Not too many chooks in your chook house judging by the massive (yawn) reaction you got in here John, maybe you should go fishing elsewhere....

So it is true then? Absolutely nothing to justify the taxpayer expense of the expensive white elephants?

Meanwhile, I am not sorry to see them put out the back of the hangar.

They were justified by having control of New Zealand skies. A nation that doesn't possess air superiority in its own skies cannot control its coastline either. Give up defending your skies and the surrounding sea and its just a matter of time before your natural resources are plundered by foreign interests while New Zealand looks on helplessly.

Nothing new. Look what happened to the Maoris... :rolleyes:

In which case the money would have been better spent on the P3s and the navy.

JOHN HILL, by your rationale you should not have car or house insurance until your house has burnt down or your car is nicked?
At least open your eyes to the real world.

No, by my rationale I lock my house when I leave, I lock my car when I leave but I do not lay minefields in the lawn and I do not hire Blackwater to guard my car. It is all about resources appropriate to the threat.

Mr Hill, you are obviously blissfully underinformed about the threat. And this is not the place, nor do I have the time to explain.

Thank you for your concern L J R.

Do they make a ship or P-3 as fast as a Skyhawk? Maybe a nation should aim to be able to control it's own airspace?

There is plenty of argument for and against a fast jet capability for NZ.
The point is, if this part of the world ever becomes a hotspot (It easily could, due to hunger for dwindling resouces) NZ will be defenceless. It will take years to rebuild the capability and untill then NZ will not be able to deny an aggressor access to its EEZ.

Feeling's of pleasure:
 

John Hill: I happen to agree with you.
Trojan 1981: Please take the time and explain.
L.J.R: It maybe news to you “BUT” NZ has never ever been able to DENY an aggressor, ( by definition I refer to not a single lone aggressor but invasion of sorts)
NZ’s military aviation history is something this wee nation can be proud of.
In times past we took our men and machines to wars in far off lands, we bleed and died in all manner of ways, alongside, Brits, Aussies,Yanks, Israelies,Fijians, “just to name a few that readily come to mind.
It is not the fast jet issue that has been of concern to me, it has always been one of being able to defend ourselves for long enough until help arrives.( from where and who)
Getting back to the fast movers, they require specialized handling and runways.
Tactically now, in an attack on our nation the first to go would be communications, electricity, and runways, in all probability it would be a multiple strike on all three simultaneously ? now how you going to defend the country?.
In any form of defense, the countries topography is of immense importance.
It is with regard to NZ’s topographical features that our government has historically never bothered to address.
NZ is “similar” in essence to Switzerland, ( except for coastline).
In my humble opinion, under the ANZUS agreement, NZ should be contributing money and men to the RAAF on a continual basis, and pay for it, or contribute on a share per capita basis, the operational costs of their F18’s, @ F111’s, IE our “KNUCK’s” are always on secondment to Aussie.
Our shore lines and EEZ’s should be monitored by P3-B’s.
Our Navy ship numbers need to be increased.
Our Tactical support increased, with the likes of a lot of smaller aerial transports to utilize our topographical hill country strips.
Feel free to laugh and rubbish me if you want, but a bunch of defenders, kitted out for low level down amongst the weeds stuff,( Look up & shoot down) that can at a moments notice redeploy and continue the fight, from different locations.
More attack helicopters.
And last but not least: Compulsory military training at age 18, with lifetime military enrollment to retirement:
NZ has been dragging the chain for far too long, with far too much emphasis on peace keeping and the like.
Now back to LJR, perhaps we can agree on the threat, I would say even more perilous today economically, than ever before.
When are we going to wake up: we are at the bottom of the Earth, we are isolated, we are pissing off our allies.
But then at what price, at what tax rate, what would happen to our already screwed up education, health, judicial systems.
My opinion only, but the sooner NZ becomes part of Aussie, the better.
My ravings, my opinions:
NZ a f-----g beautiful, & f----d up wee nation, but its my country and I do LOVE it, certainly worth defending.
Who was it that said “ If you want peace! Arm up”
Kiwi girl, I agree with your sentiments exactly, use to give me a H—d-on, “watching” Frank Sharp and his lads put the machines through its paces, especially I will add, the Flt Roll under and breakaway executed at 450ft Agl & 480kts!( from memory).:D:D:D
Now! how did this all start, me and my imagination? Kiwi girl and her “feelings of pleasure”.:E:E:E:E:E
Now where are my happy pills!:}
Chr's
H/Snort.

Oh? I must have missed that, under what provision of the treaty was NZ suspended and who did the suspending?

I think they should be auctioned off on ebay. They could be "disarmed" to the USA's satisfaction. There are F104's (Starfighters), & Lightnings to name a few, in private hands, so I cant see the yanks getting too excited by a few clapped out A4's in the air on a weekend. Can you? Seen a MIG 21 recently in the states also flying. Anything has to be better than seeing the things go rotten on the ground. Cant see it would would take 2 - 3 million each to get airworthy (not war ready) either. NZ$1 million tops.

Keep'im flyin'

I agree, they were brilliant in Timor and certainly more reliable than our own.

I Don't really want to debate the RNZAF fast jet thing, I have my own opinions but its not up to me so there is no point.
I was lucky enough to see the A-4s regularly during my time in the ADF and growing up on the NSW south coast, both in RAN and RNZAF service. It is a shame to see them end up in this predicarment. I hope they are disarmed and placed in museums as soon as possible. I would hate to see them end up like the RANs Trackers, remember the mooted sale to Brazil (I think)? They ended up rotting for years in the open at Nowra.

We're not talking about an invasion, we're talking the plundering of your natural resources and more signficantly piracy. Once these guys discover you're helpless, then the trouble starts. Try life on the North West coast of Borneo and in the Sulu Sea if you want a taster. :rolleyes:

Malaysia and Indonesia don't have enough air assets to control their own airspace in the region. The pirates are willing and able to fight it out with the Malaysian and Indonesian coastal forces. Fast Jet bombers would make a considerable difference, believe me.

Some irony in the fact that one of the last places you can see the Skyhawk being used is as a target towing platform for the Luftwaffe operating out of Wittmund, Northern Germany. These are ex-Israeli aircraft (the latest ones not even repainted yet) being flown under a BAE Systems contract for the German Government, some of them under civilian N numbers. Must have been an interesting export license application if nothing else.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1286168/M/

ANZUS:
 

KOMAC2:
Get your toungue out of your cheek!:}
Yes you are absolutely correct, who cancelled ANZUS??
Yes NZ "Military personal do have some wonderous skills" "nose bleeders included".
Still we need to contribute under ANZUS!:ok:
H/Snort

I can just imagine it, high speed fizz boats doing the 14,000 mile round trip from Indonesia to raid my crayfish pots!

If ships are plundering the resources of NZ we need (as I have already inidcated) P3s to find them and surface ships to make the arrest.

Do you think we should unwrap those aircraft and go bomb a Japanese whaler?

Of course, in reality, the only country even remotely likely to plunder our resources has carrier task groups and I am not sure what a few A4s could do about them.

The Invasion:
 

Mr Hill, its Already started::E:E
How many of our immigrants, are implants?
What happens when the likes of China run out of water? yes their industry is absorbing it at an alarming rate.
What happens to China's neighbours when China COMPLETES the biggest DAM in history?
What happens?
Why did our Australian bothers and sisters build the most modern and advanced over the horizon radar system?
About time NZ, instead of riding on the shirt tails, and taking an unfair advantage of our Aussie brothers & sisters,stood up and took a more responsible attitude!
NZ more than Aussie has been hell bent on expanding our population base to expand our economic base.:ugh:
Only NZ can "never" compete with Aussie on the same economic base, immigrants find NZ an easier system to migrate to, then use the documentation NZ gives them to make their way to Aussie?:mad::mad:
But hey maybe my imagination is just too vivid?:}
It is not your crayfish pots you need to worry about!
It is your way of life that is under attack, and we are very fast losing it.
Just wait until the "Koyoto" protocol and the UN get into full swing?
You an't seen nothing yet?
Want to keep your crayfish pot? are you prepared to stand up for for your right to set your pot?:ugh:
Hey maybe I am way off the mark!:E:E
Chr's
H/Snort

<<How many of our immigrants, are implants?>> Thats why we send our best to Australia!
<<What happens when the likes of China run out of water? yes their industry is absorbing it at an alarming rate.>> Looks like Australia might beat them to that, can we be sure the skippies will not come and start slurping the fresh water from Doubtful Sound? Maybe they are not our best mates after all? :}
<<What happens to China's neighbours when China COMPLETES the biggest DAM in history? What happens? >> Big war in Asia?

<<Why did our Australian bothers and sisters build the most modern and advanced over the horizon radar system?>> Maybe because they could not rely on getting advance warning of the Indonesian invasion from the satellites of their ANZUS partners?:bored:


<<About time NZ, instead of riding on the shirt tails, and taking an unfair advantage of our Aussie brothers & sisters,stood up and took a more responsible attitude!>> More ANZAC frigates.:)

<<NZ more than Aussie has been hell bent on expanding our population base to expand our economic base.>> Silly people, have we not learned anything from the example of Singapore?:rolleyes:

<<Only NZ can "never" compete with Aussie on the same economic base, immigrants find NZ an easier system to migrate to, then use the documentation NZ gives them to make their way to Aussie?>> What about all those skippies who came to NZ in the 1890's, some of their descendants are still stealing oxygen here!:p

<<But hey maybe my imagination is just too vivid?>>:D


<<It is not your crayfish pots you need to worry about!
It is your way of life that is under attack, and we are very fast losing it.
Just wait until the "Koyoto" protocol and the UN get into full swing?
You an't seen nothing yet?>> Just how many bogey men do I have to face on this pleasant Sunday morning in Godzone? :confused:


<<Want to keep your crayfish pot? are you prepared to stand up for for your right to set your pot?>> I was told on another topic that I will be dead soon or maybe only Tangata Whenua will be allowed to set pots in the future.:hmm: