their door again (would that be counted anywhere?), only those who actually fill out forms, or get to an interview, or something else?

Numbers exist, but you can make numbers say anything you want them to say.

charliegolf 9th Nov 2017 21:26

Maybe measure anyone who gets to Biggin/Cranwell, and look at the percentage of those reaching a squadron. If you got that far and washed out before CR, I reckon you earned the right to say, "Iwas a fast jet pilot/(insert the branch of interest). I was NCA (airman aircrew in imperial units!), so'd like to see those numbers.

It would be a better yardstick than that old chestnut, 'you're in the top x% of the population': most of the population couldn't give a fig!

CG

muppetofthenorth 10th Nov 2017 10:06


Originally Posted by charliegolf (Post 9952252)
Maybe measure anyone who gets to Biggin/Cranwell, and look at the percentage of those reaching a squadron. If you got that far and washed out before CR, I reckon you earned the right to say, "Iwas a fast jet pilot/(insert the branch of interest). I was NCA (airman aircrew in imperial units!), so'd like to see those numbers.

It would be a better yardstick than that old chestnut, 'you're in the top x% of the population': most of the population couldn't give a fig!

CG

Potentially, but then you've already lost a lot of people who didn't make it through the medical or the filter interview...
Maybe it should be counted against all those who sat through a P2 presentation, the part at the AFCO before your filter...?

camelspyyder 14th Nov 2017 07:59

ISTR that the WSOp classes at Cranwell about 5 years ago were around 7-10% of those invited for selection. However that in itself does not tell you just how many more applied and did not attend OASC.


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