France seeks to Rejoin NATO Military Force
 

The only answer to this is NON! Hopefully the USA will veto it again. Revenge is, after all, a dish best eaten cold......

France may rejoin military wing of Nato

President Nicolas Sarkozy, a self-proclaimed Gaullist, may be ready to reverse one of the most celebrated actions sanctioned by Charles de Gaulle – France's abrupt exit from the military wing of Nato in 1966.

After a hint dropped by M. Sarkozy last month, the country's Defence Minister, Hervé Morin, has raised the possibility of France rejoining the integrated, military structure of the alliance. In return, he suggested, France would want the US to lift its objections to the development of a European Union defence policy linked to Nato. Paris would also want Nato to rethink its overall strategy and structures.

The idea, put forward by M. Morin during a defence summer school at the University of Toulouse, is part of a drive by the President to repair relations between France and the US. It is also a recognition that the European Union defence policy, launched by President Jacques Chirac and Tony Blair at St Malo in December 1998, cannot go far without Washington's blessing.

Since 1966, France has been a member of the Nato alliance but not part of its military high command. Senior French officers have long complained this is an impossible situation. France finds itself taking part on the fringes of Nato operations, without the ability to influence decisions. This, said one diplomat, reduced French forces to the role of harkis – the name given to Algerians who served as auxiliaries with the French army during the Algerian War of Independence from 1954 to 1962.

President Chirac sought to rejoin Nato's military command in 1997 but the US rejected the conditions demanded by France.

Why should the answer be <<Non!>>

There is less support in many areas for US influence in European affairs than hitherto - the French proposal sounds pretty reasonable.

The childish 'Freedom Fries' mindset is more deserving of change.

Aren't you being a little unfair their ORAC?

Whilst the French have butted heads with the US and other NATO countries in the past over many issues perhaps now is the time to play the big man and let then back into the military wing of NATO unconditionally.

Yes of course the only reason they want to get back in is for purely nationalistic reasons, a want of a 'slice of the action' so to speak to counter the increasing marginalisation of France as it subsequently becomes an irrelevance on the world stage but they have a useful armed forces who would be an asset in a NATO force, after all what other country has a white flag waving and lackadaisical force projection capability like theirs (surely the cornerstone of modern NATO ops if the attitudes of many non-US/UK NATO military forces are taken into account)? Perhaps they could team up with the German military for a more effective 'stay somewhere safe and let the UK/US take casualties' approach to the war in Afghanistan?
;)

They don't need to be in the military structure to deploy anywhere - they're in Afghanistan. We got through the Cold War without them. I don't see the benefit in having them in now.

Didn't stop the French leaking secrets to the enemy during the various Balkans campaigns. They also insisted on being the first in to Pristina during the Kosovo campaign, even though they contributed little if anything in the run up, whilst we lost a Herc.

the development of a European Union defence policy linked to Nato.

I assume this defence policy involves using British infantry to do all the fighting, and rows of new French forces will cope with the thousands of volunteers for cushty tax free peace keeping duties.

Welcome on board, come and join the fun.

The slightly less cynical side in me suggests that Sarkozy is very different to those who have been before. Might be a genuine offer.

I think they must be serious about this proposal.

I've just heard that their top brass are discussing surrender terms already!

THS said However ORAC's original quote included

Nothing unconditional there THS.

Goose and Gander spring to mind.

Let them back in.....





...We have shedloads of white flags that need a new home.

Just wondering if there will be a secret agreement to commit the French forces to a more active role in Afghanistan if they are allowed back in? Or perhaps this is something the French authorities hope may be in the considerations of NATO HQ?

By the way. I just returned home to Scotland from Paris today :} I took some time to visit the fantastic military museum "Les Invalides." France has a proud military history like us and I don't think it does us any justice to constantly poo poo them in the manner of a tabloid newspaper. :=

The Helpful Stacker: Well, he pooh-poohed the French here and said that he'd never find the reason.

Caspian: Is this true? Did ORAC commit a pooh-pooh?

ORAC: Well, perhaps a little.

Caspian: Well then, damn it all, how much more evidence do you need? The pooh-poohing alone is a court-martial offence!

ORAC: I can assure you, sir, that the pooh-poohing was purely circumstantial.

Caspian: Well, I hope so, ORAC. You know, if there's one thing I've learned from being in the Air Force, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Sqn Ldr: got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh -- he pooh-poohed it. Fatal error, because it turned out all along that the airman who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers, who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the Squadron -- morale totally destroyed ... by pooh-pooh!

:)

Oh, yeah. I see what you did there. A rather unfortunate use of language by myself, cunningly manipulated to make me look foolish. :* I can see I'll have to watch my step.

I wasn't specifically targetting anyone out as an ..er.. Arch pooh-pooher de la Francais (thanks for the spelling correction) or suggesting that, god forbid, anyone should be disciplined for it! I was only expressing my opinion which of course I know means jack-pooh.

Seriously though, I hope countries like France do take a more active role in Afghanistan so that countries like Britain do not have to take the full brunt of the casualties. If allowing the French back into the military structure of NATO can achieve this then I am all for it. Of course if they are not prepared to negotiate on the issue and seek only to further their own ambitions then they should be denied.

Mate, not trying to make anyone look foolish, it was a bit of jape :)

Its always struck me a bit bizarre why the French havent been part of Nato militarily - they are a potent force - for example their Navy is very good and their Carrier SOPs, for instance, are very, very good. Very swept up. Cant comment on their Air Force or Army however a bit more Coalition integration cant be a bad thing, as long as they learn to flush their loos :eek: (long story ........ :yuk: )

Oggin

Thanks Oggin, I am a fairly new poster on this forum and was just thinking, "Jesus! This is a tough neighbourhood." :)

I really think the French/NATO thing is a lot more complex than them being white flag waving surrender-monkeys. I think there is a real paranoia in France about the destruction of their culture and indentity. They see the overbearing influence of the USA in everything from movies to military. I think this makes them prickly. I guess they wanted to retain their own military identity.

Perhaps in the UK we don't understand this because our culture has to some extent been consumed by that of the US. We aren't divided by the language barrier (which is collapsing in France if my holiday experience is anything to go by) and our children worship American movie heroes and music stars. We think nothing of buying off the shelf US military hardware often to the detriment of our own industry etc etc.

Heck, I'm way out of my depth here. I'm just a simple Scot. I hope you understand the point I am getting at and how this relates to the French military and NATO

Got to be kiddin...

The French marginally less trustworthy than the .......................US.

Quick to sell missiles to the argies and leak info to the iraqis.

Tell them to bugg*r off.

Actually I thought we bought all the spare Exocet although I understand the French technicians remained in place. Maybe they remembers Toulouse and Orange and Trafalgar, and St Vincent, a Abu Kebir :}

There is an active exchange with the AWACS. Remember the Jaguar was the AF(non)VG.

Even though they left the military structure they retained 'observer' status on the SIOP planners.

At Least we would have someone to cover the rear:ooh:
Charlie sends

They better start thinking of speaking English on the radio first. Even German pilots speak English to their own ops etc in Germany, yet the only country who can't be arsed and gets in a pissy about one of their cabinet talking in English is the French.

I can't quite believe I'm daring to correct PN :eek: but for "Toulouse and Orange and Trafalgar, and St Vincent, a Abu Kebir" try "Toulon and Oran and Trafalgar, and St Vincent, Mers el Kebir"!

Toulouse and Orange were a bit far inland even for our then big guns and, if I recall correctly, the FS STRASBOURG at least made it back to Toulon and into Vichy French hands.

No quibble with Trafalgar and St Vincent!

Jack

Throw away comment:-

They're French. For the most part they have been stabbing us in the back since before 1066...

We haven't needed them. We don't need them now. They want something - perfect time to tell them to fcuk off and giggle about their loss.

Razor, I think you highlight the point I was trying to make in my previous post. This is a direct result of their fear over the errosion of French culture. They want to protect their language from being replaced by "Americanese."

Obviously this has serious implications to joint operations, but it is not a sign that they are lazy or are just being obstinate. At worst this stems from their own feelings of inadequacy in a world that is no longer controlled by European Great powers.

Rubbish... They embrace "football" and a whole slew of other "anglicized" words... They aren't protecting anything... They're being typically French.

Well of course there will be sharing of language. Many english words are derived from french also. That is not the point. Of course the word football in the sense we are talking about can hardly be described as Americanese. *What I really mean here is that America is now the motivational force behind the English language in the world for obvious reasons.*

I'm sure the french military understand the possible benefits of clear and concise radio communications with their allies. I would have thought that there must be some better reason for them not to take this advantage other than, that they are just being french.

In terms of NATO they really don't have "allies".

The French have, clearly, chosen to go their own route for their own reasons for a few decades now. Their "route" has been proven to be a route that has conflicted with many of NATO's initiatives. Now, all of a sudden, they want to play...

If Europeans chose to "accept them back into the fold" I believe you will see exactly why the "Freedom Fries" attitude came to be.

The French are the _most_ cynical bunch of weiners in Europe. They "opt out" of NATO, (thus saving themselves billions of francs in "contributions"), while being surrounded, (and therefore protected by), NATO countries. They wouldn't have done that had they bordered a Warsaw Pact country in the first place.

They have lived off NATO for decades, protected by us, at no cost. When they carry the burden of NATO, in it's entirety for five years, (men, equipment and money), and do it effectively without intervention by the rest of us then they should be considered for entry to NATO.... Until then I believe NATO should grant free passage to France for anyone who choses to attack them... That's not unreasonable... They can't be allowed to hide behind us... But they could pay us to not allow that "free passage".

I have $1000 says they would run if given that "deal"... and it is a good deal for the protection they have had!!!

Airborne, you make a fantastic point that I had not considered. Was this a concerted effort by the French to save money and get defense on the cheap or was it just a quirk of geography?

I understood from earlier posts that they did not completely withdraw from the NATO alliance but from the upper command structure and that they would have been involved in NATO's defense of Europe if the worst came to the worst. I bow to your knowledge on how much they would have saved because I frankly know nothing on this topic.

Please don't dismiss my arguement about french fears over their identity though. There have been many initiatives in France from the military/business language restrictions to limiting the amount of foreign movies that appear in French cinemas etc.

The French do go to great lengths to protect the lingo, via L’Académie Française. This august body is officially responsible for deliberating on language use, and they get terribly miffed at the creeping anglicisation of day-to-day speech.

When the Sony Walkman became popular, in response to the fact that the nation talked about 'Le Walkman', L’Académie Française, bless 'em, dug through the dictionary of long-obsolete words and imposed an official word upon the nation from this list (IIRC, it was 'Baladeur' which was a wandering minstrel, which seemed vaguely relevant).

They've also tried to prevent the government from using the term 'La Ministre' to refer to female government ministers, since the correct gender for 'Ministre' is masculine, and if you start on the slippery slope of fiddling about with word genders, you'll be speaking Americanised English before you know it.

Of course, being French, the populace usually takes note of the fact that there's a new official word they're to use and promptly ignore it.

Man !
You guys don t like these french now do you ?...:ouch:
Still love their language though, and I am not sure English is the international official language yet...

Hi, discus2. I like the French and think they are ..erm.. misunderstood. I think Archimedes was able to express in more eloquent terms something that I've been rolling around all night.

I also admire their bravery and nerve after personally witnessing Parisian driving this week!! I think they must get one lesson only. The instuctions are: This is your horn and these are your bumpers, now go, aller, aller, vite, vite. :)

They opted out in the first place, and they should now stay out. They have nothing, bring nothing, and we don't need them.

Can't trust them anyway. Seem to remember that they were providing technical support to Argentina for the Exocet while we were busy fighting a war. Nothing surprising there.

Bob C

Hey at least they got a carier and aircraft to fly of them







runs for cover

So do we. Difference is....we use them :cool:

Bob C

While this may be true in many cases it is apparently not true of even seeming French words.

I have it on good authority that what is wrong with the French, according to George Dubya, is that they do not have a word for entrepreneur.:}

What do the Rosbeefs that have done exchange postings with the Frogs think? Could they easily integrate? Are their procedures much different, (if at all) from NATO?

Seen many a time on French ebay:

'For Sale - my rifle. A1 condition, never used, dropped only once.'

Wouldn't trust one or all of them as far as .........

They have vetoed against pretty much all of our actions in the past and then in some, joined us (Balkans) to a lesser extent.
They have helped out many countries we have been in conflict with (Okay so have we :oh: )
They refuse the US bombers to fly over their airspace making them fly from the UK around Portugal and then up the Med Sea...
They refuse to talk English on the radio and when they do talk English because they are in British airspace, they cannot be understood because they are not used to speaking it.

But, even though they are not in NATO, they still train their pilots with NATO every week with TLP and in larger exercises such as Neptune Warrior (JMC). I'm surprised they even go as far as doing FOST courses in the UK...

They have capable forces in regards to equipment but are afraid to use it. They only conduct operations with the UN of which are not offensive and so why do they need all these flashy new equipment they are buying?

Beggars can't be choosers, but....
 

The following has been touch-typed on a French keyboard....

I think the ideq of the French re!joining NQTO is q good one even though there ,ight be so,e prqcticql objections: Not leqst thew do see, to stick to French zhen using English ,ight be the better; sqfer option:

I q, presentlw eqring q crust qs q pilot in q ,ixed Frqncophone/English environ,ent: One is often reduced to guessing zhqt thqt other qircrqft is up to zhen he is co,,unicqting zith the Tozer in French: Self!preservqtion hqs led ,e to leqrn q bit of bqsic French but even so::::

That aside they do seem to have a fair number of completely mad bastards who should prove useful in a scrap. Why not be big about this, ignore past politics and welcome them back into NATO? Just an idea, there....

The French have very effective forces and they have been, and are still being, deployed operationally. They have an extensive record of operations in various Francophone regions of Africa. They exercise frequently with NATO forces and are the lead country in major projects such as NATO ACCS.

However.

They have their own agenda. They wanted an integrated EU military force, and undoubtedly still do. I have no doubts they would insist on several of the higher ranking NATO posts and would campaign to make it a more European force and to supplant the USA as the lead nation on many projects and technology programmes.

I see no need to upset the applecart. I can see no major problems within NATO or with the current means of coordinating their forces which would require their entry, whilst I can see many potential problems subsequent to their entry.

If it ain't broke - don't fix it.

"Whilst the French have butted heads with the US and other NATO countries in the past over many issues perhaps now is the time to play the big man and let then back into the military wing of NATO unconditionally."

i suspect the U.S. wouldn't object to that

but why should they accede to a list of demands, when the french aren't needed in the miltary wing of Nato?

They've asked the same question they did in 1997 and i suspect they'll get the same answer

Chuks said

Well, I might not say that to the Legions face, but give them a crack at Helmand for 6 months and then maybe review their application?

Actually there was a time when they had been involved in more, and more intense, conflicts since WW2 than ourselves or the Americans.

In fairness to the French, (and you have no idea how much I hate to be fair to the bastiges... :sad: ), with regard to the Exocet issue during the FI they had actually already given the Argies the training they needed and when the British Task Force were in range they began to give us data on how to evade the Exocets... So they don't get credit, but they shouldn't be castigated for it either.

When all is said and done there are three issues that need "attention".

1. The question of "why now?" needs to be satisfactorily answered. IMO, the French are not above having some kind of deal with Iran that requires them to "call off the dogs" in return for X. If they get any kind of say in NATO policy they can affect decisions that might benefit Iran. (That's just an off the wall example to make a point...).

2. Who benefits? NATO, clearly hasn't needed the French at any time to be an effective deterrent so what are the French bringing to the table today that we need? Nothing of any great import I would suggest since the need for NATO in it's classic sense is significantly reduced, (unless and until China starts rattling it's swords). Thus, it has to be the French benefiting which goes back to the "Why now?" question above.

3. Lastly, there's a considerable trust issue. We have witnessed the French on the UN security council seemingly gratuitously blocking actions that many of the NATO nations wish to take only to find out later that they were dealing, (heavily), with the "enemy". I don't trust them and many people I know don't either... and sensible people do not fight alongside a person they don't trust...

Caspian:

Point taken... But boy, have they dug themselves a huge hole with their immigration policies of the last twenty years... ;)