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MR2 farewell thrash?
Anyone know of plans for a farewell party for the MR2?
Looking for an excuse for a good p*ss-up! Cheers rich |
Mr2 Demise
Hanger Party On The 31st Mar.
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MRA4 - hope yet?
The Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton had the opportunity to fly on the first production Nimrod MRA4 aircraft on a recent visit to Warton. During a very successful 90 mins flight CAS saw each element of the mission system in action and even experienced first-hand, the agile handling of the aircraft from the flight deck.
On landing, CAS said: "It was a great flight and very, very useful for me to understand precisely what has been done to develop the capability and to make the aeroplane basically a weapon system of choice for the role we’re going to do. It does seem that actually the aeroplane is now ready to go into operational service, both from the point of view of the aircrew up the front and also the operators in the rear part. They understand the systems, the systems are now working and therefore the quality of what we’re going to get. Once we’ve got our own people properly trained it should be really good." |
mra4eng;
Any reason why the CAS was flying from Warton (See my posting #153)? Where is the farewell to the Mk2 taking place Kinloss or Waddington? DV |
DV
Why would you think that the farewell to the MR2 would take place at Waddington? There will be a crew on RS120 (2hr standby) for SAR/Ops till 2359 on 31 Mar 10 at Kinloss! I believe that the landing of the last planned sortie - other than post OSD disposals - will kick off the hangar bash. Duncs:ok: |
DV,
Re your post 153, the MRA4 hasn't 'gone' to Warton - that's where it is built (or at least completed AFAIK!). I don't think that any will come direct from Woodford. The Nimrod MRA4 OCU is at Kinloss and currently converting aircrew. Duncs:ok: |
Woodford has the producion line for MK4s; Warton has the training facilities and most of the test flying programme.
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Woodford also now has a potential grave yard for the Prototype MRA.4s
see here Woodford 07/03 but at least the second production airframe has actually flown! and see here Nimrod at Manchester 08/03 V1 |
With regards to where the initial training is to be carried out, please read the following article. It seems that as yet we do not have a Release to Service.
Nimrod MRA4 Declared 'Ready to Train' - BAE Systems DV |
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MR2 out of service early, political or financial, you decide. I know which one I would go for.
sometimes you don't know what you've lost till it's gone as is safer now than ever. Still waiting on Mr Brown or Ainsworth to visit. |
I for one wanted to hear that the MR2 had been made safe, then expected (naively) that it would remain in service while the MR4 came online, much as we transitioned from MR1 to MR2 (also while we were at war, funny old thing, innit?)
I would say that in all fairness that was probably the intention, then as more and more dirty washing was aired, particularly following the Haddon-Cave report, it became obvious that the money being spent was never going to result in a whiter than white MR2, so the plug was pulled. I don't really see how anyone in the chain of command, or more appropriately the chain of decision, could be expected post coroner and pre H-C to realise that the MR2 would prove to be beyond redemption, so fixing it (provided it seemed to be economically viable versus operational requirements) made sense...then H-C showed that the required fix would be astronomically expensive and take so long that MR4 would be online anyway. To my mind this article was full of 20:20 hindsight, and is unfair... would everyone REALLY have been happy if MR2 had been withdrawn from service immediately after that dreadful day and the capability gap had been even longer? Canning MR2 was, overall, a political decision I am sure - but economically it made a good deal of sense too. You really shouldn't castigate people for not making major decisions at the instant that becomes apparent only in hindsight 2 years down the line. 16 million quid, by the way, is probably what the Ministry of Silly Walks spends on paper clips every quarter.... the bankers cost us BILLIONS, a sense of scale might not go amiss. Dave (I do agree with the P&J caption, I too am beginning to regard the subject of the photo attached to that article as 'dreadful') |
davejb;
What technical defects were uncovered by H-C that were not clear at the time of the inquest? DV |
Your contention then is that the Nimrod was beyond fixing, and therefore the initial decision to fix it so that operational capability could be restored was obviously flawed from the start, and that this was therefore a foolish decision, presumably?
I don't think, to be honest, you'll find that everyone agrees with that opinion. |
davejb;
You have not answered my question. DV |
Because your question is founded on what I consider to be a false premise...similar to questions about whether one still beats ones wife.
New technical info from H-C, no, although I would say that until H-C the true scale of how much needed fixing was not clear, if that is in fact the case post H-C. I believe that there was a desire to provide two paths to safe operation of the MR2 post crash - (1) Identification and rectification of those items that posed a significant threat to the aircraft's ability to operate safely, and (2) changes in the way the aircraft was operated - eg cessation of AAR. Unfortunately the PR side of the equation was ignored, the RAF/MoD did not understand that even getting 1 and 2 right would not be enough, because they had lost the confidence of the public who would not accept that perhaps they had in fact now made the aircraft safe. Considering the aircraft's contribution in a number of roles over the decades I consider it a shame that it was seen to be simpler to retire the aircraft early and accept the capability gap. |
Jimmy Jones can 'suspect' all he wants. Maybe one day he will actually say something to the press that he 'knows for a fact' instead of making himself look silly to those who do know.:=
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Well said Andgo.
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davejb;
The defective items (hot air ducting) were known about in June 2005; 33 sections were identified as being "life expired and required replacement" by BAe Systems following the XV227 incident. Had the replacement programme been initiated then perhaps the Nimrod fleet could have been saved, along with 14 lives. The BOI appear to have turned a blind eye to the report, as they fail to mention it in their report, along with a recommendation to replace hydraulic pipe couplings. DV |
...or isolation of the SCP. My point being that changes in the way the aircraft was operated would appear to have removed the danger, but the furore prevented that from being considered an adequate response. I'm not arguing that post 227 the right thing was done, but neither am I convinced that the correct thing has been done in the past couple of years.
MR2 is currently still flying, that it will shortly stop doing that is a PR/Political decision I suspect. |
PA4 at Warton, PA5 at Scumchester
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davejb;
I am afraid it was just one thing after another, no sooner was one fault mitigated another came to light. AAR was "on" and "off" several times with ever decreasing fuel loads; SCP and cross feed systems were isolated only to find that shut off valves were leaking and 34 had to be changed. Finally store release devices failed because the bomb bay heating system has been switched off since Sept 2006. And the hits just keep coming. DV |
Can we not let it go now?:ugh:
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BBC News - Nimrod withdrawal 'puts lives at risk'
And before you ask it wasn't me who contacted them, but be interesting to hear the MoD response. |
It wisnae me, either!
I have just read the P&J link - I had previously read the article in the paper. I concur with the picture's title - Jimmy Jones: 'dreadful'. Duncs:ok: |
wasted £££££
I concur with Dundee & Jimmy Jones;
what a sad tale, wasted ££££££, no suitable (?) a/c until 2012 & the 'issues' leading up to the withdrawal- deepest respects to the families & friends of the incident a/c lost. |
As a long time observer of the forums, I have enjoyed virtually everything that has been said. Over the years, the various Nimrod threads have been informative (some being downright funny); they have highlighted numerous shortcomings (which I suspect can be applied to other fleets) and have brought the maritime community together following the tragic loss of 230. This loss and the subsequent inquiries have highlighted numerous processes within the MoD/RAF that have either failed or have had a 'blind-eye' turned. Some of the recent comments in threads have riled me. I am glad we have free speech, but we always seem to hear from those who shout loudest with the least amount of knowledge. The loss of our friends and colleagues and the subsequent political embarrassment have caused (in many eyes) the name Nimrod to become a dirty word. It is now synonymous with bad news. (I understand that at one stage it was even contemplated changing the name of the MRA4.) And yet for the many of us who have spent many hours training, flying on Ops, flying on SAR and participating in Exercises in all corners of the world, being tarnished in this is way is just plain wrong. It saddens me greatly. The powers above decided late last year that the easiest way to cleanse the system was to withdraw her from service early, accept a capability gap and try and convince people that the RAF and RN had other assets that could cover the shortfall until the MRA4 arrived. Only time will tell whether this is successful or not. As a result of the inquiries, it became necessary to fix the aircraft so that she could continue to provide the service for which she is known. Unfortunately, due to the nature of many of our tasks, Joe Public does not know most of what we do, but these tasks are important both nationally and internationally. It is only now, within hours of the last flight, that some of these issues are being highlighted. The Scottish press have just highlighted this with the comments of a ‘Senior Officer’ (Post 185). The Top Cover for Rescue 169 is an example of what the Nimrod does - locating vessels for other SAR assets working at the limits of their range, so that the casualty can be recovered to hospital as soon as possible. Quite rightly, the rescue was reported and yet someone within the MoD walls embargoed any reference to the Nimrod. That dirty word again. It would be embarrassing for the decision makers to have headlines highlighting the work of the Nimrod, an aircraft that will be soon withdrawn from service for (in my view) the flimsiest of reasons and within an obscenely short timeframe. I feel sure that our colleagues in the yellow helicopters were pleased that the money had been spent on the Nimrods, thus knowing that there was someone else watching out for them on those long over water transits. Unfortunately I cannot be there to celebrate the life of the Nimrod MR1/MR2 but wish everyone there a good time. It has not always been a bed of roses, but everyone (all at Kinloss, St Mawgan and Luqa) have given 100%, supporting the aircraft, earning the reputation that she richly deserves. Long may it continue with the MRA4. OL8 |
Farewell Mighty Hunter
I've just watched the early Sky news item on today's final Nimrod flight with a tear in my eye & a lump in my throat. It has brought back so many memories of good times, great mates, challenging tasks & wonderful places visited. Above all the unforgettable smell of the mixture of smoking jez paper, honkers stew & hydraulic fluid.
Good luck to you all at EGQK today. My heart & thoughts will be with you all & particularly with the 'Mighty Hunter'. Spock |
spoken like the gentleman you were and still are Spock. You introduced me to the Maritime world and I appreciated what you did for me in the time I knew you,,,,,,,great guys great crews and above all a great aircraft to fly in. enjoy the rest guys you deserve it.
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Professional To The Last
I had cause to contact Kinloss ops this Tuesday to discuss the contents of a planned sortie. Even with just a few days left to go the folk there were eager to help, suggested alternatives, and offered support. More than this they continued to remain upbeat whilst having the rug pulled from under them.
Until the new wonderjet appears thanks to all at ISK, see you in 2012. Have a good watch.:D |
Fergineer,
Thanks for the thoughts, but there is not much rest to be had: rest assured that the citizens of Forres will have to work on their own gardens! We will be taking advantage of all available opportunities to ensure that the MRA4 enters Service with the aircrew and groundcrew champing at the bit and as well prepared as we (they) possibly could be ensure that the new jet provides as much capability as possible in as short a time as possible. We might have a break this evening, though:E Duncs:ok: |
sky news
check out sky news' coverage.
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We might have a break this evening, though |
By the way Duncs, are you a Northern Scot or a Southern Scot?;)
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SAR Cover
So how do we provide SAR top cover from midnight, tonight? Was consideration ever given to keeping, say six Nimrods?
DV |
How many times do we have to answer the "How do we cover SAR" question....
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As someone who 'cut my teeth' in the maritime world I'd just like to add my thanks to all at ISK for past camaradarie and help, and my sorrow at seeing the expertise left to wither on the vine until the arrival of the mythical beast that is MRA 4. :ok:
As a 'baby' maritime Shack pilot I attended the Coastal Command disbandment at St Mawgan, and marvelled at the display of the (yet to be delivered) Nimrod by the BAe test pilot - and then again at the less than impressive first one to arrive at Changi, although watching the fire tenders chase it down the runway was mildly amusing. On both MR and AEW SAR was always a high priority, and I well remember providing top cover for everything from Whirlwinds (at up to 90 miles from the coast - who remembers the 'Amberley') to Sea Kings (considerably further). I then went rotary myself, and have been extremely grateful to see the Nimrod above when many miles out which has then been able to talk me on to the casualty without a protracted search, as well as the feeling of security top cover gives you (why is it everything sounds like it's about to fail or laboured as soon as you coast out). I know this has been done to death throughout this thread, but I just hope that we don't have reason to regret the passing of the mighty hunter in all the areas it has been operating. I will raise a glass tonight to all in maritime both past and present. :sad: PS - Who is covering SAR within the UK area of responsibilty as of midnight? |
To the Future
Folks,
A very sad day, and I hope all have a hooley to remember tonight - wish I was there. Had a couple of drams downtown Darwin tonight!! Here's to the future, and the capability that the present crews will take forward; we are, and will continue to be, the best there is. From Down Under............:ok: |
Raised a glass tonight
All the very best to everyone at Kinloss. I left the RAF last year and would have loved to have been able to get back to the UK for the final farewell.
Sorry to see the Nimrod go, was a great aircraft to fly on and I was lucky to work with some great people. Regards and good luck for the MRA4. Last thought... Contact in Hidar 66, Type 6 Sierra, Hdg 266 6kts or Six speaker surround stereo,,,,trying saying them with a lisp!!;) |
Sorry, but...
So how do we provide SAR top cover from midnight, tonight? Was consideration ever given to keeping, say six Nimrods? A great pity that the weather has done what it has today - not that the SAR crew won't get airborne if needed between now and midnight, they'll land anywhere from Inveness to Lajes if need be, as has been proved time and time again. It has scuppered the odd flypast, which is unfortunate. An excellent aircraft that I spent my whole career on, wet you-know-what sorties being the worst (sorry, but chasing certain classes was less than inspiring...I always liked the huge floating magnets tethered to helium filled balloons idea personally). The best sorties - (1) any detachment outbound, especially the ones that started with 'keep your eyes on my bag Sgt' - 'Captain port beam, just lost visual on your bags...'. (2) Any det going somewhere unusual (3) JMC etc... any sorties that really made use of radar and ESM <g> (4) A dry cat ride for Glenn (Sqn Ldr last I saw, about 1990, but then a mere 4th dry)... Al Masson turns to me and says 'are you always so relaxed calling a riser? Do you get so many of them you think it's a run of the mill occurrence?' - (or words to that effect)... Me: 'yeah, pretty much'. So I guess '4' is 'any trip with Al Bone', on the grounds that most of my career happened in my first 4 years on a squadron, and here's a nod to Dave Jenkins (AEO, RIP also I believe, unfortunately) who kept me almost on the straight and narrow at the time. I used to like stage 2 if the wetties gave the drymen a go too.... that stupid Playstation by the Nav's sunblind messed that up of course.... I (personally) also liked the AEO's I flew with - they put up with a lot more from me than vice versa, I also had a lot of good Nav's... and pilots... there's a trend developing here.... I left because although I liked the people, I didn't like the management. Dave |
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