Should officers spend compulsory time in the ranks?
 

Thought I would ask you Officer types of pprune if you think that junior officers ought to spend time in the ranks.

After 14 years of service, I have worked for three or four officers younger than myself. I have had very little trouble with this, however they have such little experience, that they have to ask questions all the time.

They build their experience by "using" their SNCO's and JNCO's knowledge.

If they were to spend a couple of years as a JNCO, or at least in a JNCO post, this would help them see what it is really like on the shop floor.

I feel it would also help the way that they are perceived by junior ranks across the board.

I have found that the best officers I have worked for have come from the ranks.

Officers.

Able to tell you the atomic density of a jar of jam, couldnt tell you how to get the lid off.

It works in the format we currently have. Lets not fix something that isnt broken.

MGD

I'm both flattered and offended!!:ok:

Hope all is well

Well they would at least learn how to wear a beret so they don't look like a helo pad on a lighthouse.
:)

Agree with the beret problem - why can't they be taught the art of beret-wearing?

As for serving in the ranks, you then spend 6-9 months training someone to do a job for 15-18 months that they'll never do again, and lots of good potential officers would not join without a confirmed place on IOT, so you can't make everyone join in the ranks and only select for commissioning once they've done a couple of years.

Bring back five years as officer cadets, like my father had. Went to Dartmouth at 13, passed out into fleet training at 18, by which time he'd had a very good academic training, and learned an immense amount of naval knowledge, too. By the time he was 18 he could solder, weld, braze, rivet, and also strip and rebuild engines, weapons and basic radio kit. He was a seaman officer....

Donaldo...

Nice to see you trolling here now...

Did you get bored here Should officers spend compulsory time in the ranks? - E-Goat :: The Totally Unofficial Royal Air Force Rumour Network forums

I believe the RNoAF have this requirement. We also came upon an elderly gent in VASF at Lista. He had had time promotion in that one job, I believe he was a Lt Col.

Now in the RAF, to put all JO into airmen billets to JNCO rank would displace many airmen from getting promotion. As Cpls have rather more experience than even a new flt lt, just how long would you propose that officers serve before promotion?

Pretty clearly the OP was refering to Logs and HR rather than aircrew or ops support as they rarely get close enough to airmen.

The new officer is not expected to be as proficient in the trade as the SNCO but a good one will learn quickly from that SNCO.

Many years ago it was the norm for crusty SNCOs to help and mentor plt off and fg off but to expect a flt lt to know which way was up. Since many flt lt were straight out of training this was quite difficult for the new JEngO.

No no no no no no no no.

No,
the good guys will pick it up from SNCOs as they progress, the idiots won't get the idea if they spend 300 years as an SAC.

This really hurts, but I agree with MGD!

An interesting concept, but please do not dilute the quality of the other ranks by doing this.

So if you have guys going into the ranks who know that in xx months they are off to IOT, some will try hard to learn, some will do the minimum, and some will be complete pillocks telling everyone they are off to IOT soon. Not so great for morale and teamwork.

Leave it well alone. It's not that broken.

I wish I'd spent 3 years in the ranks - the reason being I was commissioned 2 weeks before my 18th birthday and none of my service from then till my 21st birthday counts as pensionable service. If I had been in the ranks all service from 18 would have counted. I have never seen the justice in that, but that's the way it is.

MARINE CORPS MUSTANG ASSOCIATION

Quote:

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What is a Marine Mustang?

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The USMC has a long tradition of Mustang officers... and a large percentage of its Commandants were former enlisted.

Mate, you reckon?

I joined at 16 as a Junior Leader and when I traded up to Officer class a few years back I was told my pension now started at 21!!
So I have been robbed of 5 years pensionable service -- unless of course I went onto the new scheme where it would be backdated to my 16th B-Day - but there is no chance of that....

So my question is, why am I being robbed of 5 years?? It's almost a punishment for 'upgrading' in life ???

Sounds more like a schoolboy error to me :E

In 1985,at TTTE, I was crewed up with an IAF Tente Colonello who was fragged to go to back to his old Sqn as OC. 22 years previously he had been a Cpl F104 pilot on the same sqn and had gone through the ranks until his final posting. Unfotunatley he failed his IRT in the sim due to language problems.

3P:ok:

Grimweasel,

I left before the debacle called JPA arrived so actually had humans to sort things out. I believe that 50% of Airman service post 18 till Commissioning date counts towards your pension. May be worth asking The Forces Pension Society as they are an excellent resource.

Cheers

Cpl F104 pilot.............?
Really???:eek:

No way you would get sensible folk to fly those feckin things :E

Grimweasel
 

Hi Grimweasel - didnt know that your airman's service was wiped out for pension purposes once you were commissioned - but the point is had you stayed in the ranks those extra years would have counted. So we've both been robbed - you more than me but there seems no moral justification for it. What's this new scheme - too late for us but does it right this wrong?

How have you been robbed as you both knew the terms of service you were signing on for :confused:

True in a technical sense, but how many 17 year olds are going to enquire about pensions when all they are really interested in is getting their mitts on a nice shiny aeroplane and flying it at the queen's expense. I know if you can't take a joke ..... etc etc, but why is this joke only played on officers?

Got to go with the 'no' crowd. Future rodneys would disrupt the ranks and simply spread the problem wider and for longer. The solution isn't to improve their knowledge so much as to get better at selecting them - just before I left 'breathing' seemed to be one of the few qualifications. Quality control is the key, and there'll always be a supply of talent to pick from - bums on seats motivates nobody.

Having done both, I don't think pre-requisite airman service is really a good idea. I got enough hassle for being a mech-tech let alone being a future guaranteed officer. I learned a lot from the ranks and it has certainly helped me in the commissioned world. There are a few major companies that insist their graduate programs spend time on the shop floor; Aldi's management training scheme for one (I'm sure someone will correct me). Believe it or not, the Air Force actually needs Ox-Bridge graduates for higher up the food chain. It may take some time for them to learn the job, but isn't that one of the roles of the FS and WO - mentoring Junior Officers?

I had two ex WW2 NCO pilots as CO's, both had been made officers after the war and eventually obtained one star rank on retirement. Watched for a little while, a newly made up Flying Officer giving his vast knowledge, to our WO engineer leader who was trying to maintain his composure, whilst this prate rambled on. Eventually the CO who had come down to Captain the airplane, had seen enough and from his mouth came the truth. Dear Flying Officer, you may out rank this man, but you have not yet learnt that he has forgotten more than you will ever learn, you must resign yourself to the fact that you can never gain his level of knowledge and experience and then you will be some use to me.

Later in the flight, he spoke to him again, I am going to show you how you need to know your men and your own limitaions. With that he pulled the co pilot out, and put the WO engineer in his seat and said it is all yours. With that the WO flew the aircraft to top of desent by hand, and then took it down to about circuit height where the boss took over.

As we were taxing in, they changed seats again, and the boss made one more statement. See our engineers spend so much time in the simulator, that I have seen three engineers perform a full session with all problems, without any problems at all.

So let us not kid our selves, officers perform an important leadership roll, but any air force is really run by the NCO's, they are the ones who make things happen.

Regards

Col

Having served as an airman for ten years and an officer for 15, I think the answer to the question is a definite "no!" There would be absolutely no benefit to a potential junior officer.

I also feel I had an advantage in my transition [I was never an NCO], in that my ideas on what would make me a good officer [Sqn Ldr Rtd], was that I'd had no pre-conditioning as a SNCO, many of whom continue to think in that rank long after commissioning. I think I also had the benefit, as an airman, of working with some super officers, almost all aircrew types. Some of the other branch representatives never lit my fire, and I recall one Flt Lt OC my section whom I never met in two years!

I'm biased, of course, but I think I was a damn fine officer, and have the paperwork to prove it, because I already had the determination, attitude and integrity to "do it once, do it right". I don't think that always happens with some commissioned NCOs, because that's what some of them continue to be!

I was selected by the way, I never applied for a commission, and I had to convinced by a Gp Capt GD[P] that I was the right man!

Time in the ranks
 

Samuel, what were you doing for 10 years as an airman who never got promoted? The reality is there are fine Officers who were "never in the ranks", a term which I think is quaint. There are also many fine Officers who came from the ranks. Likewise, many non-Commissioned members are equally fine and contribute just as much as many Officers, more than some no doubt. Having been a serviceman for over 23 years and leaving as a Warrant Officer I think I can make a pretty good assessment of the relative merits of others. The military will not, indeed cannot, operate without the requisite number of all ranks and musterings. The "them and us" attitude held by too many does little for the good of the services. On another point, I did not know the RAF guys flew around in their aircraft "at the Queens expense". (Tankertrashnav) I always thought the taxpayers funded the armed services.

Samuel made a good post. Now for tuppence.

There are many airmen who fail becaus eof 'airmen tendencies' (don't ask).

There are many whose wives cannot handle the transition to the officers' mess.

As Samuel said, some SNCO (and WO) cannot change their mindset from non-commission to commission.

In the context of the original question though we are not talking of airmen going for a commission - the present system, but of would be officers serving as airmen for a tour or so perhaps before getting a commission.

This might work for a 17 year old but not for a graduate. A graduate at 24 on entry and 28 on a sqn cannot afford an additional 2-3 years as an airmen because that would both delay his professional training and aptitude fade would be well established.

An officer at IOT spends some 8 months as an 'airman' but isolated at the college of knowledge. It is up to his SNCO instructors to ensure that he has a thorough understanding of his position in the world. It follows that the NCO instructor role - Regt and PEd usually - is vital in their initial training.

"Airman tendencies" & "unable to handle the transition"
 

Pontius Navigator. Rarely have I seen such blatant "class distinction" written. Your condescending remarks are one of the very reasons a number of potential Officers elect to stay put "in the NCO ranks". Despite your (don't ask) I would like you to explain exactly what your comment infers. Likewise, please expand on your comment regarding wives not being able to handle the transition to the Officers' Mess. Surely, you must be joking. What the hell has an Officers wife got to do with the Officers Mess? It would seem to me that your comment infers that some Officers may be "embarrassed" by having their spouse accompany them to the Mess simply because she was previously a NCO's wife. Unbelievable waffle.

I have 2 best mates in the air force and they are superb officers., one went in direct entry IOT as a graduate while the other one joined as an airman. Near 10 yrs later the latter, went through OASC and graduated from IOT and did well through the course and doing well for himself in his branch.

Not sure if it makes any difference though bit of me agrees that an agreed period of time in the non commissioned ranks can't hurt.

Though there is the time issue of those going for pilot or weapons operator but then its been proved that there have been junior non commissioned ranks who spent several years before going through a commissioning course, then pilots course whether its been the RAF, AAC, FAA, USAF, USN, USMC, USA.

If I am correct, in the USA within the various academies and even the ROTC program, arn't the cadets hold nco ranks during the years leading up to their commission? I know they are cadet assigned ranks but don't they denote some form of increased responsibility as the years go by?

I suppose like with everywhere else, there's pro's and cons of this

In the RAAF, there are two types of ex-airmen officers: awesome and awful... very little ground in between. Being an officer takes all types, but commissioning from the ranks is not the solution to all of Defence's problems. Let's just focus on the key skill sets that enables somebody to lead and also, you don't have to get your hands dirty to appreciate what's involved.

Airmen tendencies ?
 

Pontius Navigator,

What can I say, at last some entertainment.... Please, don't stop, your foot is nearly all the way in.... what exactly are; "airmen tendencies" ?

Squawk

Squawk, I don't know but I do know that that phrase is used at OASC.

I have replied to Old Fella by PM.

I leave it to others to comment and explain.

"Airmen tendencies"
 

Can anyone elaborate? There might be a few airmen (or even airmen aircrew) out there who are just about ready to go to OASC who could do with some advice.

Such advice could help them make sure they don't soil the carpet at OASC!

Squawk

The ranks need workers, not wankers. :ok:

When I was in Aden we had a lot of pongoes on base (Khormaksar). A chum on 43 showed a young army officer acquaintance over one of the squadron's Hunters. After a while the puzzled lad asked "Very nice, but where does the competent NCO sit?"

And not just Regt and PEd. As one recalls it is Appendix 22 to QRs which lists the duties of various NCO ranks. For WOs this includes something along the lines of 'Training junior officers'.

Possibly because unlike 17 yr old Officer Cadets, the rest of the Airforce at that age have been more savvy as to what is happening to their pensions and have in the past stood up to it and not taken it bent over a table from the rear, so to speak.

lars, I was refering specifically to the instructor SNCOs at IOT.