XS, I do wear blue, but live behind the wire protected by aircrew's butty boxes, more stuffing than the average sand bag.

The only war stories worth mentioning is that of Tullbahadur Pun VC, or more recently Johnson Beharry VC :D:D:D:D

We cannot compete with those, so lets not pretend.

Air crew rations memories:

The most expensive...........Provided by Gulf Air.

The best.............Honkers at 0400 at 20W.

The worst.......Fischk Balls in gravy......3rd wet thought they were potatoes.
SORRY CHANGED MY MIND .......SOMETHING IN A BOX ON A HERC.

The most food in one day......Lunch.....scrambled on SAR ate 8 hours of rations in 3.5 hours..........Land.......Dinner........Duty supper.....Breakfast. All free of course.

Enough of this rubbish....
 

Oh dear...and I thought you usually made sense ZH875.

Aircrew on ground tours are there for the 'Service Need' - believe me, they would not be there by choice. Their roles need an 'air perspective' that cannot be provided by other branches or, er, they would be - especially since the capitation rate would be less - which is rather the point of this tedious thread. So, given a little logical thought, it should be obvious that you are paying aviators for their specialist knowledge and skills, irrespective of whether that is on the ground or in the air.

I agree with Truckkie - I find it alarming that some harbour such contempt towards the 'point of the spear'. This is the Royal AIR Force after all.

The 'spear' is a good analogy because without a solid shaft behind the tip (ooh er, etc) then it is useless. Hence, mutual respect is the order of the day - or should be.

In my (quite considerable) experience, aircrew are the most self-deprecating bunch of dedicated and competent professionals you could ever have the good fortune to work with. That is not an exclusive statement. Unfortunately, there are evidently some who enjoy clinging to their prejudice.

The case has been made – those that continue to snipe either cannot understand it or positively wish to remain ignorant. Can I suggest that we let this thread wither on the vine?

ZH875,
I agree. Get me out of this ground tour and send me back into the cockpit. Smiles all round from me.:) Thata what I'm paid for and would love to do, again.

ZH, you also forget that many aircrew blokes also have engineering degrees. So when it comes to the right man to spec new equipment, why not go for somebody who not only understands the technology but also it's applicability and practicality (or not).

Blogger,

Flying pay is all about retention.

To illustrate, i am a 2gp pilot on 47k a year(level 8 flt lt/mid rate flying pay)
Equiv civvie job doing same job/less time away/more days off - 75-80k a year. Why do i stay - because to me the good bits still outweigh the bad.

Take fly pay away or relate it to hours flown = goodbye RAF, Hello airlines.
Airlines are very bouyant at the mo which is forecast to remain the same for at least the next 5 years.

Long and the short, I and the rest of us (aircrew as a whole) are bloody good value for money when you consider all the other crap we put up with as well as flying into the assorted crapholes on bliars world crusade.

This is in no way ment as a dig at you blogs - just saying how it is

Fact. End.

cutting through the c**p spouted. Aircrew get flying pay because its part of the deal... want some of it? Apply. In my opinion the deal needs to improve and quickly, cos skilled operators are walking :*

P.S Bl00dy well said Spiro

No one else noticed that blogger has blogged off?

He is hiding, probably fighting with his conscience about running a business allegedly turning over more than £60/yr in the Queen's time. Whilst complaining about others legally and fairly on an extra few quid a day for flying pay.

:rolleyes:

I think it's a deliberate wind up, chaps.

Gosh, that's more than tuppence an hour - he can't be be a pilot then!

Cheers

Whirls

Spiro - how on earth do you get by on that.... :E
incoming.....

Back in the days when I got flying pay I did manage to calculate an hourly rate - one month I got £1000 for a half hour start/stop (and one whole cct) so that must have been.......let me see.......need more fingers.......£2000 per hour. What tremendous value for money I was; even then........

quote: "Gosh, that's more than tuppence an hour - he can't be be a pilot then!
Cheers
Whirls."

Touche, Pussycat!
(Yep - I missed the 'k' out, just as bad as extra 'n' in.)

And definitely not an accountant, either! ;)

Look at the latest Chinook news and then tell me we shouldn't get flying pay. Seriously, try it and then wait whilst I send you a PM with a lot of words that sound like you clucking funt. Now why don't you all get back in your boxes and do your own f@@king jobs.
(Stand by for edit when I calm down, but don't hold your breath).

Thanks Guys
 

God Bless you all.:ok::ok: I haven't laughed at such sniping for yonks. We engineers used to say: "Flying can't be too difficult, if it was pilots wouldn't be able to do it". Nobody mentioned the ladies flying FJs either (or if they did my rheumy old eyes missed it).

Thanks for making Old Ned smile.:):)

Seriously Folks, you aircrew are certainly earning your flying pay good luck to you all. However, the question of flying pay on non-flying tours is interesting - perhaps a reduced rate might be in order.........?

We engineers used to get 7/6d per day Tech Qual Pay (38p for the youngsters), but it was stopped as a saving measure!!

(Bait floated, now feet up with cold beer waiting for a bite););)

(I just lurve these smilies)

blogger's second income
 

Funny enough Shytorque, the long-haired winco and I were saying the same thing when we read it.

Lets hope the taxman doesn't have a pprune login eh???

Old Ned, your tone suggests you are a nice bloke, so in the midst of my rage I will try and give you a straight answer.

Having done a non-flying but flying related tour I would have been p!ssed off in the extreme if my pay had been cut for doing a ground tour that I didn't really want to do, but that someone had to. I was lucky (!) enough to get posted into the job because I had worked hard and had all the quals you could get in my branch. So, the poster needed the job done, I fitted the bill and (shush, don't tell anyone) but I realised I might be able to do some good. Now, if the poster had told me, 'well done BootFlap, you have been selected to fill this post that also means, and you'll like this, you take a pay cut.......' the GPTN line may have mysteriously cut off to the ethereal sound of a gently exploding pilot extolling the virtues of PMA desk officers getting 'down and dirty' with their own arses! (For the colour blind, that's telling them to go and f@@k themselves!) Therefore, if you want experienced aircrew in these posts (and from experience, the presence of a friendly aircrew mate can save time and effort on many peoples parts) you cannot penalise them. If you do, they simply will not come! Therefore, some poor engineer will be stitched with doing an aircrew job. Now you may initially think, 'fantastic, not a snag'. However, I would argue this is akin to having an aircrew mate do the Eng Ops or Line Controller job, after all it is not actually engineering, is it? Or maybe, just maybe, the experience gained through training and hard work, in all trades/branches, means that all have something to offer, and the combined efforts make for a better result.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Now then, Flying Pay! Sorry, but this is market forces in its purest form. A short search on t'internet will give rough salary scales for any job out there. If you were brash enough to equate OC Supply to an Argos Store Manager (I know, i know, Argos actually delivers!) it will give you a rough idea of an equivalent wage outside. I will not give any more examples, because only you know your true worth (mine's 2 Magners and a knee trembler behind a 197x Viva E Coupe, but that's a different story!), but trust me the airlines and BAE are paying well. I don't want to leave, but after 21 years of near continual Ops my family wants cash! I will be sad if I do leave (still undecided) but I will not be bitter; I only wish others would accept the Force for what it is, and more importantly, what it should be, just a 'chuffing big Sqn'. Look after each other, accept we are different, get down the pub when able, tell jokes about non-PC birds with bad arthritis and get on with it.

Rant over, if I offend, I apologise. It's been a bad night.

If nothing else BootFlap, you've made me chuckle.

In agreement, smiling wide (but a little worried about the choice of vehicle for your knee-trembler.....have you considered Morris Marina at all?)

:ok:

Hmm,

Rewards for training received, Bit like my Trade group 11 LAC's SAC's going away for 10 weeks Trade Training to Trade Group 4 (or on benefits!), Be it at public/their own expense (after Jul), and guess what then receiving no pay incentive/increase at all, it would seem we are all being shafted by the beancounters. (Look at the PVR Rates at the Mo)

I am afraid that the RAF/ARMY/NAVY is on the rocky road to no where with all this in house Playground "My dad is bigger than your dad stuff"

Lets Just get on with what we have to do, and bring back the if you have done the course and got the Q annotation then lets pay you for it.

ZoFo,
in fairness I accept that your Dad is probably bigger than my dad (considering mine was reduced to his constituent parts by a 3000 deg C furnace several years ago and is now played for by my children bi-annually in a 'quick-cricket' tournament on the road outside my house, to the amusement of my US/AUS friends when I tell them 'the Ashes' are back in the UK!).
Also, with you on paying for Q-annotations! Hands up all QFIs and QWIs who'd agree to that!!!!!!!!!!! 'Two's in!'
:ok:
XFer, I always found the Viva to be surprisingly accomodating! The Marina was a little too bulky around the beam, but the Hillman Imp was without doubt a cheeky little number!

Another perspective - not PAYD but PAYF
 

17.21 Civilian Flight Observer's Allowance
An allowance for each hour in the air is to be paid to officers who are required to fly in an aircraft for the purpose of carrying out a particular task connected with the testing or trials of experimental, new, modified and repaired aircraft or equipment.

To receive the allowance an officer must be designated a Civilian Flight
Observer by the Head of Establishment or an officer not below Band C1 level or equivalent acting with his or her authority.

Positioning flights for the purpose of conducting tests from another airfield or site do not qualify for the allowance unless tests are carried out during such flights.

Prior approval of the Head of Establishment or the officer acting on his behalf is required for each flight or series of flights. The allowance will not be paid unless the flight clearly involves the performance of duties under difficult and exacting conditions, entailing a measure of increased personal responsibility.

Claims are to be submitted monthly to the paying officer on PPA Form 1941. The Certificate on the form is to be signed by an officer superior in rank to the claimant. The flying times for the month are to be aggregated and fractions of an hour paid as a full hour, e.g.. 12 flights with an aggregate flying time of eight hours and ten minutes count as nine hours.

The allowance may also be paid to members of the Photographer specialism
designated Civilian Flight Observers when engaged on flying duties involving
special features and extra personal responsibilities.

The official line used to be that FP was paid to keep military aircrew pay in line with their civilian counterparts. If that's the case, why isn't it much more?










PS. I didn't work very hard at school at all. I became a pilot through natural ability! :ok:

If you are saying that you should get flying pay because its dangerous, then I think that might piss off those on the ground who are getting shot at and mortared on a daily basis.

No Problem
 

BootFlap,

No offence taken at all. I was merely trying to lighten up the snorting. It is a fact of life, FP will always be paid, just as there'll always be the grumblers. The RAF is there to fly aircraft and we are (or in my case were) behind you guys and gels all the way.

By the way, thanks for biting!:D:D:D:D

Old Ned

@brit bus driver
How do i survive on 47k a year....simple, the missus earns way more than i do!!:}

Aaaahhhh.....wise words fella. :ok:

Well some nice comments on here I have come back too: Sorry I have been bidding for a contract and had to burn the midnight oil the last few days ..but good news I won the contract. It will keep me busy and the guy I employ, for many weeks to come.

So back to a few facts.

The VAT threashold is not £61K it's £64K if you were in business you would be aware of this.

£64K is a turnover (not Profit) line that makes a business become VAT registered. And fact I am well well above this in my my present floating 12 month period.

I find it sad that folks want to put someone down who has completed 25 years service (Gulf 2X etc). The fact that yes I am getting out I require to hit the road running not stall at the gate of the station on the way out like so many (god if I was sad I could always join an IPT as a civvy.)

After all is not the resettlement period 2 years .....Come on guys after 25 years return of service a few slack days at the end is not too much to ask for is it. Your turn will come.

As for running a business in the Queens time ..what the butt does that mean... I do my time at work and spend the spare time I do get preparing for getting out (thats dinner hour included (Moan I dont get a lunch break (its your right))) and every minute at home I get spare I work hard.

As a last comment on this subject one day you too will be either:
Kicked out of the RAF;
Your conscience will bring you to realise that Balirs wars are wrong;
You will be injured;
Or you choose to leave.

Just make sure that exit is is well planned because you are nobody the day you leave you make your own destiny and income in this world.

As for flying pay great you can keep it but how about changing it to represent the theatre of op's (danger pay if you like). Or the more you fly the more pay you get? Well that won't go down well I guess flying a desk is so much harder. However all I know is that right now I cant get out of the RAF soon enough its not the company I joined 25 years ago.

Good luck to you all on the inside and outside of the fence (when you jump it.)

As if ..... in your wet dreams........ See you at the show room and by the way it's going that could be quite soon. Enjoy.

Blogger
 

Blogger...

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x...7/lastweek.jpg

I do believe, and I don't think I will be alone here, that you are talking complete bo!!ocks. Many of the points you raise in your post have already been addressed in a mature and constructive manner.

Please take note.

OS

Where do I start?! Well, thanks Blogger for pointing out the massive difference in VAT thresholds. 3 whole thousand pounds....what's that, 20% of the top rate of flying pay?

Whoops, I mentioned flying pay, when this thread is clearly about your excellent business acumen and multiple-employee business. Well, multiple being two employees. Including yourself. Alan Sugar and Richard Branson won't be sleeping well tonight...

As for flying pay, yes I've reverted back to that subject; I remember a fishhead (that is, surface fleet, not RN aircrew)once telling me that aircrew don't get paid more, they just get paid quicker. Shows that the "ground" crew in the RN know the reason for flying pay, maybe our dear friend/ entrepreneur Blogger could benefit from a chat with them....or maybe not cos he is obviously a complete CU Next Tuesday...

As blagger is soon to leave the service and states he is quite happy to thumb his nose at the system I asked him in a previous post tell us his name so that we could verify his rather waltish claims and then stand in awe of his obvious business prowess...........

It came as no big surprise to me that no name came forth....... does anyone else smell bullsh1t:rolleyes:

Quote: As a last comment on this subject one day you too will be either:
Kicked out of the RAF;
Your conscience will bring you to realise that Balirs wars are wrong;
You will be injured;
Or you choose to leave.

You have missed option five.

Welcome to the real world outside, where flying pay isn't an issue.

BTW, what was your initial point? Looks like you are just aiming to create a bit more disgruntlement for those staying in.

Who on earth is Balirs? Do you mean Tony Blair? Or maybe you were referring to Hazel Blears?

Mods?????
 

Gentlemen, enough of the pi##ing competition.

How about putting similar effort in supporting something more useful such as the issue of Gurkha Tulbahadur Pun VC.

This flying pay thread shouldn't have got past the first few posts. Mods??:ugh:

Hello, the fun police have arrived.

Blogger,

I'm aircrew and here's my reply to your original post:
YES, it should be paid for hours flown ... happy ? Now pi$$ off you moron :ok:

ALL,

Please let this be the last entry on this post, cheers.

Why should you get the last word, you've only just joined.

Blogger
Should you really be on this thread without supervision and not taking your medication?
By the way, what is your mental age? If it's about 12, all is forgiven - now off to bed, there's a good boy - see you in the moaning!

Can I have the last word, instead? Oh please.
HKF

In a Geordie (Big Brother) accent, .... "Day 4, 1023 PM and blogger is still talking sh1te"

Samuraimatt,

My 2nd (vain) attempt to have the last word on this thread :)

Keep on trying............and it will always be in vein :E