Nimrod to go by March
 

The Times: RAF's Nimrod plane fleet withdrawn in defence cuts

The RAF’s fleet of 11 Nimrod surveillance aircraft, one of which catastrophically burst into flames, killing 14 servicemen in Afghanistan in 2006, is to be withdrawn from service by March as part of a range of defence cuts announced yesterday. Bob Ainsworth, the Defence Secretary, denied that the decision to axe the Nimrod Mark 2s a year earlier than planned had anything to do with the crash of Nimrod XV230, which was caused by leaking fuel, and he insisted that it was still safe to fly. He told the Commons that the decision was purely for financial reasons.........

Mr Ainsworth also announced that the programme to introduce a replacement, the Nimrod MRA4, was going to be delayed. With the Mark 2s scrapped by the end of March, this will leave a capability gap, defence sources confirmed.

The first MRA4, one of nine ordered, will be delivered to RAF Kinloss in Morayshire, home of the Nimrods, in February but it will not be operational for a long time because the crews will have to carry out lengthy flight training. “It is a brand new aircraft, so it will take time,” a defence official said.

One of the principal roles of the Nimrod is to protect Britain’s nuclear submarine deterrent as it leaves Faslane on the Clyde for patrols in the North Atlantic and Antarctic. The defence sources said that the protection of the deterrent would have to be left in the hands of the Royal Navy, using hunter-killer, nuclear-powered submarines.

The decision on the Nimrod Mark 2s and their replacements will have a considerable impact on the personnel at RAF Kinloss. There are currently 1,600 RAF staff based there, and a proportion of them — especially the engineers — will be displaced to other bases to work on different aircraft. RAF sources said that there were no plans to make any Kinloss staff redundant..............

He also said in the Commons that the maritime patrol commitment would be catered for by RN Merlin, (To a degree but not over a similar search area or range surely) and C130 Hercules. Do we have a herc with a Mad boom? or is 'Snoopy' being reintroduced with a new boom sticking out the front?? Do hercs even have a 'lookout window': I hasten to add the stutter and tone of his voice gave the body language akin to being caught in public with his trousers around his ankles.

No, but they have 2 sizeable para doors at the rear in which observer seats can be fixed. Whilst not trying to compare capabilities here, Albert has been doing MRR down in MPA for years.

Good job we've lots sitting around doing nothing then...:ugh:

So no SAR cover for long range Sea King rescue flights then.

Not just sad to see them go but surely the withdrawl could have been delayed until the new ac were ops ready

When will that be exactly???

This is only the start and those who want to lament the rapid loss of, shall we say, 'less now focused capabilities', will be very busy posting early next year!!

The way the Nimrod has been demonised in the press, I'd guess everyone will be cheering its demise, and ignoring the capability "holiday" (gaping hole?) that will be left until the MRA4 gets declared operational. It seems as a layperson to be a rather important capability to just get rid of.

How will Long range SAR, transatlantic FJ detachments, on-scene command / control / comms, etc be carried out?

Exactly what is the status of the MRA4 now? It has gone quite quiet on that front on here?

Not since WW2 will the UK have had such an 'Air gap' on the North Atlantic.

All AAR trails across the pond used to have the security of Nimrod SAR support. When multiple waves were trailed, the Nimrod would launch ahead of the first and land after the last, maximising its on-scene potential, should the worst ever happen. In later years, I understand that the Nimrod was kept at a high readiness state at Kinloss, rather than actually launching.

But now to have not even that luxury seems a totally retrograde step.

Can such an absurd decision be reversed / delayed?

For me it's not just SAR, it's anti-submarine, MRR, Fisheries protection, Oil Rig protection, Int gathering, tri-service co-ordination, force projection............

It's the absolute requirement as we are a maritime nation. WW2 showed that air gap in the North Atlantic is tantamount to cutting your own throat........

Amazed it is even being talked about - let alone done !!

Crazy, Crazy, Crazy - but why am I not suprised.

Arc

I think I read on BBC that the MRA4 is to be delayed until 2012?

Sad to see the MR2 go on two counts. One, I did 7 years at Kinloss on two tours and two, being a Radio Op on the Rigs now means that it is one less asset should we have a drama. I was always proud when I would hear a Nimrod on VHF 16, and it was always reassuring to know that, alongside the RAF, RN and Coastguard Helo's, they were available in the event of a drama. Losing one panel of that umbrella does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling.

Delaying the MRA4! It's already 10 years late. Remember when it was Nimrod 2000?

Does this include 51 Sqns cabs too? If not, why not move the R1's to ISK and ease the crush at EGXW?

Nobody will ever use that kind of designation again....

In very broad terms we will lose a major ISTAR asset (search, find, fix and in some cases destroy) its capability can not be replaced by any other current asset. The idea that 10 or more Squadrons of FJ is needed in the current force structure is ridiculous and may cause much more harm to our future relevance.
MPA has always been considered the Cinderella of the RAF and the FJ centric hierarchy have never allowed the MR2 to reach it's potential, left unchecked I'm sure they wouldn't be to bothered about the MRA 4 either.
Bring on the SDR, hopefully homeland defence will be top of the list and the politicians might see what an error they have made! :ugh:

Does anyone have a good reason why the RAF have done this? Why would the RAF recommend withdrawing the MR2's ? any ideas?

No idea except my FJ conspiracy one.
We are losing a very real capability, available right now 365 days a year, not some pointy things which don't do weekends or nights and need to go to Vegas etc, to work up for Ops.

The RAF must have been in a pants position.

After all, which essential bit do you give up?
Is chopping the Nimrods better than losing another squadron or two of Tornado's?
The Harrier has been all but put down.
They cannot and, I doubt, would not chop SH or AT.

So - what else is left?
Perhaps a braver choice would have been to keep the myriad capabilities which the Nimrod provides at the expense of...
AD?
CAS?

I'm sure the the Gaywacs fleet will volunteer to pick up all the maritime tasking (as long as it's not at the weekend!).

A perfect demonstration of how far up their own backside those at the top of the RAF chain are.

There is no logical answer to the question, "Why?". In an attempt to take a balanced view of things as they stand............

1. Helicopters and AT are a massive priority, as the conflict that we are currently engaged in has little need for a large FJ presence and more for combat support.

2. The MR2 provides much more than one of the most capable ASW platforms in the world and it's capability 'capping' has far greater reach than most appreciate (including those in the Main Building, it would seem). The end result of this gap could be as small (?) as the inability to fix and assist a vessel in distress that is out of range of UK SAR(H), or as large as the compromise of the nation's nuclear deterrent.

3. Whilst the introduction of a new and capable FJ fleet is important to the defence of the UK, it is NOT the priority at this time, nor is it likely to be in the next 2/3 years.

It leaves only one question of events in the MoD........

......has the Christmas party season started already?

My view is it's a cynical ploy to get rid of our ASW all together. If you can have a "holiday" why not save shed loads of money and do away with it all together?

What will happen to all the surplus Air Eng's now then?

TG

So what are 150-200 AEops going to do? I wonder how many of them were/are ALMs in disguise...........? I think the CH47 force are looking for volunteers:ok:

Green Flash,

What crush at 'W'? I was there last week and it's a ghost town!

Metman.That’s a fair observation. It certainly meets the MoD contribution to;

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Defence Policy and Business | MOD announces new Air Safety Authority

That may well be true but not much help if you’ve just bought them, at the time they were still available.

Sadly, you're right.

Anyone could be forgiven that a little procurement foresight was needed. Oh, well. When do I collect my ration book and gas mask? That's the next event in the pattern, isn't it? The Battle of Britain mentality leaps forth once more and the non-fighter theatres are dismissed easily. Typical bloody RAF.

Don't be surprised to see Uncle Lockheed riding to the rescue, i.e. a quick dust-down, a flash over paint job and there is an instant squadron of one careful owner P-3s.
Somebody in the ministry is praised to high heaven, (have another CBE), for saving the day and quietly trousers a bag of gold and all is well.
Long live defence cuts and savings

I'm not sure about a bag of gold in the future, but I'd like to bet that someone's creeping down a corridor with 30 pieces of silver in their pocket today.

Arc, Fisheries protection - Scottish fisheries agency. Or english fisheries. Oil rigs, Maritime and Coastguard Agency assetts. I refer to various off shore incidents and the Kuznetsov incident of valentines day this year which was ably responded to by an MCA 404 from coventry masquerading as an IAAC CASA for political reasons. Both crew members of which are now working for other 'agencies' having been made redundant.

James - just exactly where were you going to magic up these P3s from?:suspect:

Gentlemen,
this is entirely the wrong attitude to take, don't view the 'gapping' of MR2/4 (or MR2/Nimrod 2028 as it'll eventually be known) in this pessimistic vein - look for the opportunities this affords:

What better time could you find for running vast quantities of cocaine into the country? No MPAs, the RN reduced to a fisheries protcetion vessel, 4 pedaloes and HMS Victory, and the Army are both away in Afghanistan. I'm in for a fiver, how about we all club together for a massive drugs haul during the capability gap? Hmm?

Dave "Carlos" B

The US Navy Boeing P-8 Poseidon is coming along nicely....perhaps that will wind up replacing the Nimrod some day.

First Navy Test Pilot Flies P-8A Poseidon - Southern Maryland News, Charles County, Calvert County and St. Mary's County News

Interesting point, Gorilla makes. If the RN have assured ministers that they can take care of any threat to the integrity of our BM capability using ships, subs and Merlin... and if they guarantee that they will cope adequately with any maritime terrorist threat to the UK or react to drug smugglers at short notice etc, ... and if we have no major life threatening SAR event (Piper Alpha) over the next 2 years that could have been lessened by Nimrod cover - will the Treasury see it as justification to cut MPA altogether? There won't be a capability gap if other assets (on paper) can take on the job and nothing actually happens to put them to the test. I'm sure the Dutch never envisioned losing the P3 force 10 years ago...

RIP Nimrod......Had fun flying on you and wish all my Kipper Fleet mates all the best in the future....Agree with all thoughts about how you will cover the gap when it goes.......DaveJB dont wind them up too much and watch out for the black Omega's outside!!!!!! Good luck .......Losing your jobs could well be a direct result of the loss of the A/C in Afganistan and the furore that followed that was always on the cards but to come as quick as this and without the MR4 is wrong in my opinion.
Enjoy the rest guys.

SASless - The P8 discussion has had the backside well and truly kicked out of it in the past, and the incumbent USN MPA is not likely to be as capable as the MRA4. If for no other reason than a twin-engined aircraft will offer up some serious low-level performance questions, in the event of single engine failure. A quick search using the facility at the top of the page will allow you to trawl through the arguments for and against.

Party Animal - You can't even hope to compare the UK's maritime commitment to that undertaken by the Dutch. I have no doubt that we will make do during the gapped period, but the capability will be missed. What the fleet really needs is the feedback, from the organisations that would normally have a service provided by the Nimrod MPA, to report what effects and to what extent the lack of support is having.

Bob Ainsworth & the one eyed jock maniac should be f***** sideways with an A sized sonobuoy.

Spock

Nimrods '72-'92

Beagle - it's ok we have some of those nice new 406 beacons too so we can be located in the middle of the atlantic, prior to a Herc throwing a dinghy at us prior to waiting 4 days for a military ship to pick us up as we don't want to get kidnapped by a merchant vessel. We do all have working PELS beacons don't we......?
Absolutely criminal some of the capabilities lost yesterday.

What makes me angry is the fact that there is a simple solution to the problem.

Scrap MRA4
Scrap A400M
Scrap Sentry
Close Waddo
Close Kinloss

With Billions saved buy 25 more Hercs.
No need for new SOP's, OCU, OEU etc etc etc because it all already exists!!

Open new Hercules MR Sqn and use the nimrod guys experience to produce a viable Herc MR platform.

Easy really.... Lots of jobs for everyone!

Reading through all these threads it appears that most seem to be thinking along the same lines. I must admit I was not surprised about what occurred yesterday and what surprised me was Kinloss staying open, however, the writing does appear to be on the wall good and proper. Only time will tell at just how much the lack of LRMPA will affect the various agencies and it'll probably take something major to kick off/occurr to save the MRA4 from the chop.

Getting our SH fleet 22 new chinooks is fantastic but surely the fact that we won't get the benefit of these until 2013(10 of them) underlines just how short-sighted and ridiculous this decision appears?

Something tells me that something major does loom over the horizon and with our current state I dread that day. History all over again.

To those asking why the Nimrod's gone, I think you're affording the decision-makers with a little bit too much intelligence if you think there was any reasoning behind its death in terms of capabilities lost.

In fact, I imagine that the MR2 was offered up because it was going to be gone anyway within a few years. They've just grabbed at an OSD and gone "yes, we can move that forward," not thought about it.

F84 (AKA Spock)

Since you took the last MK1 to victory in the AW, would it not be not more appropriate (and more satisfying) to do the insertion with a MK1C Active?