Nimrod crash in Afghanistan Tech/Info/Discussion (NOT condolences)
 

The BBC are reporting a NATO support aircraft down in southern Afganistan.

More on CNN.

Just heard the latest news from the MOD on BBC TV - words fail me. My thoughts go out to all involved.

BBC News - 14 Dead.

I have heard a 'type' but will wait for conformation.

BBC News 24 are saying a/c possibly a Chinook .
Mechanical problem , not enemy action.
R I P to all personnel lost.

Nimrod crash in Afghanistan Tech/Info/Discussion (NOT condolences)
 

Started in order to leave other thread for condolences.

I was incensed even as the words were coming out of the mouth of Peter Wood. Before the type was confirmed I rang and lodged a complaint with the BBC and will follow it up with mail.


BBC Complaints:
Phone:
08700 100 222*

Don't bother to press any number from the recorded message, wait a few seconds and speak to a person.

Write:
BBC Complaints,
PO Box 1922,
Glasgow G2 3WT

BBC News 24, armchair expert, reporting that he has it on good authority but not yet confirmed, as to the aircraft type involved, mebtioning the type by name!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If he is wrong then I hope he burns in hell for the grief he has just caused to those related to or friends of those flying that type in theatre.

Why can't they stick to the approved procedure and be held to task when they don't?

Thank you oldfella.

Please note the 'other' thread is also a (relevant) 'news' thread and not just for 'condolences.

Media enough to drive you insane
 

Here the BBC go again.... Talking about Chinooks and they just don't know. Let everyone do their jobs and contact those who need to be.

MOD are mainly to blame for not knowing what and when, getting the Kinforming sorted now, and not pi$$ing about with a "help line". Imagine the response to a genuine query:- 'Sorry ma'am we can't tell you over the phone' Fat lot of use that's going to be. MOD, ministers, mandarins, VSO's, pull your finger out.

The press are scum, but don't blame them for trying to find out the ac type, its their job. The alternative argument is that families of those flying other types could be worried unneccessarily. Forget these lowlife and support the families in their time of need.

Aircraft Down In Afganistan
 

From the BBC News website:

14 Britons killed in Afghanistan

Fourteen British service personnel have died after their aircraft crashed in Afghanistan, the MoD has said.
Twelve RAF personnel, a Royal Marine and an Army soldier were among those who died in the crash in the southern province of Kandahar.

The aircraft, believed to be a Chinook, belonged to the Nato-led force which has been fighting the Taleban.

UK Defence Secretary Des Browne said "all indications are that this was a terrible accident".

It's a black day. It's a disaster for our soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan

Major Charles Heyman

He added: "This is dreadful and shocking news. I know that the people of Britain will join me in sending our deep condolences to the loved ones of those who have lost their lives.

"I can say, however, at this stage all the indications are that this was a terrible accident and not the result of hostile action."

'Technical fault'

An International Security Assistance Force spokesman said "enemy action had been discounted at this stage".

It is believed the cause of the crash was "a technical fault"'

Nato forces say it was supporting the Nato mission in the area.

The defence analyst, Major Charles Heyman, told BBC News 24: "It's a black day. It's a disaster for our soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan.

"No other words can describe it. It's a big hit to morale. Believe me it really does affect morale."

BBC defence correspondent, Paul Wood, told BBC News 24: "I'm getting strong guidance from a supposedly reliable defence source that it is not in fact a Hercules, we're talking about a Chinook helicopter here.

"That would make sense if they were supporting an operation, as has been reported, in a place called Panjwayi - west of Kandahar.

"It's a town - which has been in Taleban hands - which has been forced back into coalition hands by a big push, still continuing today."

The crash brings the death toll of UK forces personnel in Afghanistan to 36 since the start of operations in November 2001.

Ministry of Defence Helpline
A special helpline is available on 08457 800 900 for families concerned about relatives
The crash is thought to be the biggest single loss of British troops in Iraq or Afghanistan since military operations began there in 2001.

Ten British armed personnel were killed when a Hercules C130K crashed north-west of Baghdad in January 2005.

The latest crash comes as Afghan and Nato troops began a major anti-Taleban drive in the Panjwayi district of Kandahar which has seen months of fighting.

Earlier, Nato said its forces had launched a major offensive against known hideouts of Taleban insurgents in the Panjwayi district of Kandahar, with the aim of driving them out of the area.

There was no indication of an enemy attack on the plane, which was not a fighter jet, Maj Scott Lundy said.

Afghanistan is experiencing its bloodiest period since the fall of the Taleban in 2001. Much of the fighting has been concentrated in the south.

The plane came down about 20 km (12 miles) west of the city of Kandahar, Maj Lundy of the International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) said.

It was "supporting a Nato mission. It went off the radar and crashed in an open area in Kandahar."


Nato forces are at the scene but there is no word on how many people were on board. A large Canadian contingent is based in Kandahar province.

A local tribal elder told the Associated Press news agency by phone that the wreckage of the plane was burning in an open field.

"I can see three or four helicopters in the sky, and coalition forces are also arriving in the area," he said.

On Thursday, a Dutch F-16 fighter pilot was killed after his plane crashed in the southern province of Ghazni.

Officials said the crash was believed to be an accident.

MOD have confirmed the type according to sky news

BBC just confirmed a Nimrod MR2

Sky and the Beeb now saying MoD confirming an aircraft type, both news channels giving the same type.

BBC have read a statement from the MoD declaring the aircraft type as a Nimrod MR2.

The speculating @rse who was on the BBC news 24 earlier claiming it was 'pretty much certain it was a Chinook' should be taken to Odiham and laid out in front of the families he put through the wringer.

"BBC defence correspondent, Paul Wood, told BBC News 24: "I'm getting strong guidance from a supposedly reliable defence source that it is not in fact a Hercules, we're talking about a Chinook helicopter here. "

I don't think Paul Wood will make this mistake again. Although then again........:ugh:

Mr Wood didn't make a mistake. He reported someone else's mistake. Blame the knob who told him it was a Chinook.

If you're going to criticise the press, at least show that you know something about journalism. And then don't compound your hypocrisy by using the BBC, CNN and Sky to keep you up to date (five times in the first six posts), while bitching about the information which other people are working hard to bring to you.

And the one on Radio 4 PM programme!

Utter Disgrace
 

At the time of this story breaking my immediate reaction was to speculate on a/c type, But NO common sense told me not to until the facts were released, the issue of the Press "only doing their job" has made my blood boil,

it is bad enough for one death from within the services let alone 14 but when it is compounded by the press first "speculating" that it could be a chinook, or a herc only goes to add to my anger, when the facts are released that it is a nimrod the press in my eyes appear to fall on a defensive shield of the "only doing my job" sketch and ultimately "GUESSING" what it "COULD" be goes to add fear into those that dont need that fear in the first place ...i.e Families of those near and dear serving in those regions...Sorry if this seems an unjust argument but in summary i feel that the media seem to have cloaks of invincibility if they get it wrong ..........TO those that SPECULATED ON AIR i hope they show a black screen or something and apologise for the unneccersary anguish caused to the Herc/ Vortex crews, if anyone from the press would care to add light or make comment feel free..


DAMN SAD DAY:(

Sorry, Konkordski, but that simply doesn't wash.

People will naturally refer to the news stories when such news breaks and link to them. To do so is not at all hypocritical, since, in good time, the news becomes clearer, and people will link back to it.

If you reflect on this for a moment, please, surely you must realise that there was absolutely no need whatsoever for Wood to inform the world that he was pretty sure that it was a Chinook (as he did on BBC World about 45 minutes ago and I gather he did the same on other BBC News outlets). If he is supposed to be an expert in the area of defence, he should've known that revealing that it was a Chinook risked causing severe distress and anxiety to all those closely associated with that fleet (and probably families who might think that their loved ones might possibly be aboard a Chinook), kinforming procedures or not.

All we can assume is that the scoop was more important to Wood than anything else, despite the fact that the information (as he effectively admitted on BBC World) might not have been correct. He should be thoroughly ashamed of himself.

The Have Your Say section of the website is suffering from the same rubbish. Complaints are going in from here and from ARRSE. Usual left-wing hijacking of a thread, but the BBC are colluding in that they know what sort of comments will be left - and it's supposed to be a moderated board.

I think Rum Ration is closed at the weekends.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/make...nt_step1.shtml

Takes you to a BBC email complaints page. Page 2 states:

We publish responses to the most significant or numerous complaints here.

Complain by this means if possible. They may not consider the complaint the most significant but if it is numerous enough they will have to give a public answer.

OK, lets start with the facts. The MOD and NATO announced an aircraft had gone down, and that there were no survivors. They knew which type, mission and crew. They chose not to say at least which type of ac.

Therefore anyone with a flying relative spent hours waiting for the dreaded knock on the door. The BBC and others looked at the possibilities, I admit I never considered Nimrod given its record, yet there are other types which are at the front of our consciousness as far as loss in unclear circumstances. If Wood had been right what should we castigate him for? Speculation?

Part of the BBC Mission Statement is to inform. There are plenty of posts elsewhere regarding the general lack of information and awareness of the great british public. I contend Wood was merely trying to report what he believed to be genuine information. Did Wood find himself believing mis/disinformation? In the modern era of command, control and communication this is entirely due to MOD not understanding the speed of reporting and the potential interest (possibly to reinforce the overstretch issues that have been bubbling away on BBC Radio News for the last few weeks).

'Course I could be wrong, maybe Wood was merely spicing up a story for his own glorification and career furtherance. He doesn't give a £$%^ for anybody and is prepared to totally destroy his credibility as a defence reporter with the people he gets his juiciest stories from.

I know where I stand on this one.

Complaint posted and response requested....

Disgusted at speculative reporting today concerning the tragic loss of an RAF aircraft. This will have caused unnecessary pain and anguish to many families. What for ? A big scoop? Shame on you. You would do far better by taking a responsible position on this type of incident and gain the respect of the British public. I think a statement of regret on peak time news would be appropriate. I am increasingly uncomfortable with BBC reporting which seems to be simply following the pack, rather than standing out from the crowd. The BBC was once seen as the model of professionalism for its industry, sadly no more.

As to whether the reporter thought he had genuine 'inside info' I will only say two words: Chinese whispers.

"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story"
Ba$tard$

Would it be worthwhile preparing a Complaint that all can copy /paste into the given field, similar to a petition , but will allow those with little time to add a complaint

worth a thought?

I`ll start thinking

***and heres my post from the first thread....(moderator, wonder if my first one from the original incident file can be removed?)**

At the time of this story breaking my immediate reaction was to speculate on a/c type, But NO common sense told me not to until the facts were released, the issue of the Press "only doing their job" has made my blood boil,

it is bad enough for one death from within the services let alone 14 but when it is compounded by the press first "speculating" that it could be a chinook, or a herc only goes to add to my anger, when the facts are released that it is a nimrod the press in my eyes appear to fall on a defensive shield of the "only doing my job" sketch and ultimately "GUESSING" what it "COULD" be goes to add fear into those that dont need that fear in the first place ...i.e Families of those near and dear serving in those regions...Sorry if this seems an unjust argument but in summary i feel that the media seem to have cloaks of invincibility if they get it wrong ..........TO those that SPECULATED ON AIR i hope they show a black screen or something and apologise for the unneccersary anguish caused to the Herc/ Vortex crews, if anyone from the press would care to add light or make comment feel free..

Complaint lodged with the BBC

Disgusting :mad:

Likewise

W*****s

SBG

I've made a comment on the BBC site, disgusted by their behaviour.

BTW, I phoned my parents earlier and they have heard nothing as yet.

My complaint
 

This is my complaint..feel free to copy/paste/change if you see fit.

Having heard with sadness at the loss today of the nimrod aircraft in Afghanistan, I must say that I am utterly disappointed at the “speculation” produced during the various BBC News features on the radio & Television, The comments suggested that the aircraft “could be a Chinook" then later to include a hercules.
By this single element of reporting this has ensured that UK families of the Chinook & Hercules crews based in Afghanistan suffered prolonged distress in the belief that a knock on the door was a possibility, This may also have had an opposite effect on the families of Nimrod crews who upon hearing from Mr Wood that it was “not in fact a Hercules, we're talking about a Chinook helicopter here” may have in turn caused them further unnecessary distress by suggesting their loved ones were safe. I feel that the BBC have overstepped the mark in Investigative Journalism and finally begun to follow the majority of other broadcasters by including speculation into their reporting when a number of years ago they would simply have said “until officially informed by the ministry of defence we are unable to confirm what type of aircraft was involved”, I for one will be seeking an official apology to be broadcast, and for a much more sensitive BBC to be returned.

CM

Another complaint lodged, know many a crew member on the Squadrons.

Nimrod Liney, father ex-Nimrod Wet man

Complaint lodged. Thanks CM.

Was it an MR2 or perhaps an R1?

Defence secretary already has announced it appears to be a tragic accident.
So.. given the track record of honesty in this government...

I too have lodged a complaint. I've been lurking on these forums for a while now but thought I'd add my 2p's worth here.

Kitbag, well reasoned logic. The MoD were the ones who decided to go public without releasing the pertinent details. The BBC didn't help matters, but I suggest it is the MoD that have a "Duty of Care" to the NoK reporting chain, and not the BBC. The MoD have apparently decided not to embrace the electronic news age in which we all live, for better or worse, and so are the prime instigators of this disgusting piece of misinformation and subterfuge today.

The BBC are a news organisation, simple fact. They will do everything in their power to be the first with the story, and their attitude is that corrections can be made after the event, if the facts initially prove to be elusive.

You can not have it both ways with the BBC. The only difference between them and CNN etc is that you and I pay their wages. The race to be first with the story is the only excuse the BBC ever need to come up with, as far as they are concerned. Too many people here are trying to put them on a pedastal as "Guardians of the Truth", and then pillory them for their mistakes, nothing could be more wrong.

What excuse does the MoD have for their complete and utter mishandling of this tragedy? Why did all those military communities, but especially Odiham and Lyneham, have to go through this anguish before the tragic news finally lay with ISK?

By all means castigate the BBC, but don't let the Government off the hook for being the instigator of this debacle.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...OSwhs&refer=uk

"The crew had reported a technical problem before the aircraft went down in an open area, he said."

Complaint posted. Having kinformed for the Gulf Herc Crash, I can assure you that our job was made far more difficult (particularly in terms of timing) than it should have been simply because of the necessity to get the info out to those affected before the news agancies started letting the world know. Disgusting.

STH

Two In - I'm afraid I have to disagree with you.

As someone who has served in both Afghanistan and Iraq (among other places) I, as I'm sure you might, know that there are procedures in place for military personnel to stop news being leaked back to the UK. You may or may not also be aware that the embedded media in such places aren't subject to such rules and what with their access to satellite phones they can have gossip picked up outside the EFI broadcasted back to the UK in a matter of minutes. The MoD announced an a/c had crashed, the BBC added everything else.

I'm still waiting to find out if my half-brother who flys a kipper kite is ok, I have made a comment on the BBC website and shall be writing a complaint as soon as I know more.

Sir, in your news today you, totally erroneously, ascribed the loss of an RAF aircraft in Afghanistan as, if not a C-130, then a Chinook. Only hours later correctly ascribing the loss as a Nimrod MR2.

In doing so you inflicted great grief and worry on the whole RAF C-130 and Chinook communities, operational and families alike.

I had been lead to believe that, in light of other BBC reporting disasters, that all reports had to be confirmed from at least two sources before publication. In this case the source would seem to have been a single reported hearsay account.

Before I submit a more formal application under the Freedom of Information Act for the actions taken under this totally reprehensible report, I would be grateful for confirmation that a suitably rigorous internal investigation is under way - and the results will be made public.

Yours Sincerely

ORAC....

Complaint lodged as well.

But H-S, that's my point. This stuff will get back to Blighty a damn sight faster than the glacial like response of the MoD, so get the relevant information out before the news Johnnie’s start their rampant speculation, which they will anyway. Not being as responsive as the news organizations is simply unacceptable. The old arguments about infonok needing to be accurate are specious when some leech of a newshound is already at the front door asking their usual battery of sensitive questions.