Am I right in thinking that if the pointy end has a ski jump there will be no catapults there. There was a lot of speculation re EMALs being installed a couple of years back, have the Chinese decided it's too difficult or would they be content just to have catapults on the sticky out bit in the middle?

As per the report at the end; 01 is the first home built and stays with the technology they inherited; 02 is being built with EMAL catapults; 03 adds nuclear powered.

See post #21 for the sections of the hull for 02 with notches for the catapult.

I'll guess videos TERMINATED on page 2 of this thread were of LIAONING? Anyhoooooo...

LIAONING J-15 'Flying Shark' Flight Ops SCS January 2017

Hmmmm. This thread was begun in 2007 (now nearly a decade ago!) with the prediction of a home grown CVA by 2010. And seven years after the predicted date, still no operational home grown CVA. Clearly, building a CVA is a much more difficult undertaking than most folks appreciate. And then assuming that was done, equipping such a CVA with an air wing is also very difficult, and then actually operating the CVA and its embarked air wing effectively and safely is even more difficult. It'll be interesting to see how much money the Chinese will be willing to sink into this effort.

KenV: "It'll be interesting to see how much money the Chinese will be willing to sink into this effort."

My fairly confident prediction would be - as much as it takes.

"This thread was begun in 2007 (now nearly a decade ago!) with the prediction of a home grown CVA by 2010. And seven years after the predicted date, still no operational home grown CVA"

The F-35 thread is only 7 years old..........................

Heathrow Harry

It's coming though !! and quicker than our capability I think. But then that's what you can do when you are not bound by the niceties of democracy !!

Arc

and don't have to provide a cradle to grave social security programme..........

or bend in the breeze to every latest politicians whim...........or this weeks latest budget cutting idea

Arc

Two years from start to launch?

China's second aircraft carrier to be launched soon - CCTV News - CCTV.com English

China's domestically-made aircraft carrier is currently being fitted out and will soon be launched, according to a spokesperson from China's Ministry of National Defense, who gave no further details. The spokesperson, Wu Qian, made the response at a regular news briefing on Thursday in Beijing.

Earlier reports suggested that the carrier might be launched on April 23, when China celebrates the founding day of the Chinese navy. The Chinese defense ministry announced plans to construct the new aircraft carrier, built by China itself, in late December 2015........

Second carrier launched.

SNAFU!: China launches its 2nd carrier....

Love the patronizing comments on here about China and its shipbuilding.
We used to say the same about Japanese cars around about 1972 when the OK dealership started distributing them. Just before they utterly trounced us at making them and selling them. And they just got better and at it...
19th Century was Britain's and the 20th was the USAs. 21st is China's. So suck it up.

That's an interesting debate. On some accounting the age of empires is compressing and, in main part due due to the one child policy, Chnina compressed it into 2 decades - and is already into the Japanese syndrome of an aging population with no next generation to support them, let alone carry on expansion.

In that theory the rising nation is India, not China.

You gotta hand it to them ...
 

The enormous dry dock (1200 ft by 270ft) at Dalian, out of which they just floated the Type 001A Shandong CV17, did not exist ten years ago. In the last ten years, they built that dry dock from scratch, then used it to assemble at least two very large (1100 ft long) cargo ships, rework the Liaoning CV 16 and then assemble the Shandong. All since 2006.

The first Type 002 70,000 ton CV 18 (alleged steam catapults and arrester wires) is already in ‘recognisable shape’ in the 1150 by 300 ft Hudong-Zhonghua twin dry dock on the Huangpu river in downtown Shanghai.

There are three other bigger dry docks (up to 1800 ft by 380 ft) in operation at the Jiangnan shipyard on Changxing Island just across the Yangtse from Shanghai. I don’t think they existed twelve years ago. ............ You gotta hand it to them.

More pics here - China launches aircraft carrier, boosting military presence - BBC News

LFH

PLA Photoshop fail...

Oops! Chinese defence ministry?s PLA poster a big Photoshop fail | South China Morning Post

Oh dear! :ugh:

Breakthrough to power most advanced jet launch system on China’s second home-grown aircraft carrier

A technological breakthrough in naval propulsion will enable China’s second home-grown aircraft carrier to use the world’s most advanced jet launch system without having to resort to nuclear power, overcoming a huge hurdle in the vessel’s development, military sources said. The development of the integrated propulsion system (IPS) would allow the vessel to be more efficient, allowing more power for an electromagnetic catapult, rather than a less technologically advanced steam-driven catapult launch system, the sources said.

China’s first two carriers, the Liaoning and its sister ship, the Type 001A, are conventionally powered vessels equipped with Soviet-designed ski-jump launch systems. But an electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS) on the Type 002, China’s second home-grown aircraft carrier, would mean less wear and tear on the planes and allow more aircraft to be launched in a shorter time than the ski and steam-catapult systems. According to a source close to the People’s Liberation Army, China’s Central Military Commission was keen to use EMALS on the Type 002. “[But] the obstacle … was whether a conventionally powered carrier would be able to support EMALS, and now that problem has been solved,” the person, who is close to the PLA’s equipment department, told the South China Morning Post.

The solution was provided by a team led by China’s top naval engineer Rear Admiral Ma Weiming, which developed a medium-voltage, direct-current transmission network to replace an earlier system based on alternating current. As a result, the CMC, which is chaired by President Xi Jinping, has said the development of the Type 002, which had long been delayed, would get under way “soon”, the source said.

https://cdn3.i-scmp.com/sites/defaul...res_194219.jpg

Wang Ping, an expert in military technology at the Institute of Electrical Engineering under the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Beijing, said the innovative design meant that high-energy consuming launch systems and weapons could now be used on a vessel driven by conventional power. It wasn’t just a simple switch from alternating to direct current, but a complete overhaul of the energy supply and distribution system – from steam boilers to the energy storage device,” he said. Wang added that in the future, the same technology could be used to launch not just aircraft, but also missiles and satellites, and maybe even power high-speed trains.

A naval expert close to the carrier project confirmed that the CMC was now planning to proceed with the new power option. “China doesn’t need to copy the United States and use nuclear reactors to support EMALS and other energy-hungry weapons on the ship, because it now has more advanced technologies to solve the problem,” the naval expert said.... “China now has mature technologies … [and] the PLA is narrowing the gap with the US,” the naval expert said. He added that the US used an integrated propulsion system on its first USS Zumwalt-class destroyer, which was launched in 2013, but that it was not as advanced as the second-generation technology developed by Ma and his team.

In March, Ma, who is based at the PLA Naval University of Engineering in the central China city of Wuhan, told state broadcaster CCTV that the “ultimate aim” of his work on the IPS technology was to “solve the problem of deploying high-energy weapons” from ships. He also said on the sidelines of the annual National People’s Congress in Beijing that China’s EMALS technology was more advanced and more reliable than the system used on the nuclear-powered USS Gerald Ford supercarrier.

The world’s largest and most expensive super warship – and the first to use both EMALS and advanced arresting gear – completed its maiden arrested landing and launch operation in late July, a week after its commission to the US Navy.

makes sense - I'm sure that a decent trawl through all the published data plus a little bit of industrial espionage suggests that EMALS and a DC current system is a lower risk and can be achieved faster than trying to develop a bigger sea-going N power plant

Leave that to the submariners for now

I personally don't understand why a nuclear power plant is required for EMALS. EMALS was tested for years ashore with no nuclear plant. And current large civilian cruise ships generate huge amounts of electrical power for hotel services and propulsion without resorting to a nuclear power plant.

The main advantage of the nuke plants in US carriers is that the tankage used to store ship's propulsion fuel can instead be used to store aircraft fuel. They also allow the carrier to steam at sustained high speed for long distances to quickly arrive at a distant trouble spot without resorting to refueling enroute and arriving there ready to generate a large number of aircraft sorties.

And as an aside, the biggest reason US carriers are nuke powered is law. Congress passed a law in the 1970s mandating carriers be nuke powered.

Wow!!

I'll bet THAT lobbyist was able to retire a rich rich man................

Ken, I think that the biggest reasons are two: First Admiral Rickover, and then the law. :)

4 CBGs by 2030. 3rd as stated with EMALS, 4th is supposed to be nuclear.

China has started building its third aircraft carrier, military sources say

China started building its third aircraft carrier, with a hi-tech launch system, at a Shanghai shipyard last year, according to sources close to the People’s Liberation Army.

One of the sources said Shanghai Jiangnan Shipyard Group was given the go-ahead to begin work on the vessel after military leaders met in Beijing following the annual sessions of China’s legislature and top political advisory body in March. “But the shipyard is still working on the carrier’s hull, which is expected to take about two years,” the source said. “Building the new carrier will be more complicated and challenging than the other two ships.”......

The sources all said it was too early to say when the third vessel would be launched, but China plans to have four aircraft carrier battle groups in service by 2030, according to naval experts.

Shipbuilders and technicians from Shanghai and Dalian are working on the third vessel, which will have a displacement of about 80,000 tonnes – 10,000 tonnes more than the Liaoning, according to another source close to the PLA Navy. “China has set up a strong and professional aircraft carrier team since early 2000, when it decided to retrofit the Varyag [the unfinished vessel China bought from Ukraine] to launch as the Liaoning, and it hired many Ukrainian experts ... as technical advisers,” the second source said.

The sources also confirmed that the new vessel, the CV-18, will use a launch system that is more advanced than the Soviet-designed ski-jump systems used in its other two aircraft carriers. Its electromagnetic aircraft launch system will mean less wear and tear on the planes and it will allow more aircraft to be launched in a shorter time than other systems.

The latest aircraft carrier project has been in the pipeline for some time. Satellite images taken back in 2009 showed a huge frame had been installed at the Shanghai shipyard to accommodate large-scale projects. That year, its general manager Nan Daqing told Shanghai Dragon TV the company was “fully prepared” to build the country’s first home-grown aircraft carrier....

http://alert5.com/wp-content/uploads...4308941_n1.jpg

Sources said the layout of the new aircraft carrier, including its flight deck and “island” command centre, would be different from the other two. “The new vessel will have a smaller tower island than the Liaoning and its sister ship because it needs to accommodate China’s carrier-based J-15 fighter jets, which are quite large,” the first source said. “It has been suggested that they look to Britain’s warship, the HMS Queen Elizabeth, which has two small tower islands on the deck. That would create more space for the runway and aircraft, but no final decision has been made yet.”

China’s navy has meanwhile begun training its own fighter pilots, rather than recruiting them from the air force, as it prepares to expand the fleet, the official PLA Daily reported.

Guess who's coming to dinner.

Well that's the idea. But in practice the carrier has to hang around for its escorting fleet (it's a bit vulnerable without it), and runs out of food and aviation fuel anyway.

There's a big trade off between the size of a nuke plant and the size of a gas turbine plant. A nuke plant is quite large, with quite a large steam section, large wet turbines. Gas turbines are quite small and compact and lightweight, leaves a lot of room for fuel which is anyway the same stuff as the aircraft are using, or can be. So no need for separate fuel bunkerage. RN helos run on marine diesel.

If the carrier has to regularly RAS for food and fuel, it may just as well take on more fuel to move the ship too. That was the RN's conclusion. I recall a lot of discussion as to whether the new carriers should be nuclear powered, but it just didn't seem to be worth it. About the only thing it brings is the ability to run away jolly quickly for a long time, leaving everyone else behind.

However if you're prepared to let the carrier operate more independently of an escorting fleet then the long legs of a nuke does help. The newer USN carriers are larger, and have a lot more storage, probably for more of this type of operation.

Fairly sure they use AVCAT and the ships use marine diesel. Certainly had a separate tank for the AVCAT on any ship I've been on.

Hmm, I believe that was slightly tongue in cheek - the QE is driven by RR MT30 gas turbines - 80% common with the Trent 800 on the Boeing 777.....

.............even if they are not ‘gold-plated’......

Indeed, China has always subscribed to the ‘throw away', 'one time use', and 'human wave/life(Chinese)' is cheap and expendable.

And why like ants they will probably end up ruling the world.

Just glad I won’t be around.

With regard to carrier aviation, it is pretty complex,and the USN has around a 100 years prior hard-won experience, paid for in blood, so the Chinese will have just a little catching up to do, which no doubt they will.

Interesting to see that they are copying US procedures, but then that is sensible.

An interesting thing about that picture is the container ship being built alongside. Look at the container slots, ten containers wide. Multiply by six, seven or eight containers high and you have a rough idea how many it will take.

Ships of that size and construction require to carry containers all the time. Full or empty they are part of the structural integrity.

I am waiting for the all-the-time autoland and the UAVs to show up. Either with the second or third ship.

Most western military ships are designed to use Naval Distilllate Fuel (NDF), also known as NATO F-76. All such vessels can also be fueled by JP-5, (NATO F-44, known in the UK as DEF STAN 91-86 AVCAT/FSII.) JP-5/F-44 has about a 5% lower energy density than F-76. So while diesel engines can use either fuel interchangeably, the diesel engine will produce about 5% less power when running on JP-5.
Most land-based military aircraft use JP-8 (NATO F-34, British Defense Standard 91-87).

FWIW, F-76 has a very tight specification that includes a high storage stability test. Commercial marine/diesel fuel must be carefully rotated to ensure it is used before it becomes unstable. F-76 is "guaranteed" stable to a minimum of 24 months.

Not just the MT30 marine gas turbines. QE is also powered by diesels (4 × Warsila 38 marine diesels). She normally cruises on just the diesels for economy, but can quickly fire up the marine gas turbines when additional power is required. (for example, generating "wind over the deck" on a still air day.)

China prepares aircraft carrier for sea trial

China's first domestically built carrier, known as the Type 001A, is undergoing preparations for its first sea trial, while discussions about its name show that Chinese people hold high expectations of the carrier's ability to resolve the Taiwan question.

According to the latest online photos from the Dalian Shipbuilding Industry Company (DSIC) construction site in Liaoning Province, where the carrier was launched and outfitted, the scaffolds on the carrier have been completely removed, and a phased array radar has been installed. "All the equipment and devices on the carrier are in the joint debugging stage, and the main engine has been powered. In 2018, we will present a surprise to the Chinese people," DSIC Chairman Liu Zheng said, according to a report on cctv.com, the official website of China Central Television, on March 13........

"This all proves that the Type 001A is getting ready for its first sea trial, and the exact timing will depend on factors like the weather and sea conditions. April 23 is Navy Day, the founding day of the PLA Navy [April 23 1949], so this might also be taken into consideration," Li Jie, a Beijing-based naval expert, told the Global Times on Tuesday. "After the sea trial, which normally takes about 6-12 months, it will be ready for delivery to the PLA Navy, so it's very likely we will see the carrier enlisted by the end of 2018," said Song Zhongping, a military expert and TV commentator.

Full speed

The Type 001A was launched in Dalian on April 26 2017, three days after Navy Day, and the outfitting work only took about one year. The speed with which the Type 001A was built was the fastest in the history of aircraft carrier construction, as it only took two years from the laying of the foundation in the shipyard to its launch, and more importantly, everything from the ship's body to its devices is domestically built, Liu said. "The quality of our construction is also world-class. For example, the world-class standard for the flatness of the flight deck is not more than 4 percent, and we made it lower than 3 percent," Liu noted.

All in the name

During the Two Sessions, Yuan Maorong, an NPC deputy from Taizhou city, East China's Zhejiang Province, suggested naming the carrier "Wei Wen", after a military general from the Three Kingdoms period (AD 184/220-280) who was the first man in history to arrive at Taiwan, according to cctv.com on March 13. Yuan said naming the carrier Wei Wen would show the historical fact of Taiwan being an integral part of China, and push the development of Cross-Straits relations.

The discussion of how the ship should be named has also been spreading in social media. Many Chinese netizens suggested simply naming the carrier "Taiwan," while others suggested naming it "Shi Lang", an admiral who recaptured Taiwan for the Qing Dynasty. "This displays the high expectations among the Chinese people over solving the Taiwan question, because they want the country to use the first domestically built aircraft carrier as a symbol to announce its determination and ability to achieve this aim, and also send a tough warning signal to the secessionists in Taiwan," Li noted.

However, the carrier is not targeting Taiwan, according to a military expert from a Beijing-based military academy who requested anonymity. He explained that if Beijing decided to use military measures to solve the Taiwan question, the PLA is fully capable of doing so without an aircraft carrier, and Type 001A was made for a greater purpose.

"The PLA Navy has regulations for naming large vessels like aircraft carriers, which generally use the names of provinces and municipalities," Song said. "Liaoning is primarily a platform for training personnel and collecting data through testing, while Type 001A is China's first carrier made for combat missions, so its name could be more special. It's impossible to name it with a person's name, for only vessels used for scientific research can use a person's name in China," said the anonymous military expert.

CVA-2 starts sea trials.

http://alert5.com/2018/05/13/watch-t...craft-carrier/

well they are the most populous country in the world and will be one of the richest over the next few decades - not a surprise TBH

THE question is will the US be able or willing to keep building replacement "Fords" to keep the current forces in up to scratch.................... they don't come cheap.....

While original post is 5 plus years old it actually does hit the button right on the head in 2 ways.

Yup flood an area with missiles such that overcome any defence of missile.

Second stage is use of drone technology with disposable drones, thousands of them that have enough power to last for 6-12 hours plus. Thousands of tiny single drones with a tiny charge that are all around a carrier makes a complete suspension of air operations inevitable. But at least a carrier can steam away and hopefully get out of range. These would be like flying cluster bomb, that sanitise an area from major air operations.

Drill it back and think land based operations and imagine release of thousands of them around a base where refuelling aircraft are or anything else that is critical you need in the air. A drone does not need to be powerful but ingest one into an engine or crack a screen and base then is just a parking lot.

I believe the US biggest threat over next 25 years is Internal not External.

LOL you know exactly what I mean.

1911 Anti Trust broke up SOHIO, another case is needed on the Net giants.