Why do people leave the RAF early?
 

I'd like this thread to serve as an info database for PMA. Here's how it works:

We write why we're leaving, they read it, and then do something about it, so that the RAF gets better, and retains the right people in sufficient numbers to work properly.

Please post here what you think is wrong, and any percieved fixes.

Cheers.

And yes, I'm leaving. Not because I want to, but because I feel personally under-valued, cannot see an operationally relevant career progression, and am being paid to leave.

I won't spoil it for everyone else by listing the rest. I just hope the big guys pay attention, because I'd rather stay and I bet most of the rest of us want to as well.

Whats a PMA ?



How about doing that via the leaving questionairre and during your interview with the Commodore? That way the correct people get to see why you are leaving and they can feed the information up the correct chain...

There are procedures in place (and have been for many years) for this sort of thing.....why not use them

Goo point....whe people leave BA....do they mank and moan for weeks and weeks? do they post messages on the PPrune BA site....or do they just walk?

errrrm

becuase JPA is a disaster

because they can better jobs outside

because they have morals

because they dont want to be a political pawn

because they have had enough

any more?

Because the RAF is more than just a job, its a lifestyle.

People often feel 'down' when the career they started many moons ago full of hope and dreams becomes just a way of making a wage because all the 'perks' of service life are chipped away by the bean counters. No wonder they want to have a moan about it. Also the camaraderie is sad to let go of and this upsets some people.

My next door neighbour (an AAC type) is being posted to Germany soon, to an old RAF base in fact. When I joined there were loads of places for an RAF service person to go around the world, now they either seem to be 'owned' by the Army now or are sandy and hot. Very soon the posting choices will be Brize, Marham or Lossiemouth for much of the RAF it seems.:(

Not meaning to point a finger at Stacks, but once again, the RAF appears to have forgotten the SH force.

Unless that was a sly implication that he knows more than than he is letting on..........

If you do end up in the SH force though, you're pretty certain to end up in the sandpit, with the occasional det to the UK.

TI

We often forget the SH Force as it is predominantly owned by the Army:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

UnderPowered,
Its a great idea, but you do understand of course that it will never work.

Don't you think all of those faceless and spineless fools called 'AIRSHIPS' already read this forum? How many threads do you think there has been with people explaining why they are leaving, and the genuine reasons for them walking?

The facts are few and simple..........£££££££££££££££££££££££££

Sorry, but you can bleet all you want, nobody is going to take any notice I'm afraid. Nice idea tho'

Kind regards to all
TSM

Anecdote from my trade during a meeting with PMA.

"RAF Officer: So then, when are you going to introduce some incentive scheme to keep us in the RAF?
PMA: When we want to keep you in."

Nuff said.

I will leave after a little under 25 years because I fancy doing something different. Had a great time, would swap it for nothing. I remember in the early days those knackered old gits bleating about this and that, constantly bashing their pint glasses of the bar with a "it's not the same...." whilst telling us all how wonderful life was in Singapore/FEAF/Ghan etc. Looking back, it appears that not much has changed in that respect.

No bitterness, just time to see what else happens in the World.

I left on PVR for three reasons:

1. It was clear that the RAF life was becoming incompatible with family life. It is unrealistic (and extarordinarily bad management) to expect anyone to seriously put their career before their family, except temporarily (exercises etc) or in times of national crisis or war.

2. The gulf between reality and what we were told was reality became quite frankly insulting. The ridiculous base closures and unit cutbacks would in no way increase operational efficiency.

3. The Iraq war was a squalid exercise in deceit that no-one was punished for. If not for the corrosive impact it had on trust in politicians, they would have tried it on again elsewhere.

Provided 'they' are being quite shrewd - and we're talking about the people who introduced JPA - it wouldn't amaze me if the people leaving under their own steam were fulfilling a quota decided upon a while back, achievable through a stealth policy of undermining conditions/quality of life - if so it's clearly been a success.

The problem with opening a floodgate is, unlike redundancy, it's indiscriminate and it isn't always possible to stem the flow. On the one hand it's clever trying to get rid of people on the cheap - just p!ss them off enough - but what if all the pilots leave and none of the clerks? All the indicators I see/hear lead me to believe there could easily be a manpower crisis in the next 5 years. Talk of people's external plans is a daily occurence - not the odd individual from a few years ago. Of course the country can't go undefended, so as insurance the RAF will have age-old safety measures to turn to if things get too bad - perhaps up the PVR waiting time to 3yrs (remember, EU legistlation is only a guideline with the military), perhaps call-up the RAuxAF/reserve commitment people, or how about some form of conscription to handily tackle our 'undisciplined yoof' problem? Remember, when it comes to national security and 'wars on terror', our rights come second.

But it will only be after we suffer a defeat in battle - which we're still some way off for the time being - that a review of our armed forces will recognise the need to repair the damage of underinvestment, to make military service attractive and retentive, while ensuring kit is the best available and not the result of a politically driven gravy train.

Until we literally cannot do the job - not just bleat to say we can't - until we physically cannot beat an enemy, nothing is set to change.

Increasing the PVR wait time (to 3 years for example) is a negative retention factor in itself and may encourage a catastrophic outflow at one time. There is only far that compulsion can be taken before the whole system falls to pieces.

Indeed it is, but retention has hardly been a priority over the last 10yrs has it? So what if people want to leave? Lots of people I know are biding their time and pensions are keeping them in for now - the theory has always been that those who have done 12-17yrs service generation will take our places when we get to the magical 16/22. Or at least that's what 'they' are gambling on. If the people in the 12-17yrs in bracket go, that presents a problem.

'Bored RAF whingers' are automatically regarded as troublesome, but what if we provide an early indicator of what the masses might be thinking? At an accident, if you're trying to save someone's (somethings?) life, check on the quiet ones first...

But surely that's what being in the services has always been about? I lived in 18 different OMQs during my time in the RAF and did endless dets in the '70s. Hardly 'compatible with family life', but I have a very understanding wife. 'Plus ca change' and all that - the difference now is that people whinge about anything and everything rather than getting on with the job that they're paid (now) a huge amount for. Remember in the days of Harold Wilson when Phantom pilots were paid less than London bus drivers?:=

Family life has changed somewhat since the 70s - not all for the better!

In those good old days, the wife would stay at home and look after the family. It was easier for hubby to relocate then as compared to now, when wives often have careers that require them to stay in one place. This is one example of where change in society has outstripped change in the Armed Forces. A wife staying at home looking after children disgracefully does not get a full pension at the age of 60 as she is not paying NI.

The "civilianisation" of the Armed Forces is embraced by HMG and MoD on certain occasions, such as when it comes to rises to FQ charges in order to line the pockets of a Japanese bank, oops I mean to bring the charges in line with market sector rent.

The demographics may indeed prove troublesome if many of those who are midway to two-thirds of the way towards a pension decide to pull the plug. This may be exacerbated by the new pension scheme - which pays out on a 35 year maximum period of service and doesn't link with inflation until age 60 - and the lack of provision of boarding schools, family healthcare, cheap housing etc that used to be part of the Service lifestyle. So in later years, many of those striving towards a pension - who will have joined in the last 2 years or so - may decide that the pension is not the incentive it once was, and that there are financial and other reasons for leaving - buying a house (rather than paying high FQ rent), allowing the wife (or husband) to earn a decent salary (and a pension in later life), school places, health and dental care etc.

The real pinch point may well be in 10 years time, the 100th anniversary of the RAF, once the inadequacies of the new pension and of the Service lifestyle become apparent!

OverTq

I don't think it's about having to move house every 2-3 years, I don't think it's even about the necessity of multiple out-of-area dets. I don't even think it's about pay.

My job is made 3 times harder by policy that often doesn't make sense. Despite the 'best ideas in the world' me and my mates can't do a thing to improve/suggest things because there is no internal communications policy. While you will readily tell me I don't need one because I'm in the military, what if the higher echelons could benefit from my opinions in forming policy/buying kit without it affecting military discipline? Why not benefit from communicating with people two-way rather than fearing it?

My daily equipment - not the detachment stuff - is old, second rate, often poorly designed and consistently sourced from the cheapest supplier. Nobody has ever asked me what I want or need to do my job better. And when we do get the chance of new kit the presumption has always been that my boss knows all about my job. Let's just say several of my bosses have built careers talking a good job! I need say little more on that subject than JPA.

OOA dets, yeah, they're a core requirement, but why are so many people still on the books who can't deploy? Why am I seemingly from the only country who pay income tax while away or who don't benefit from significantly more cash for being away, such as UN pay in the Balkans? It isn't all about cash, but why should anyone who's unfit ever bother to get fit? So they can go OOA and live in basic conditions for 4 months for essentially no extra money?

And even then, after I've jumped through everyones hoops to get to be away from my family for 4-6 months, I go to Brize to find nobody has bought any new aircraft to get me there - or more importantly get me home - because it doesn't matter to anyone!

For the majority I think you'll find pay is secondary.

You are right that pay is not the major factor. In fact the armed forces are very well paid. A number of years ago pay was a major factor - at 38 you were being paid to leave but with the retention schemes this became less important. Having completed 19 years service in the rotary world i left knowing that i would be taking a significant pay cut. However, the improvement in my lifestyle and being able to make decisions of where i go/what i do far out way the drop in salary. The flying i am now doing is just as good and more rewarding than that in the RAF and i do not have any of the secondary duties/trivia to go with it - i am paid to fly.

So lifestyle is a major factor and that is not even to get started on how the armed forces are being used now, poor defence policy and the same people being sent to the same places time and again with little break.

I enjoyed my service and good luck to everyone still in but there is a time to move on.

Of course, and that's why when I joined we had a choice of 8, 12 or 16 yrs service (but, of course, there was no opportunity to PVR then). So it's always been the way that the majority stay in long enough to have fun/pain and move on to other things when the time is right for them. I had more fun than pain (except the first 6 yrs) so stayed until the bitter (quite sweet, really) end.

How about doing that via the leaving questionairre and during your interview with the Commodore?

What interview?? The one where the clerk asks you for your ID back?

I left in 1992 (Sqn Ldr engineer) after 16 years, and have never once regretted it.

My main reasons were that there was a complete lack of career management, and that complete plonkers got promoted whilst people I respected were told that there was no career for them. By products of leaving were continuity of education for my children and continuity in a good job for my wife.

Looking at the forum, and realising that, had I stayed to 55, I would now be counting down my a "days to do" on a wall chart, I am even more glad that I grasped the nettle.

(Actually I have one regret - I left at the time of redundancies and, had I not taken my option, I may have got MORE money by getting a redundancy packege, but I wasn't going to take the risk!)

I agree with Jess; this is the thing that will make me leave. I have a handicapped child at home, who puts an incredible amount of strain on family life. The RAF just doesn't understand this, and is unsympathetic. I'm currently away on a 6-monther; when I asked if it could be made a 4-monther, to try to help my wife out, the PMA answer was 'no - it's 6 months'. Great. Thanks, chaps. God knows what state Mrs Snapper will be in when I get back. I could have asked for preferential treatment, but that's not me; I've always followed the flag, but now my family must come first. 2 years to my 44 point...

reasons
 

Hi all,
A hot topic it seems and just thought I'd put my tuppence worth in as well.
Someone asked why people leaving don't just get on with it and stop moaning. I think the reason is that (for myself anyway) it is a little sad to be leaving and although we have made the decision to leave, and yes, for me personally the grass is massively greener on the other side, because of the attachment we feel for the RAF/Services it is really sad to see it going the way it is. There is no way to have an adult conversation about it with people who have enough power to listen and perhaps change things so it is probably out of frustration that you end up venting feelings/moans/frustrations in the hope that someone may actually read and action some common themes (yes, I know, wishful thinking).
A comment about pay earlier in the thread had me chuckling as well. The "huge pay" we receive for the job was how it was put. I genuinely don't think it is pay that is the problem, it is quality of life, however, looking at pay briefly. In the company that I am about to join someone doing my flying job in my position earns over £120,000 per year, so the "huge pay" comment seems slightly absurd. Obviously I'm not able to jump straight into a similar position with the company that I am in the RAF, but, it is comforting to know that a senior FO earns over £90,000 before allowances!
This next one is going to be inflamitory, but what the hell, I'll give it a go anyway. This is definitely not true of all peeps who stay past there exit point/fail to pvr when the market is so good outside but there is a definite pattern. It is without a shadow of a doubt the "easy" option to stay put and cruise/take the pension. No work required, no uncertainty, job for life etc. It is the difficult option to make the leap, you have to put considerable effort into the process and live with uncertaincy for a while, obviously the rewards are also large when the transition has been made. Looking around the bazars at people who are leaving would indicate that they are the people who are talented pilots with the spark and "nounce" to change things in their life. We are losing GOOD people and some would say retaining the not so good element. Very big generalisation I know, and not true in all respects but contains more than a grain of truth if we are all honest about it.
Well that's all for now, fully expecting some harsh comments back from this post!

Snapper

What you need to do is to be struck down with a mystery allergy that makes you non-deployable to places hot, dusty and sandy (as well as the FI) which somehow manages to miraculously cure itself (temporarily!) when a Flag, sqn exchange (if they still exist!) or some other good (or as good as they get these days) deal appears. Also needs to cure itself when promotion boards sit but reappear when arduous trg courses need to be undertaken.

Of course it would never happen at a secret (and only?) flying base in Norfolk.....:E

What i don't understand is the concept of 'leaving early' when you've got to a pension point. Surely this is 'leaving on time'. I have had many conversations with people trying to decide why there is an exodus at 38/ 16years - the answer is simple - people have had a challenging career, their circumstances have changed, they could do with a change, and guess what - the military is now going to pay them a not insignificant amount forever, so long as they leave!

?
 

I've been observing all this as an outsider now for almost a year but I've got a couple of doubts:

How can you complain beeing deployed beeing a military pilot, i guess it comes with a job especially in a country like the UK with a vast influence and interest overseas and his foreign affair politics.

As pilots we get a chance at another job because we have been in the air force, never forget that!

Yes It's true we all love the lifestyle, the camraderie, the flying and so on but we are adults, allegedly beeing pilots, so let's just leave like real gentlemen just remembering the good old times. We are doing no good to anybody moaning and reminding people and ourselves what's wrong.

I don't know if i'll leave my air force when the time will come but that's how I would like to shaking hands and parting ways.

Cheers

A lot of very valid observations emerging here – how I hope that some notice is taken of them.

Bufe – the RAF is, ‘person for person’, probably the most capable, achieving, (dare I say ‘agile’ – probably not!) Air Force in the world. This is only because of the deep personal commitment of its personnel; we are immensely proud to have earned a place in such an organisation, alongside such extremely capable colleagues, and proud of what we can achieve. It should therefore be no surprise that we find it immensely frustrating to watch, powerless, as so much of what we believe in is eroded.

For some time the operational end of the Service has held it together, whatever the odds, while the support has been stripped away around us – I fear that we are nearing breaking point. ‘Savings measures’ mean ‘let the front-line to cope’ while expecting the same output. Loyalty is expected but if we abandon the families of our personnel, can we really expect to come out on top of that particular conflict of interests? Dental and medical support is fragile enough if you are serving, and a distant memory for families despite the remote location of our MOBs. Quarters are in short supply (despite our diminished strength?) and often in poor condition while the maintenance contracts are a model of appalling service – and yet the rates go up to bring them into line with the civilian sector. In the civilian sector, companies pay handsomely to move their valued personnel. In the RAF it costs you money each time you move somewhere you may not particularly want to go.

I recently sat through several PMA lectures, every one of which had powerpoint bullet points stating the need to increase stability and retention – not one of the presentations offered anything of substance to achieve this laudable goal. If only our problems were powerpoint deep.

I will also join ‘itsonlyme’ in being contentious – it’s a 2-tier RAF: those that work their socks off and those that do not. We know where the division lies and yet PMA insist on this ‘best man for the job’ policy which is code for ‘we don’t have the right people so we will pretend their specialist skills aren’t really necessary’ = more risk at the front line.

For the record, I elected to remain beyond my 38 point, in part at least because I want to make a difference. Increasingly though, I wonder if it is not selfish for me to impose this lifestyle upon my young family – that is where my next decision will be made.

In the RN if you put in your letter you are invited to complete a questionairre and then invited over to have a coffee with the Commodore. Its a very informal chat (He doesn't want you to or try to change your mind) but he just wants to get a feeling on the reasons you have decided to leave.

Couldnt agree more. People join the services at a young age and expect to have a laugh with a good bunch of blokes, travel the world and get pissed. They do that for a few years and then the Mrs and family come along and so they decide to stay...stay until they have collected the pension. Once that is complete its time to go. They are not leaving early...

I think if you were to line up 50 people who have left each one would have a different primary reason for leaving. After all it is a completely personal decision to leave and a very hard one to take.

itsonlyme said
How true that is and in my case was responsible for me having a miserable last two years when I had already made my mind up to go. Once you actually get out here the grass really is greener as I have said many times before. You get all your freedom back and it isn't until you get out that you realise just how repressive being in the military is. That said you forget all the bad stuff very quickly, I remember only the marvellous times and only miss only good people I worked with.

Having watched from the sidelines over the last three years I realise now, that without a doubt I got out at exactly the right time.
:)

I believe most people join the military as a vocation; it isn't a job you 'accidentally' find yourself in. It is the lifestyle and esprit de corps that attract, not to get rich.

This was reflected in the wages paid (lower than that paid to someone of equal ability, drive and willingness to take responsibility) in civi street and the benefits available to counter the balance (low rent, cheap messing, free gym etc). As a volunteer, I was more than happy to accept these ‘terms and conditions’.

However, I like a lot of people feel that I am being treated more and more like an employee who can expect limited (if any) loyalty from the firm. JPA, Pay as You Dine and increasing MQ rents will continue to erode our wage and quality of life. When I tried to discuss the realities of the service with a senior officer in 'Human Resources', he replied to my criticism with the line:

"Well, you have to remember that we have to think 'What would a civilian company do in that situation?'"

Struggle to recruit and retain possibly…

I am going to PVR in the next 4-6 months.

When I joined up (at 16), being in the RAF was all I ever wanted to do. I wanted to be involved with aircraft, serve my country, travel the world and have a laugh with some good mates. I have done all of these, and more !

Some years later, my whole outlook has changed, I do not feel that I am serving 'MY' country. The aircraft I wanted to be employed on are falling apart. The opportunity for Travel has diminished to the point that you can only really travel to Hot, Sandy Sh*tholes, or be almost as far South as it is possible.

Yes, my situation has changed, Im now a married man with a family, and they are the most important thing in the world to me. The RAF does not look after its people well enough to make me want to stay in. The personnel who are so called 'Leaders' or 'Managers' have lost touch with reality. Do they really think all is well with the morale of the RAF? If not, why are they not doing something about it????:confused:

Man, this is a depressing thread. I was enjoying my career up to this point but now I think I’ll PVR.

Seriously though, I did submit a PVR a few years back due to lack of opportunities and challenges. I had decided to join a civilian company paying considerably more than I was earning in the RAF. Then a few months before my exit date (was just about to start resettlement) PMA rang to let me know about a new position that had become available. It was made clear that this was not being offered as an incentive to keep me in, but just some information that I should know about.

I rescinded my PVR and took the new post. Haven’t looked back since, next stop pension.

Just lucky I guess.

Ive been in for 5 years, 4 of those front line multi. I would leave tomorrow if I thought that I would be allowed to. As it stands ive another 2 1/2 years to do to fullfill my return of service. I am undervalued, taken advantage of and not respected. Why would I stay?

Because working for a bankrupt company sucks. No matter what business you're in.:(

Why leave? Because I value me far more than my political masters value me!

I don't mind going to dangerous places every now and again, it's part of the job, I knew that when I signed the dotted line and it can be quite good fun in an odd sort of way. But going used to be interspersed with training and exercises (remember them?). I take the Queen's shilling and when needed put myself in harms way - but it doesn't take long to figure out that living in harms way quite as often as some of us are is just giving the bad guys too big a target, especially with the (lack of) kit we have.

To make it simple to the civvies that keep popping in here and telling us we should expect to get shot it 'cos we're in the military - well yes we should. And we do. But you'd have to be mad to hang around somewhere where they're doing it regularly and any fun stuff has been policed to death!

?
 

Dear Capt Kirk,
I agree with you, probably I don't know much about the support aspects you mention but as far as agile, achieving, flexible I learned to admire the RAF.
Still don't understand pilots having been in the squadron just a few years already complaining and with their life already planned to leave, funny thing I guess that's partly happening in my Air Force as well.
There must be more.
Do you think invading......i don't know Lybia staging out of Ibiza or Sardinia would help?
Cheers
Bufe

We had a brief from Fleet a couple of months ago where they stated that "In working practice there is no such thing as Return of Service"... It is appled (as we all know) but it is probably illegal. They stated 2 cases wgere people tried to leave whilst still shackled to a Return of Service...the 2 individuals paid about £50 a piece for strongly worded letters from solicitors and the Navy backed away.... Im sure the RAF will be the same. They can do without a long protracted court case (which they will lose) and so if you put your letter in accompanied with a solicitors letter Im sure you will find the door being held open wide.

To flesh what Capt Kirk said about support services.

1 Gp was so leaned that there was open sky between a flt lt SO3 and the 2*. The sqn ldr was posted. The wg cdr PVRd and was gapped. The gp capt came late and was then moved. The AC was detached. The other staffs were similarly stretched so there was no possibility of reach across.

One scheme to establish 'task forces' with a leader and helped by 'best man for the job' regardless of rank (flt lt-wg cdr :bored: ) did not get off the ground.

Bring back the old 1 Gp where Ops 1 could cover Ops 2 etc with proper leave rotation across the HQ and no OOA.

While people might hate RAFP and staff weenies in equal measure you do need enough staff to take some of the weight out of the cockpit.

This is a good thread and has spawned many arguments for leaving the RAF (Services) However, is there anyone out there that is staying?

Why do people stay in the RAF ?