Save The Red Arrows - Sign the Petition
 

SAVE THE RED ARROWS

The Red Arrows aerobatic squadron of the Royal Air Force brings huge pride and international prestige to the UK, but the Treasury bean-counters in our beloved Government want to axe the Reds to save a couple of shillings.

The personnel, pilots and aircraft of the squadron are all capable of deployment elsewhere in the RAF, so the money really saved would be peanuts.

Cynics might observe that the move is a covert campaign to expunge from the public mind a potent and highly visible symbol of the very best of the Royal Air Force as an independent Air Arm of a United Kingdom giving up its identity to Europe...

10 Downing Street website has an online petition (which is seldom mentioned to the public in the hope that it will be overlooked).

Please sign it. Don't let the b*stards get away with this.

Mods, any chance that this can have "sticky status" for a while?

Had a look on the No 10 website for "further information" in relation to this particular petition :

Looks like a pretty good petion to sign for anyone who deeply abhors the steep decline the country has suffered under the present "New Labour" terror and who remembers a time of collective and justified pride in the nation.

It was on Radio Lincolnshire this morning. The District Council is saying it would be bad for tourism and jobs.

Thank you HC. I have now signed up.

Actually don't believe the Reds are in real danger. Their disbandment is regularly put into the estimates as an alternative assumption, but that means nothing really. The savings would be negligeable and the negative fall-out collossal so there is no way they will be taken. That is until their Hawks need replaceing. Then there will be a real punch-up.

If scrapping the Red Arrows would ensure that some poor squaddie would get some extra equipment it would get my vote. As for the statement that nothing would be saved by scrapping them, how about the amount of fuel consumed punching holes in the sky, engineers who could be used on a squadron short of manpower and the aircraft and spares used where they would have some purpose.

haltonapp

I think that most people would like the “Dear Leader”, Tony, to honour his recent words in respect of operations in Afghanistan and, we hope, in respect of provision for all the Armed Services’ commitments, and ensure that every “poor squaddie would get some extra equipment”.

Unfortunately, he’s beholden to Iron Chancellor Brown (on account of the fact he didn’t have the guts to go through a leadership contest in the mid ‘90’s and relied on the cosy Granita Agreement with Gordon to see him through). As a presumed graduate of a fine Service training institution, as implied by your title, I know that you will realized that we have a Chancellor whose track record indicates, at best, antipathy towards the Armed Services and, furthermore, a willingness to seize any opportunity to “salami slice” funding to any Arm of the Services. Hence, any “savings” would not head towards the “poor squaddie” but would route direct to the Treasury coffers (to be thence poured down the financial black holes of Gordon’s favoured “voting fodder” staffed Departments).

Meanwhile, the RAF has to continue attracting recruits, maintain an independent presence with a wind blowing in a “service amalgamation” direction and attempt continuation of a fine tradition of demonstrable Service, National and International excellence, for which we will all be the poorer when another wonderful icon has tragically and willfully been obliterated.

Finally, I do believe that, as either current or ex-service personnel, we are all on the same side here. Whatever the exigencies of present-day service or the recent memories of arduous and dangerous times, the distaste for modern day corrupt and incompetent politicians or the political distancing which we may individually feel towards the Iraq adventure, we all, at one time, felt pride and affection for our particular Service. A vote in this petition is a demonstration to ourselves, as much as to our worthless politicians, that we believe in something intrinsically superb and representative of a great nation, even if they are too stupid to believe in it themselves.

Do you want an air force or an aerobatics team? because there hasn't been sufficient funding for both for a number of years now.

I have to agree with haltonapp and I won't be signing.

Accepting the reduced level of display, the only circumstances under which I would support the saving of the RAFAT would be if the jets came off the line at Valley and the pilots were all QFIs.

The Yellow Helicopters generate more positive PR than the Red Arrows and they do something usefull at the same time.

Professional Student

OK, it’s been on before, but a bit of a re-run won’t do any hard will it? Might even get a few more votes for what many would think is a very worthy cause.

Incidentally, Max Contigency, you say, “Do you want an air force or an aerobatics team?”. Maybe you could indicate what proportion of the total flying hours task and budget allocation the Reds take up, compared with the rest of the Air Force? Could be the answer might indicate your question is a red herring. Similarly, “there hasn't been sufficient funding (for both)" seems to lend weight to highcirrus’ posting above.

Guess i will join the "No" vote.

Bullets and Body Armour Vs smoke trails in the sky.....

No contest,

Sorry

The SAR helo force is being dumped.
If we can't afford to keep something worthwhile like that why should we keep
a display team???:confused:
Definitely a 'No' vote

Hear, hear HighCirrus

Well, I must admit I am astounded!

Tell you what, I have another proposal. Let's keep the Red Arrows and bin the rest of the Air Force, because if you lot and those drivelling idiots on the J vs K thread are representative of it, then it is a total waste of everything and is self-destructing anyway.

Give me strength!

TV News, Look North, suggested the Reds might be moving









to Waddo!

Saving the Glory boys is indeed commendable, but without a

"I DON'T WANT TO SAVE THE REDS"

petitition, our slimy government will get away with it.


ie. Suppose 1 million people sign the Downing St site's petition to save the Reds ... TB, in justification of his decision to scrap them, will point out that approx 59 million either don't want them or couldn't be @rsed to log on. He may even cut the 59m down, taking into a/c kids and non-internet able people and still claim that only 1 in 20 of the UK public want to keep the Reds.

AL1 to the above ref to TB's decision .... obviously he'll make someone else make the decision, after a one-sided, pre-determined inquiry led by a Red Arrows skeptic which recommends ditching them.



One-sided petitions are fine, but they don't mean a thing to this lot (look at the Countryside Alliance!). Also take a look at his response to the 'Save Northolt's Heritage' response - basically, "We agree with you, the British People, about historical preservation, so we've made the RAF choose which two bits of the station they want to keep and which they would like us to bulldoze."


ps. My reference to the Countryside Alliance is illustrative only - I'm with the foxes on that issue!!

Haltonapp's right - we are in the AIR FORCE after all. We should be SAVING the fuel, not using it!

If only he could comprehend how much gets used by some of the other fleets, ...... he'd be aircrew !!
3 mins of Tornado 'burner = a whole Reds sortie!!

Just to fly the flag for a mo', UK business generated by the Red Arrows displays worldwide probably far exceeds the cost of fuel, maybe even of running the unit, but these figures are I'm sure, unavailable.

And as a 2nd stab at the RAFAT cash cow, the Reds' prescence at UK air shows generates a massive income for many UK traders and organisers (who typically try to put them on last so they can milk the "British People" for as much as poss).


All 85 of them ...? How many excess engineers are in stupid, non essential jobs around the RAF? Tons.


Does the Hawk have a spares problem? Never heard of that one. You should have been on a Tornado squadron !!

What Ever happened to Loyalty
 

All you muppets who say no to the Reds..:ugh: :ugh: please hand in your PVr and go join the Army. We should be asking for a increase in the budget, not cuts!! You joined the RAF, have some loyalty. HaltonApp and ProStudent, please can I know your respective trades, so I start a petition to have your jobs removed to Quote' Get Bullets and Body Armour' to the squaddies. Yes, I may have bitten, but my God GET ON SIDE:mad: :mad:

I honestly don't think its a question of misguided loyalty.

Yes we should be asking for a (MASSIVE) increase in the budget, but do you honestly think TB and the rest of the incompetents would dare allow it, there are far more deserving causes, but that's for another debate!

As it seems certain, like night follows day, that we will again be seeing both budget cuts and rising costs, I feel that we have to do the best with what little we have.

If that means the end of the red PR machine (and I am a fan of them) Then so be it. We MUST be realistic and spend where it is needed most, and that, in these troubled times is supporting the front line troops of allthree services.

Why didn't i think of that! Of course, all we need is an increase in budget, then we can afford an aerobatics team.

Heres the plan:
I'll pop up to Main Buiding and explain that the British taxpayer will just have to dig a little deeper. If that doesnt work, then I'll just ask for some money to be diverted away from Education, Health or other such nonsense, after all it would be going into Defence..... Oh no hold on aerobatics aren't really defence are they. Oh damn, just when the plan was really coming together.
:rolleyes:

Roguedent

Hang on a mo! I'm on the Sparrows' side. I just didn't see he point in having 2 petitions running when efforts can be focussed on just1 and have more names on that.

As has been well discussed on the other thread, the Reds cost around £5-6M a year, which is really a drop in the ocean for HM Gov plc. It wouldn't even pay for some black tape around some civil servants' telephones or more than a few chairs or desks in Main Building. And if they were chopped, would that £5-6M really be spent on boots and bullets and guns for our front line troops? Really? If you think the answer is "yes", then you're more naive than I thought you were.

There are fewer and fewer symbols that project the armed forces into the public eye these days (at least in a positive sense). Whilst guys are showing utmost bravery on the ground, that doesn't recruit people. The Reds, the Blue Eagles and the RN Historic Flight (they're still up and running aren't they?) don't just recruit pilots. They get people through the doors of the AFCO, and in this day and age when joining the Forces seems anathema to young people, that can only be a good thing.

£5-6M is small fry on the big scheme of things and probably more successful than "You don't have to fly to be in the RAF" and "My job's more important than yours, stick monkey" (sorry Navy).

If it was a plain choice between the Red Arrows and guns and bullets, then I would be signing up to the "Bin the Red Arrows" petition faster than you could say "Diamond Nine". But it's not. Gordon Brown will take the money and give it to some lesbian extremists "asylum seeker" to buy a house and ship the rest of their families over.

So, Red Arrows or more asylum seekers? The choice is yours.

Personally I dont think they are that good.;)

Could we outsourse it o a civilian contractor or maybe use one of the good Yank teams.:confused:

Radio 5 Live - 13 Feb
 

Nicky Campbell interviewing some politcal expert about Downing St petitions ...

"Do politicians ever take any notice of online petitions where protesters just tick a box?"

No.

"Which is more influential? Column inches in the press, or a petition?"

Definitely column inches, without a doubt. Politicians live by the press and, rightly or wrongly, react to press pressure.



Online petition = wasted time - put your efforts into a more public campaign and shame them into keeping the Reds. Or just pay to have 'The Blades' painted red and pass them off as an RAF asset ...

I think I've spotted your problem there wee one...:E

But what about this...

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...9/astyraba.jpg

threepointonefour

Not too sure that you are correct when you say “Online petition = wasted time”. This from the Telegraph seems to say differently.

If anyone really wants to sign a petition that will increase pressure on Bliar’s “government”, check out here and make your mark!

From the website.

Could be this one's worth signing?

AP75,

I can go with you to some degree, but think back to the the much PROMISED Euro referendum ...

Everyone knows that the VAST majority want it. There have been petitions, protests and letters. And yet we still have yet to see it, even tho we were told it would be in this governmental term.


All public opinions can all be ignored or rubbished - the spread was not representative etc etc. They'll ask emotive questions when the time is right like,

"Would you rather spend £30m over the next 5 yrs on your local hospital or on maintaining the Red Arrows?"

or

"Disbanding the Red Arrows will save £30m over the next 5 yrs which will equip all our soldiers in Iraq with body armour. Would you prefer body armour for our troops or the Red Arrows?"



The right outcome from a pre-determined review will always be followed. And if by some fluke, the outcome isn't desired, they'll even rubbish their own inquiry (as they did recently). And should they not go so far as trashing it, they'll "interpret" it differently.

Should they decide to keep the Reds, THEY will announce it as thought they've saved a dodo (sorry about the analogy) from extinction. "Aren't we the saviours?"

My point is that they'll do what they want. We are not yet at the US stage of cash driven politics (I said, "yet") and so the comparison is a little premature.


sincerely,

Disillusioned.

I had to sit thru an EO day at a secret Lincs trg base recently ...

We all had keypads and had to answer Qs pesented on screen. The presenter asked a question,

Q5. What is the highest female ranking officer in the RAF?
a. AM b. AVM c. AC d. Gp Capt


He then told us the answer (for those of us that didn't know),

A. I recall it was Gp Capt (as the Air Cdre was retiring).

... and subsequently twisted the next question's result.


Q6. How long before we see a female officer become CAS?
a. Never b. At least 25 yrs c. Within 10 yrs d. Within 5yrs

Obviously, given timescales of the aforementioned newly promoted Gp Capt, answers c & d were out, meaning that we all answered b or a.



Interpretation: over 90% of RAF personnel believe it will be at least 25 yrs
before the service is led by a woman.


It's all about what you ask and how you leave the question open for interpretation. Sometimes, the answer is irrelevant.

"over 90% of RAF personnel believe it will be at least 25 yrs
before the service is led by a woman."

Breathes BIG sigh of relief ;)

I liked the "Why do you think that there aren't more homosexuals in the RAF?" question. I think that asking a group of civilian homosexuals why they haven't joined would elicit a more suitable response.

Coincidently, of the 80 or so guys in my brief, there were about 30 bisexuals and 30 homosexuals. I can only assume that the other 19 were dog f@ckers, but that wasn't an option?!

PS Sign this petition whilst you're at it:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Workcamps/

Only 19 signatures so far :{

Ratty, I went for trisexual: I will try anything sexual :p

This is a gen dit...I recall (about 25 years ago) sitting in Shareholders when the AEO stood up and announced that women had been accepted as Engineers......the CO stood up at the end and said "Don't worry boys, there is no way I am going to allow any women to maintain the aircraft I fly in".....Absolutely gen......

.... You couldn't make it up could you ?

That's what I like about PPRUNE, after a page of posts the initial thread is lost!

I cant vote for it, as some have said the reds Pr machine gets people into the Afco's front door whereas operational stuff doesn't!
Well chaps and chappesses where do you think you will be going if you get in?
The reds is full of tossers who think they are the ultimate, poncing about in open top classic sports cars, shades on and their pristine Armani flying suits on, even the groundies on the "circus" as it is known love themselves and look down on any other groundie fortunate enough to not wear the blue overalls!!
Am sure they do bring a certain ammount of trade to Uk but doubt it's that much! would prefer to see them on the frontline earning their keep with the rest of us instead of mincing about.

Not true. Any of it.

A popular view, but having been fortunate enough to fly with them a number of times, and knowing a good few of them, the vast majority of air and ground crew are excellent value for the tax payers money. they get asked to do more and more each year to justify their existence, and their schedules get busier and busier while they put their personal lives on hold and yet they still manage to sign kiddies autographs at airshows.

That kind of publicity is hard to come by.

Just a thought people, the next time the Sparrows come over, especially if its a none airfield show, don't watch them, watch the people around you. Even the most non avaition person will stop and gawk. Ask some passing herbert in the street, he won't know a tornado from a milk float but he will probably know what the Sparrows are.
Yes, I do know the crews can be a bunch of posers but so what, Mozart was a complete pillock. The performance they put on is a work of art and should be preserved as such. I am deadly serious in saying that they are just as much a part of British culture as Big Ben, a Constable painting or a poem by Sassoon.
A civilised country is judged by its culture, is it humane, does it produce things that are worthy and inspiring. Something is not always the sum of its costs, sometimes it is greater than that. And the Arrows are part of that, they are the best in the world. Yes they are a luxury maybe even an indulgence but so is all art.
It shouldn't be about hospitals or Arrows, we need both.

Err...toddbabe, we didn't ...."think".... we were the ultimate (formation aerobatic team), we were the ultimate (formation aerobatic team), and still are, so , get off the computer and **** off back to the frontline and 'earn yer medal'. By getting personal you reveal yourself to be a **** (Nark).

nurj :}

Omnia mea mecum porto , but not in your case, toddbabe. :=

As a father who has a lad serving in Iraq with 24Rgt RA in Baghdad, then yes I want him to have the best kit available, instead of me and his mom having to pay for basic kit! But it was a visit to RAF Cosford Airshow that got him interested in the military after he saw the REDS. Those of you who think that the "savings" will be spent elsewhere within the MOD are quite obviously deluded. It is part of our history. I was pissed off when some of our regiments were stood down or "merged" to enable defence costs to be better used. Yeah like that has really had a profound impact on funding our boys in an illegal war with decent protection. :ugh:

3.14 it is true I used to be based alongside them many moons ago I am not going along with some wider held view from people that have never met them.
They were and still are posers that are not contributing anything to the front line where we need bods the most.
Don't give me they are busy! they ought to try living in a tent six months of the year and do some operational flying where the only people interested in watching you are trying to shoot you and not with a bloody camera:mad:.
Busy claiming expenses and playing golf with their nice shiny sponsored clubs that they all got, more like!
Don't get me wrong given the choice I would rather play golf (Not with them) and not go to the desert for half the year but I wouldn't expect the tax payer to pay for it, I would like them too but with everyone else getting the **** end of the wedge why should they be any different?
Pure indulgence.
Good riddance.

Cast the line...I can see that worm...gonna bite...
Toddbabe, I realy can't see your point. I have been on ops with at least one of this years team, and I think you'll find most present team members have been involved on ops in the last ten years. Times they are a changing.:eek:
Perhaps there are some sour grapes somewhere?:confused:

I don't get your point either. You say you knew them many moons ago but claim that the current members are posers and tossers? How so?

For anyone that can make it, go and spend a day with them on one of their many In-Season Practice days (invariably at a weekend) and watch how they interact with the many members of the public that they invite. Watch the children's (future pilots) faces. See how their parents look at the guys with respect for their attitude to the young, old and infirm guests. So what if they 'pose' at airshows?

They are fallible, but that doesn't mean they're worthless. How else can you keep the military in the public's eye for a few million each year? By keeping them in peoples faces, we are all constantly reminded of the fact that we have actually got a military. From this base we can then lobby the fools on the hill for better equipment for those frontline troops/aircrew etc.

And as has been mentioned - ALL the guys have experienced of frontline 'ops', non more so than the Harrier pilots in Afghanistan. We've all done 'ops' of one kind or another, so if all you really want is a contest then why not direct your attention to asking why there are 60+ Gp Capts in MoD or 30+ at Wyton?

Don't get me started on the Air Officer thing:=.
Am not really bothered whether they stay or go just can't see why were getting so excited about it when their is far more too worry about in this shambles of an Airforce.
Have in the past enjoyed the displays thet they put on and they probably are the best in the world but to me they are still a luxury that in times of conflict aren't really a priority.
We have critical shortages in manpower in certain areas which mean that others have to spend increased times away on ops away from their families at increased levels of risk.
Yes of course they have all probably done ops recently (ish) but that isn't the point in this case, they aren't being gainfully employed supporting ops or training their replacements on the front line or even doing some related admin job.
My main argument is that if this tinpot Government is going to strip us of lots of other benefits,financial as well as professional and logistical then really why are we so bothered about a flying club for posers?