Civvy RT
 

Was flying on a nav ex the other day and completely stunned by some of the RT transmissions made by civvy flying schools. it seems that they talk just to make noise and clog up the airwaves.:ugh:

having said that, i got passed on to a small city airport in south yorkshire, who were very helpful and kept the transmissions short and punchy.

Just wondering if anyone else is in the same boat where you can't get a word in due to some johnson having a conversation with another aircraft?

I hope that little civvie airport in South Yorkshire was not Humberside.

negative, definatley not humberside, theyre too far east to be south yorkshire anyway.:}

I am a civvy pilot and a UAS stude, so I view the R/T from both sides of the fence. I do find some civvy R/T to be utter rubbish. I can find myself getting quite hot under the collar as I am waiting to put in a transmission as a waypoint or something approaches, or if I have an important call to make and someone is sitting chatting away making a right faff. Military R/T seems far more succinct and sensible. At times I do find more information could be passed, but ultimately its far more efficient than listening to the drivel coming out on VHF at times.

I think you need to remember that civvy flying does not have the rigorous standards that military pilots have to aspire to, and there are somewhat "doddery" types out there who need the extra long transmissions to be sure. Personally, I don't think I would feel safe flying civvy GA with military style R/T, primarily because a lot of our airfields are A/G and we do not have a tower or radar controller to watch us all the time. I do understand how shocking it must be to entirely mil pilots coming across it as times- flying schools I can live with, but some qualified pilots out there are a lot worse, and they are the ones that get to me.

Airplane!

Flight Control: Flight 209 you're clear for takeoff.
Clarence Oveur: Roger.
Roger Murdock: Huh?
FC: LA departure frequency 123.9.
Clarence Oveur: Roger.
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Victor Basta: Request vector, over.
Clarence Oveur: What?
FC: Flight 209 clear for vector 324.
Roger Murdock: We have clearance, Clarence.
Clarence Oveur: Roger, Roger, what's our vector, victor?
FC: Now we're in radio clearance, over.
Clarence Oveur: That's Clarence Oveur, over.
Victor Basta: Roger.
Roger Murdock: Huh?
FC: Roger, over.
Clarence Oveur: What?
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Victor Basta: Who?

nice joke.
looks like there are a few people who notice the gashness of some civvy places.
i was flyin the other day, and about to call finals to land, when someone broadcasted the following message, 'hey fella.....cup of tea fella......ah ah aaaah'
iv never known anythin like it, as strange and annoying as it was, it had me in tears with laughter.
anyone got anythin to beat that?

Red Flag Brief...
 

I'm bored at home, can you tell?
 

There are a whole bunch of reasons why some civvy pilots are poor at RT. I think it's where you learned to fly that determines the quality of your RT. Incorrect phraseology etc is understandable from a civvy pilot who has very little exposure to 'proper' air traffic but there is no exscuse for private chit chat at any level!

SNAFU i couldnt agree more. in most cases there are civvy pilots who honcho with others and do try and help each other out, but in most cases it sounds like your tuned into gash fm. theres a whole bunch of stuff that needs sorting.

Perhaps it's an issue of clarity of RT being relative to speed. At 7-8 miles per min 250 ft, you don't have the time or brain power to waffle!

I remember flying through Spade a while back & trying to check in with ATC only to find a C130 (none RAF) on the freq, waffling on about Hadrian's Wall being a fantastic sight & a monument of Roman engineering. He then went on to ask ATC whether there were any other decent sights of historical interest! No prizes for guessing where the pilot was from.:ugh:

Civil flight schools usually teach students to use short and concise RT. Who, where, intentions, etc. Problems can arise when pilots don't use the radio much, either intentionally or due to lack of confidence. This lack of practice can lead to longer transmissions and mumbling.

I have heard 'waffle' going on at AG airfields where there is a club member in the tower talking to a club member in the curcuit. Have also heard it at glider airfields where they talk about anything and everything.

Flying yesterday. Listened to a local glider site whilst en route, someone on there talking about a recent trip to Kazakhstan and then proceeded to tell some sh!t jokes to amuse everyone. A complete clown, he certainly sounded like A Fool.

Bottom line is don't let it bother you, i don't think anybody's RT is perfect 100% of the time.:ok:

I personally find transmissions such as perfect but long winded Practice PANs and joining calls from military slow movers that should know better far more annoying than rubbish RT from those that may be excused.

Try Cosford on a standard weekend. Four Vigilants in the northern circuit, southern circuit active with gliders, four Tutors recovering with straight in approaches, air ambulance departing, one controller, one frequency and just then some civvie breaks in with a 60 second transmission giving the whole history of his local flight from Halfpenny Green and asking for a non-existent radar service. MAYHEM!

"The radios are not there for private Polish... chit-chat!"

"Shut-up! In Polish!"

Damn, I was just going to intimate the same thing about Wyton (except for the gliders, and air ambulance, and Halfpenny Green). Oh well, similar story over here, 4 in the circuit, 6 on recovery, police helo on a scramble, 2 para-gliders 1nm south not talking, 2 flying club guys trying to join the circuit and a monologue from some GA with excellent position reports etc and no radar here so don't care!

Sorry Viffer.

Sounds like Cosford and Wyton are great places to learn about situational awareness. I know some visiting pilots have had the c**p frightened out of them and vowed never to come again on a weekend.

hrmmm
 

Ridgerunner thanks for sharing your Wealth of information with us.... I'll
bare in mind your request for 'a bit more info'. Make sure you pass that
'nugget' to CFS so they can alter the way we do things.... I often find
myself wanting 'just that bit more' info when talking to GCI/AWACS on one
box whilst maintaining all formation comm for an IMC 4ship in grinder
without JTIDS on the back box.... There's a reason why do things the way
we do, and may I be as bold as to suggest perhaps you don't!? ;)

I work both military and civvy aircraft....you can get naff RT from both! :E

Hello High Expect... I follow the R/T procedures and phraseology as I have been taught and learnt. I do find the mil r/t very concise and in comparison to the usual civvy r/t it can feel unusual to me. Please don't criticise me for sharing my opinion and experiences- it is far from a "wealth of knowledge" and whilst I am vastly inexperienced in comparison to yourself, I should not be afraid to post. Furthermore- I in no way suggested anything about changing procedures or sending any "nuggets" to CFS- I am not so obtuse to be ignorant of my position. May I boldly suggest you "cool your jets" :)

snafu, that message earlier about the sh!t joke telling guy inbound from uzbehkistan sounds crazy. i think iv heard him too, cos i was listening in to full sutton radio, and he asked the controller, who im guessing he knew, 'what would you rather be.......or a wasp?' most definatley a fool.

Private Civvy is more often than not long winded and irrelevant, but there is still the odd Military guy who calls in with Ac Type, Position, Altitude, Persons on Board, Type of Engagement, Pension plan, JPA password, Number of late meals booked and whether or not any veggie meals included, favorite colour and wife's nickname, only to get;

Controller: Bloggs 123, Request Type of Service?

Bloggs 123: Uuuuuh, Standby.

I heard a funny one from a 'Reach' c/s the other day...

London Mil - "Reach __, what type of service on leaving the upper air?"

Reach__ - "What yall got?"

London Mil - "Well...err..we can offer you a radar information service or there is a radar advisory service...err...

Reach__ - "That first one sounds pretty good..."

;)

Then there is the allegedly true story of the RAF Hercules asked by Brize Norton ATC what type of service was required........

The reply was something along the lines of ...'the usual p*ss poor one will be fine'.....

The Herc captain got in a bit pooh for that one apparently!

"Repeat pleeze" :)

I've heard bad RT from both but must confess that nowadays my side - the civvies do seem to waffle after having hit the PTT without knowing what they are going to say!

A few weeks ago (actually 23/6) I heard an absolute blinder:- late Friday afternoon and I'm transiting Lakenheath on my way to the South West. I'm fat, dumb and happy having been radar id'd and I'm listening to a new voice that has just popped up on freq and been told to squawk and ident.

"Errrr, umm, Lakenheath Zone, G O L F A L F A B R A VO C H A R L I E D E L T A squawk 4602. G O L F A L F A B R A VO C H A R L I E D E L T A is a Piper PA28-161, two persons on board from Norwich to Norwich, via Attleborough, Swaffham, Kings Lynn, Downham Market, Thetford, Snetterton, Hethel, Norwich. Three hours endurance and I'm currently 4 miles south east of errrr, ummm............ Attlebridge. No sorry, south west of Attlebridge at 2200' on 1016."

Lakenheath, "G-CD, radar identified, Lakenheath QNH 1011. Remain clear of Lakenheath and Mildenhall ATZ."

"G O L F A L F A B R A VO C H A R L I E D E L T A Lakenheath QNH 1011 and will remain clear of Lakenheath and Mildenhall ATZ."

Two minutes later:

Lakenheath: G-CD, two F16s right to left your 3 o'clock at 7,000'.

G-CD: Ah Lakenheath, my passenger has the traffic in sight. Would they like to come by and say hello?

Lakenheath: G-CD, excuse me Sir, are you saying that you'd like the two jets to fly past you?

G-CD: Yes, please - we could wave at them and my passenger could take some photos that we could send them later.

L'heath: G-CD that's a negative they are doing a procedure recovery.

G-CD: Oh well never mind, maybe another time.

L'heath: G-CD you are now approaching the edge of my zone, squawk 7000 and frequency change approved.

G-CD: Thank you!

I really was wetting myself at this stage as the Septic controller had £ucked them off as soon as he could.

Sixteen year old female ATC Cadet on her first solo circuit at Cosford earlier this year.

"Alpha six.......................Oh I cant remember my f*****g callsign but I'm downwind to land.

that is quality! sometimes its better to say nothing huh.

If you read the CAA RT manual and then add a very low time student pilot who is trying to use the RT as the manual states you will soon see why the some of the RT in light aviation is so long winded, with only 15-20 hours on the aircraft I think that some of you would have not been much better if you had the CAA manual to work from.

The three things that realy get me pi**ed off are :-
1 the people who dont listen out before transmitting and step on the middle of a readback.

2 Opening the transmition with "speedwing 123 with you" what in the hell is this "with you" thing ?

3 The reply to an SSR code " 7001 coming down"

All of these are common to the airlines in the UK and the not listening out is becoming a real problem, perhaps people will learn that one transmition at the right time takes less time than having to say it all twice because the first message was lost by stepping on another transmition.

(Ex mil now civvie). Trouble is, a lot of folks are taught more or less what to say but they AREN'T taught what NOT to say. :rolleyes:

Yesterday was a bit of a 'mare on the R/T, especially Coventry and Luton as it was extremely busy and very difficult to get a word in edgeways. However, a lot of transitting pilots seemed to be competing to tell ATC just about everything apart from the colour of their socks.

E.G. "G-****. I have now just seen two aircraft pass on my left hand side!" (Under a FIS in Class G).

I wasn't alone in saying "Fer Christ's sake, shut the F*** up!" or "Yes, very nice, thanks a lot for telling us that" more than once without pressing the button.

I operate a radio, albeit not an aviation one and we have the same problems. To a large degree it depends on the instructor. If he/she allows waffle, thats what the student will speak.

We have operators in my control room who will read a complete serial to a unit. When someone's getting his head kicked in you don't need to tell the police officers that are going that its all over some stupid argument that happened last year.

Ahh yes, Reach callsigns. Assorted responses to my asking what type of radar service they require have included:

a"n ILS please?"
"some fuel and a screen wash" (unfortunately he was serious)
and my own personal favourite,
"can I have the full service please?" to which I wittily responded, "would you like some coffee with that?" Obviously septic didn't have a clue and asked whether that was the famous British sense of humour.

Getting back to the thread, the worst civvy RT I ever heard was from a Lufthansa captain in an A340, departing Newcastle and flying through the Vale of York (clever chap!). When given avoiding action against the pop up fast-jet contact in his 12 o'clock 6 miles climbing hard right at him, his reply was...
"Vot? Ve are on-route civil traffic. I am not going to move, I haf passengers. Tell ze other aircraft to move out of my way."

"no, no" quoth I "you are deluded and you'd better turn fast if you wish to avoid serious embarassment."

"Ahh, yes, I see him now on TCAS and you are right. I shall turn as you say!"

Oh how we laughed after filling out all the paperwork....:E c*&^s

T'was banter me'old :ok:

No bother mate

OK, so if mil pilots are so great at R/T what about the two tucanos at EGKB on saturday? Arriving fom the east given an overhead join, right hand, downwind for 21 only to continue their right hand turn till they were heading east again straght into the path of a C303 that was following the correct procedure. Cessna had to take avoiding action so that the two tucanos could now join left hand to land. If as I suspect, tucanos on a display detail are flown by instuctors this does'nt say much for the quality of R/t and airmanship in her majestsy's flying club. Surely knowing left from right is fairly fundermental in gaining an instructer rating?

JB

No instructer ratings (or instuctors) in the RAF, they only rate instructors.
And they arrive from the east. Straight from the east.

Her Majesty is not amused... Fundementally.

RG

Not sure if that's a rhetorical question (apologies if so). It's an irritating Americanism used by PPL holders who did their training stateside. They're often the ones who also ask for a flight following service (and don't bother with lookout or navigation as they'd rather just stare at the GPS).:ugh:

With you also often seems to be used by septic commercial crews who are ignorant of RT procedures on rocking up.:ugh:

Jepp's-a-bore.

You didn't, by any chance, ever fail selection as a military pilot did you...?

I dunno, just a vibe I'm getting!:}

Anyone heard a psuedo mil pilot talking a whole bunch of crud to Leeds Bradford on a Saturday afternoon boring the @rse off everyone with "2 POB, with green socks on, and my finest £2 off ebay Ray Bans replicas, one day I'm gonna be an airline captain so get used to listening to me fellas"

You know who I mean fella.......yes you "Jordanian" Airforce man :cool: