France seeks to Rejoin NATO Military Force
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
France seeks to Rejoin NATO Military Force
The only answer to this is NON! Hopefully the USA will veto it again. Revenge is, after all, a dish best eaten cold......
France may rejoin military wing of Nato
President Nicolas Sarkozy, a self-proclaimed Gaullist, may be ready to reverse one of the most celebrated actions sanctioned by Charles de Gaulle – France's abrupt exit from the military wing of Nato in 1966.
After a hint dropped by M. Sarkozy last month, the country's Defence Minister, Hervé Morin, has raised the possibility of France rejoining the integrated, military structure of the alliance. In return, he suggested, France would want the US to lift its objections to the development of a European Union defence policy linked to Nato. Paris would also want Nato to rethink its overall strategy and structures.
The idea, put forward by M. Morin during a defence summer school at the University of Toulouse, is part of a drive by the President to repair relations between France and the US. It is also a recognition that the European Union defence policy, launched by President Jacques Chirac and Tony Blair at St Malo in December 1998, cannot go far without Washington's blessing.
Since 1966, France has been a member of the Nato alliance but not part of its military high command. Senior French officers have long complained this is an impossible situation. France finds itself taking part on the fringes of Nato operations, without the ability to influence decisions. This, said one diplomat, reduced French forces to the role of harkis – the name given to Algerians who served as auxiliaries with the French army during the Algerian War of Independence from 1954 to 1962.
President Chirac sought to rejoin Nato's military command in 1997 but the US rejected the conditions demanded by France.
France may rejoin military wing of Nato
President Nicolas Sarkozy, a self-proclaimed Gaullist, may be ready to reverse one of the most celebrated actions sanctioned by Charles de Gaulle – France's abrupt exit from the military wing of Nato in 1966.
After a hint dropped by M. Sarkozy last month, the country's Defence Minister, Hervé Morin, has raised the possibility of France rejoining the integrated, military structure of the alliance. In return, he suggested, France would want the US to lift its objections to the development of a European Union defence policy linked to Nato. Paris would also want Nato to rethink its overall strategy and structures.
The idea, put forward by M. Morin during a defence summer school at the University of Toulouse, is part of a drive by the President to repair relations between France and the US. It is also a recognition that the European Union defence policy, launched by President Jacques Chirac and Tony Blair at St Malo in December 1998, cannot go far without Washington's blessing.
Since 1966, France has been a member of the Nato alliance but not part of its military high command. Senior French officers have long complained this is an impossible situation. France finds itself taking part on the fringes of Nato operations, without the ability to influence decisions. This, said one diplomat, reduced French forces to the role of harkis – the name given to Algerians who served as auxiliaries with the French army during the Algerian War of Independence from 1954 to 1962.
President Chirac sought to rejoin Nato's military command in 1997 but the US rejected the conditions demanded by France.
Why should the answer be <<Non!>>
There is less support in many areas for US influence in European affairs than hitherto - the French proposal sounds pretty reasonable.
The childish 'Freedom Fries' mindset is more deserving of change.
There is less support in many areas for US influence in European affairs than hitherto - the French proposal sounds pretty reasonable.
The childish 'Freedom Fries' mindset is more deserving of change.
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Aren't you being a little unfair their ORAC?
Whilst the French have butted heads with the US and other NATO countries in the past over many issues perhaps now is the time to play the big man and let then back into the military wing of NATO unconditionally.
Yes of course the only reason they want to get back in is for purely nationalistic reasons, a want of a 'slice of the action' so to speak to counter the increasing marginalisation of France as it subsequently becomes an irrelevance on the world stage but they have a useful armed forces who would be an asset in a NATO force, after all what other country has a white flag waving and lackadaisical force projection capability like theirs (surely the cornerstone of modern NATO ops if the attitudes of many non-US/UK NATO military forces are taken into account)? Perhaps they could team up with the German military for a more effective 'stay somewhere safe and let the UK/US take casualties' approach to the war in Afghanistan?
Whilst the French have butted heads with the US and other NATO countries in the past over many issues perhaps now is the time to play the big man and let then back into the military wing of NATO unconditionally.
Yes of course the only reason they want to get back in is for purely nationalistic reasons, a want of a 'slice of the action' so to speak to counter the increasing marginalisation of France as it subsequently becomes an irrelevance on the world stage but they have a useful armed forces who would be an asset in a NATO force, after all what other country has a white flag waving and lackadaisical force projection capability like theirs (surely the cornerstone of modern NATO ops if the attitudes of many non-US/UK NATO military forces are taken into account)? Perhaps they could team up with the German military for a more effective 'stay somewhere safe and let the UK/US take casualties' approach to the war in Afghanistan?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
They don't need to be in the military structure to deploy anywhere - they're in Afghanistan. We got through the Cold War without them. I don't see the benefit in having them in now.
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Didn't stop the French leaking secrets to the enemy during the various Balkans campaigns. They also insisted on being the first in to Pristina during the Kosovo campaign, even though they contributed little if anything in the run up, whilst we lost a Herc.
the development of a European Union defence policy linked to Nato.
I assume this defence policy involves using British infantry to do all the fighting, and rows of new French forces will cope with the thousands of volunteers for cushty tax free peace keeping duties.
Welcome on board, come and join the fun.
The slightly less cynical side in me suggests that Sarkozy is very different to those who have been before. Might be a genuine offer.
the development of a European Union defence policy linked to Nato.
I assume this defence policy involves using British infantry to do all the fighting, and rows of new French forces will cope with the thousands of volunteers for cushty tax free peace keeping duties.
Welcome on board, come and join the fun.
The slightly less cynical side in me suggests that Sarkozy is very different to those who have been before. Might be a genuine offer.
Last edited by nigegilb; 13th Sep 2007 at 07:59.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
THS said
However ORAC's original quote included
Nothing unconditional there THS.
Goose and Gander spring to mind.
let them back into the military wing of NATO unconditionally
In return, he suggested, France would want the US to lift its objections to the development of a European Union defence policy linked to Nato. Paris would also want Nato to rethink its overall strategy and structures.
Goose and Gander spring to mind.
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Just wondering if there will be a secret agreement to commit the French forces to a more active role in Afghanistan if they are allowed back in? Or perhaps this is something the French authorities hope may be in the considerations of NATO HQ?
By the way. I just returned home to Scotland from Paris today
I took some time to visit the fantastic military museum "Les Invalides." France has a proud military history like us and I don't think it does us any justice to constantly poo poo them in the manner of a tabloid newspaper. 
By the way. I just returned home to Scotland from Paris today
I took some time to visit the fantastic military museum "Les Invalides." France has a proud military history like us and I don't think it does us any justice to constantly poo poo them in the manner of a tabloid newspaper.
Last edited by Caspian237; 13th Sep 2007 at 17:40.
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and I don't think it does us any justice to constantly poo poo them in the manner of a tabloid newspaper.
Caspian: Is this true? Did ORAC commit a pooh-pooh?
ORAC: Well, perhaps a little.
Caspian: Well then, damn it all, how much more evidence do you need? The pooh-poohing alone is a court-martial offence!
ORAC: I can assure you, sir, that the pooh-poohing was purely circumstantial.
Caspian: Well, I hope so, ORAC. You know, if there's one thing I've learned from being in the Air Force, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Sqn Ldr: got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh -- he pooh-poohed it. Fatal error, because it turned out all along that the airman who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers, who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the Squadron -- morale totally destroyed ... by pooh-pooh!
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Oh, yeah. I see what you did there. A rather unfortunate use of language by myself, cunningly manipulated to make me look foolish. 
I can see I'll have to watch my step.
I wasn't specifically targetting anyone out as an ..er.. Arch pooh-pooher de la Francais (thanks for the spelling correction) or suggesting that, god forbid, anyone should be disciplined for it! I was only expressing my opinion which of course I know means jack-pooh.
Seriously though, I hope countries like France do take a more active role in Afghanistan so that countries like Britain do not have to take the full brunt of the casualties. If allowing the French back into the military structure of NATO can achieve this then I am all for it. Of course if they are not prepared to negotiate on the issue and seek only to further their own ambitions then they should be denied.
I can see I'll have to watch my step.I wasn't specifically targetting anyone out as an ..er.. Arch pooh-pooher de la Francais (thanks for the spelling correction) or suggesting that, god forbid, anyone should be disciplined for it! I was only expressing my opinion which of course I know means jack-pooh.
Seriously though, I hope countries like France do take a more active role in Afghanistan so that countries like Britain do not have to take the full brunt of the casualties. If allowing the French back into the military structure of NATO can achieve this then I am all for it. Of course if they are not prepared to negotiate on the issue and seek only to further their own ambitions then they should be denied.
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Mate, not trying to make anyone look foolish, it was a bit of jape
Its always struck me a bit bizarre why the French havent been part of Nato militarily - they are a potent force - for example their Navy is very good and their Carrier SOPs, for instance, are very, very good. Very swept up. Cant comment on their Air Force or Army however a bit more Coalition integration cant be a bad thing, as long as they learn to flush their loos
(long story ........ 
)
Oggin
Its always struck me a bit bizarre why the French havent been part of Nato militarily - they are a potent force - for example their Navy is very good and their Carrier SOPs, for instance, are very, very good. Very swept up. Cant comment on their Air Force or Army however a bit more Coalition integration cant be a bad thing, as long as they learn to flush their loos
(long story ........ )Oggin
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Thanks Oggin, I am a fairly new poster on this forum and was just thinking, "Jesus! This is a tough neighbourhood."
I really think the French/NATO thing is a lot more complex than them being white flag waving surrender-monkeys. I think there is a real paranoia in France about the destruction of their culture and indentity. They see the overbearing influence of the USA in everything from movies to military. I think this makes them prickly. I guess they wanted to retain their own military identity.
Perhaps in the UK we don't understand this because our culture has to some extent been consumed by that of the US. We aren't divided by the language barrier (which is collapsing in France if my holiday experience is anything to go by) and our children worship American movie heroes and music stars. We think nothing of buying off the shelf US military hardware often to the detriment of our own industry etc etc.
Heck, I'm way out of my depth here. I'm just a simple Scot. I hope you understand the point I am getting at and how this relates to the French military and NATO
I really think the French/NATO thing is a lot more complex than them being white flag waving surrender-monkeys. I think there is a real paranoia in France about the destruction of their culture and indentity. They see the overbearing influence of the USA in everything from movies to military. I think this makes them prickly. I guess they wanted to retain their own military identity.
Perhaps in the UK we don't understand this because our culture has to some extent been consumed by that of the US. We aren't divided by the language barrier (which is collapsing in France if my holiday experience is anything to go by) and our children worship American movie heroes and music stars. We think nothing of buying off the shelf US military hardware often to the detriment of our own industry etc etc.
Heck, I'm way out of my depth here. I'm just a simple Scot. I hope you understand the point I am getting at and how this relates to the French military and NATO
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Got to be kiddin...
The French marginally less trustworthy than the .......................US.
Quick to sell missiles to the argies and leak info to the iraqis.
Tell them to bugg*r off.
The French marginally less trustworthy than the .......................US.
Quick to sell missiles to the argies and leak info to the iraqis.
Tell them to bugg*r off.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Actually I thought we bought all the spare Exocet although I understand the French technicians remained in place. Maybe they remembers Toulouse and Orange and Trafalgar, and St Vincent, a Abu Kebir
There is an active exchange with the AWACS. Remember the Jaguar was the AF(non)VG.
Even though they left the military structure they retained 'observer' status on the SIOP planners.
There is an active exchange with the AWACS. Remember the Jaguar was the AF(non)VG.
Even though they left the military structure they retained 'observer' status on the SIOP planners.
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They better start thinking of speaking English on the radio first. Even German pilots speak English to their own ops etc in Germany, yet the only country who can't be arsed and gets in a pissy about one of their cabinet talking in English is the French.
I can't quite believe I'm daring to correct PN but for "Toulouse and Orange and Trafalgar, and St Vincent, a Abu Kebir" try "Toulon and Oran and Trafalgar, and St Vincent, Mers el Kebir"!
Toulouse and Orange were a bit far inland even for our then big guns and, if I recall correctly, the FS STRASBOURG at least made it back to Toulon and into Vichy French hands.
No quibble with Trafalgar and St Vincent!
Jack
but for "Toulouse and Orange and Trafalgar, and St Vincent, a Abu Kebir" try "Toulon and Oran and Trafalgar, and St Vincent, Mers el Kebir"!Toulouse and Orange were a bit far inland even for our then big guns and, if I recall correctly, the FS STRASBOURG at least made it back to Toulon and into Vichy French hands.
No quibble with Trafalgar and St Vincent!
Jack
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Throw away comment:-
They're French. For the most part they have been stabbing us in the back since before 1066...
We haven't needed them. We don't need them now. They want something - perfect time to tell them to fcuk off and giggle about their loss.
They're French. For the most part they have been stabbing us in the back since before 1066...
We haven't needed them. We don't need them now. They want something - perfect time to tell them to fcuk off and giggle about their loss.
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Razor, I think you highlight the point I was trying to make in my previous post. This is a direct result of their fear over the errosion of French culture. They want to protect their language from being replaced by "Americanese."
Obviously this has serious implications to joint operations, but it is not a sign that they are lazy or are just being obstinate. At worst this stems from their own feelings of inadequacy in a world that is no longer controlled by European Great powers.
Obviously this has serious implications to joint operations, but it is not a sign that they are lazy or are just being obstinate. At worst this stems from their own feelings of inadequacy in a world that is no longer controlled by European Great powers.