Night trg w/o lights
A Puma has just beetled past over my house without any sort of lighting (in the dark, naturally). Is this allowed, or did he perhaps have a problem? I thought lights off training was only in segregated areas - or should I be looking more carefully out of my PA28 at night..?
Tim |
Who is more of a fool, the Puma driver at night or the PA-28 driver at night?
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It's the latest in a series of energy saving moves by the helicopter fleet to claw back some vital overspend. Next on the agenda is only using those rotating thingys above the driver's head for 50 seconds of every minute. Should result in a significant fuel saving. And if you leave anything made of kevlar back in the cupboard, there is a significant weight saving too!!!:eek:
Rumours that we are just shouting 'BANG' at the enemy have so far, been proven unfounded.:bored: MOG:cool: PS. The above ain't true...I think!!! |
Who is more of a fool, the Puma driver at night or the PA-28 driver at night? |
.....if it was dark and he was 'dark', how do you know what it was?
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Flying at night w/o lights ok if in close/trail formation. Someone in the formation must carry the 'flash' at all times.
That's what we work to in my world anyway. :cool: |
Many moons ago when 18 Sqn flew proper helicopters the then Boss ( White Tornado) decided that the whole squadron would return to Big G at night with no lights. A night stream navex was worked out with a/c leaving from their flight hides at 5 min intervals about 16 helicopters in total.
This seemed a fine idea:eek: All went well and I didn't see another helicopter until I arrived at Big G - the scary bit was although we left the exercise area in the order Pegasus 1-16 we didn't arrive at Big G in that order:E HF |
Aaaah memories!
Whatever happened to the 'White Tornado'? |
Puma Lights
Tim,
Hi ya check ur PMs Neil |
.....if it was dark and he was 'dark', how do you know what it was? There were plenty of other ac around but he wasn't in formation - I saw him clearly against an otherwise empty patch of sky. There was nothing within, say, 1/4 mile in any direction, except possibly astern of him, but surely it's the lead who keeps lights on? Tim |
Originally Posted by tmmorris
(Post 3070873)
There was nothing within, say, 1/4 mile in any direction, except possibly astern of him, but surely it's the lead who keeps lights on?
Tim Not nessecelery. Let's just say that at least one of the formation will have lights on.:ok: |
Originally Posted by tmmorris
(Post 3070873)
but surely it's the lead who keeps lights on?
Originally Posted by tmmorris
(Post 3070873)
There were plenty of other ac around but he wasn't in formation
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Tim - I suspect the only problem the Plastic Pig driver had was not knowing where the light switch was - or how it operated possibly?
Re: the WT - he didn't make it to any of the 18(B) Sqn reunions that he was invited to - not sure why. No doubt he has retired on the proceeds of his time with Annington Homes |
Chaps,
Not wishing to teach people to suck eggs but it is perfectly legal to fly lights out at night - and as a singleton - as long as you NOTAM the route. Then every other low level air user should know you are about and avoid you. This applies to dedicated user areas as well just in case someone mentions that next. Of course he might just have not put them on by accident! It does happen! Dooh, mmmnice got that bit out before me |
So -
What does a police or SAR pilot do? Cancel a priority task because someone is NOTAM'd to be training, lights out, in the area that they need to operate in? |
Nope...they're a category A flight, therefore have priority over just about everything else in the sky.
|
Absolutely Right
But, Does the lights-out training flight pilot know that the police/SAR aircraft is there, probably not! Is he/she on the same frequency, probably not! Can the police/SAR pilot see the lights-out aircraft, probably not! |
Originally Posted by 360BakTrak
(Post 3072487)
Nope...they're a category A flight, therefore have priority over just about everything else in the sky.
Actually Cat B for most of the time, to reduce inconvenience to fellow aviators. .....as much as we would like priority at all times lol TFC |
.....can the mil 'lights-out' aircraft see the lights of the police/helimed heli? Probably.
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When I first flew the Puma we always had Nav lights on, day and night. Now this was in the days when we did lots of night work, but didn't do much NVG (you know when the auth sheet was filled up with all the guff out of GASOs about exactly what you were going to do!)
Anyway, in everything I've flown since (fixed wing) I have always felt the desire to do the same, ie Nav lights on day and night. I'm frequently told that they should not be used during the day; is this correct? Having observed other fleets there appears to be a bit of a mix. Most of the Tonkas that I see during the day do have Nav lights on. :) |
360BakTrak
True, but what if the police/SAR aircraft is approaching the lights-out aircraft from the rear? Who would be held to blame should a collision or airprox occur? H Peacock There is nothing in aviation law that prevents you from displaying nav lights by day. It is a very sensible flight safety precaution, particularly in dull weather conditions. It also stops you forgetting to switch them back on at dusk. There are, however, some cheapskate operators that encourage their crews not to use them in order to save light bulbs. |
It's certainly a tricky one......I would suppose the one with the better lawyer!:} I would suspect until something serious happens, nothing will get down about avoiding such a scenario.
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Lights out in the dark? Must have been a woman pilot! If they fly like they drive they are always the last folk to put on their lights as darkness falls:ok:
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Interesting thread, couple of thoughts;
Hopefully the lights out aircraft would be squawking so the Police helo would at least have a chance of picking him up on TCAS if not visual. Also, if operating in an area of regular military helo activity, a call to the ATC unit working the mil traffic (if known) would help, e.g. LFA10 / Wattisham. LXGB |
And you can operate lights out if NOTAMd. Ergo, you should know roughly where the no lights ac is (as the route and timings are in the NOTAM). Plus it is likely that a civvy would be talking to ATC - especially the polizei as they'll want any traffic info (you would hope). I know our cousins at Mildenhall often go cross-country sans lights and they're always NOTAMd - I know my eyes were always out on stalks and I'd be talking to ATC if I was in their vicinity.
So... If the aircraft with lights hit the ac without lights from behind, the former is at fault. Providing he/she had read the NOTAMs. And if they didn't read them, samey same. |
Close study of NOTAMs certainly happens at a certain Police/AA unit somewhere between Lyneham and Salisbury Plain. That unit also possesses mapping showing standard military routes/corridors. I suspect that if I was behind a lights-out a/c on my occasional shifts there, then:
a. I probably wouldn't have much, if any, overtake speed on most military helis. b. I would probably be at least 300 feet higher than that heli, and c. The light from my anti-colls (I'd even consider white strobes if near a NOTAM'd route, task permitting) would still be evident to him/her even though I'm in his/her high 6. All of which makes it an acceptable risk to my crew and me in our public service aircraft, so I'm happy to continue to share the same airspace. Thanks for your concern. |
Professional Student
you should know roughly where the no lights ac is as the route and timings are in the NOTAM LXGB the Police helo would at least have a chance of picking him up on TCAS Thud_and_Blunder Your points are all very sensible and professional but you may be quicker than the other aircraft, you just don't know. Your trust in the lookout from the other aircraft is admirable. Maybe, I am not so trusting. |
Could someone explain the reasons for lights-out flying at night in a peacetime training environment. My military service was many years ago and I am not up to date with modern tactics.
I assume that it must be connected with NVG flying and I can well understand that the nav lights could dazzle another crew when flying in formation. What I don't understand is why it is necessary to fly lights-out as a singleton. During my military time, I flew many hours at night on goggles but always with nav lights on. Although a strobe or ant-coll could be distracting, I never found any problem with having the nav lights turned on. |
When military heli pilots are using NVGs, the nav lights from other aircraft appear very much brighter to them than when relying merely on the naked eye.
Some aircraft do have a problem with reflected light from nav lights entering the goggles, reducing their effectiveness. There is nothing to stop a pilot using nav lights by day if he feels it appropriate to use them but there is certainly nothing to mandate that they must be used by day. However, helicopters shall have an anti-coll light on at all times (I think it must still be coloured red only for civilian aircraft) when the rotors are turning. |
Originally Posted by Skidkid
(Post 3074503)
Could someone explain the reasons for lights-out flying at night in a peacetime training environment. My military service was many years ago and I am not up to date with modern tactics.
I assume that it must be connected with NVG flying and I can well understand that the nav lights could dazzle another crew when flying in formation. What I don't understand is why it is necessary to fly lights-out as a singleton. During my military time, I flew many hours at night on goggles but always with nav lights on. Although a strobe or ant-coll could be distracting, I never found any problem with having the nav lights turned on. I agree that during transit there is little value from going lights out, unless the weather conditions decree otherwise. I really don't understand why our American cousins do so often in transit given the poor training value. For helicopters, even as a singleton, strobes (and occasionally nav lights) are a great distraction close to the ground ie ground cushion work and approaches/departures etc and so are often switched off, then switched back on for the later transit.
Originally Posted by Skidkid
(Post 3074503)
Professional Student
Quote: you should know roughly where the no lights ac is If you are trying to avoid a no-lights aircraft at night, it is no use knowing where its rough position is. You need to know where it actually is. Quote: as the route and timings are in the NOTAM Similarly, a NOTAM will give you the approximate position but not the actual position. It assumes also, that the crew are always on time at their turning points which we all know is not always the case. |
No lights training can be a requirement for several reasons and not just NVG.
The area or route is NOTAM'd for the purpose of safety. Military NOTAMs make the route/area a mandatory avoid for other military users however for civilians it can merely be a warning issued by Airspace Utilisation Section at CAA. Should a civilian be in conflict with a no lights aircraft operating within the limits of a NOTAM however, I would expect the pilot may be deemed to be hazarding his aircraft and passengers. I do however, sit to be corrected, HEDP |
ProfessionalStudent
Thanks, and things don't seem to have changed too much from my day. I well appreciate, from my previous experience, that lights can cause a distraction whilst operating on NVG in the weeds and in the cushion. We seem to agree about the transit which still raises the question as to why it is necessary for some to travel lights-out on a night transit. Perhaps, SRG and DASC should be taking a closer look at this. With regard to calling ATC, this is obviously very sensible. Thud_and_Blunder has the advantage of being able to speak to Lyneham Radar and Salisbury Ops but this is not necessarily the case in other parts of the country. There are many areas where there is no ATC available at low level, particulary after 5pm. Even if you can raise someone, you are almost certainly going to be below radar cover. |
HEDP
Yes, but you seem to have missed some of the points raised by the earlier posts. Put yourself in the position of a police or SAR pilot who is on a category A or B task. He has priority over all training flights, even if that training flight has been NOTAM'd. He wishes to fly as fast as possible, in the most direct line as possible, to the scene of his task. You would expect nothing less if you were bobbing up and down in your dinghy in a cold, rough sea. His proposed track takes him through the NOTAM'd route of a military no-lights training aircraft. If the route is close to an active airfield it is obviously sensible to call ATC for assistance. Even then, a radar service may not be available at low level. If there is no ATC available, what does he do? Does he route around the NOTAM'd area adding extra time to his transit and possibly risking the life of his casualty, or does he continue in the hope that the lights-out aircraft can see him? I don't know what the answer is; perhaps those in higher places should be providing one. |
I assume he or she would be 'dark strobeing' so that others on goggs could see him. Bit unusual to see one without nav lights , but then again if the crew is comming back from an excercise area or have recently returned from sandy places they might just have forgotten to switch 'em back on again.:}
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Unfortunately, most police aircraft do not have the advantage of using goggles.
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In the case of my fleet, the crew are using only their right eye aided with FLIR and the left eye is unaided. If we were to train with lights all the time the crew get used to using the lights of the other aircraft in formation with their left eye. As soon as they go on ops with no lights available to the left eye they stand a very good chance of becoming situationaly unaware and in a dangerous situation. Therefore; it is critical that they train with no lights from the outset.
I would put it that if the police crew were unable to talk to a no lights crew by any means then the situation would merit a serious risk assessment balancing the risk versus the aims of the police sortie. If lives are at stake then it may be worth it, otherwise maybe not. HEDP |
Some Pumas were fitted with NVG friendly and Covert lighting, covert being Infra Red and detectable with NVGs and not Naked eye, maybe they were flying covert...
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Originally Posted by Skidkid
(Post 3074655)
HEDP
If there is no ATC available, what does he do? Does he route around the NOTAM'd area adding extra time to his transit and possibly risking the life of his casualty, or does he continue in the hope that the lights-out aircraft can see him? |
Perhaps if any of the CHSU pilots are lurking they can answer how they operate out of Benson every night in LFA 1C & B surrounded by any number of Merlins and Pumas 'lights out' without any problem!
Procedures and tactics have changed over the years and perhaps in the interest of comsec it is best not to discuss them on a public forum, speculation or not. Not wanting to sound patronising in any way, but unecessary risks are not a daily pursuit of helicopter crews. |
Procedures and tactics have changed over the years and perhaps in the interest of comsec it is best not to discuss them on a public forum, speculation or not. |
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