Why do people leave the RAF early?
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Why do people leave the RAF early?
I'd like this thread to serve as an info database for PMA. Here's how it works:
We write why we're leaving, they read it, and then do something about it, so that the RAF gets better, and retains the right people in sufficient numbers to work properly.
Please post here what you think is wrong, and any percieved fixes.
Cheers.
And yes, I'm leaving. Not because I want to, but because I feel personally under-valued, cannot see an operationally relevant career progression, and am being paid to leave.
I won't spoil it for everyone else by listing the rest. I just hope the big guys pay attention, because I'd rather stay and I bet most of the rest of us want to as well.
We write why we're leaving, they read it, and then do something about it, so that the RAF gets better, and retains the right people in sufficient numbers to work properly.
Please post here what you think is wrong, and any percieved fixes.
Cheers.
And yes, I'm leaving. Not because I want to, but because I feel personally under-valued, cannot see an operationally relevant career progression, and am being paid to leave.
I won't spoil it for everyone else by listing the rest. I just hope the big guys pay attention, because I'd rather stay and I bet most of the rest of us want to as well.
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Whats a PMA ?
How about doing that via the leaving questionairre and during your interview with the Commodore? That way the correct people get to see why you are leaving and they can feed the information up the correct chain...
There are procedures in place (and have been for many years) for this sort of thing.....why not use them
We write why we're leaving, they read it, and then do something about it, so that the RAF gets better, and retains the right people in sufficient numbers to work properly.
There are procedures in place (and have been for many years) for this sort of thing.....why not use them
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Originally Posted by vecvechookattack
Goo point....whe people leave BA....do they mank and moan for weeks and weeks? do they post messages on the PPrune BA site....or do they just walk?
People often feel 'down' when the career they started many moons ago full of hope and dreams becomes just a way of making a wage because all the 'perks' of service life are chipped away by the bean counters. No wonder they want to have a moan about it. Also the camaraderie is sad to let go of and this upsets some people.
My next door neighbour (an AAC type) is being posted to Germany soon, to an old RAF base in fact. When I joined there were loads of places for an RAF service person to go around the world, now they either seem to be 'owned' by the Army now or are sandy and hot. Very soon the posting choices will be Brize, Marham or Lossiemouth for much of the RAF it seems.
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Not meaning to point a finger at Stacks, but once again, the RAF appears to have forgotten the SH force.
Unless that was a sly implication that he knows more than than he is letting on..........
If you do end up in the SH force though, you're pretty certain to end up in the sandpit, with the occasional det to the UK.
TI
Unless that was a sly implication that he knows more than than he is letting on..........
If you do end up in the SH force though, you're pretty certain to end up in the sandpit, with the occasional det to the UK.
TI
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UnderPowered,
Its a great idea, but you do understand of course that it will never work.
Don't you think all of those faceless and spineless fools called 'AIRSHIPS' already read this forum? How many threads do you think there has been with people explaining why they are leaving, and the genuine reasons for them walking?
The facts are few and simple..........£££££££££££££££££££££££££
Sorry, but you can bleet all you want, nobody is going to take any notice I'm afraid. Nice idea tho'
Kind regards to all
TSM
Its a great idea, but you do understand of course that it will never work.
Don't you think all of those faceless and spineless fools called 'AIRSHIPS' already read this forum? How many threads do you think there has been with people explaining why they are leaving, and the genuine reasons for them walking?
The facts are few and simple..........£££££££££££££££££££££££££
Sorry, but you can bleet all you want, nobody is going to take any notice I'm afraid. Nice idea tho'
Kind regards to all
TSM
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Anecdote from my trade during a meeting with PMA.
"RAF Officer: So then, when are you going to introduce some incentive scheme to keep us in the RAF?
PMA: When we want to keep you in."
Nuff said.
"RAF Officer: So then, when are you going to introduce some incentive scheme to keep us in the RAF?
PMA: When we want to keep you in."
Nuff said.
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I will leave after a little under 25 years because I fancy doing something different. Had a great time, would swap it for nothing. I remember in the early days those knackered old gits bleating about this and that, constantly bashing their pint glasses of the bar with a "it's not the same...." whilst telling us all how wonderful life was in Singapore/FEAF/Ghan etc. Looking back, it appears that not much has changed in that respect.
No bitterness, just time to see what else happens in the World.
No bitterness, just time to see what else happens in the World.
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I left on PVR for three reasons:
1. It was clear that the RAF life was becoming incompatible with family life. It is unrealistic (and extarordinarily bad management) to expect anyone to seriously put their career before their family, except temporarily (exercises etc) or in times of national crisis or war.
2. The gulf between reality and what we were told was reality became quite frankly insulting. The ridiculous base closures and unit cutbacks would in no way increase operational efficiency.
3. The Iraq war was a squalid exercise in deceit that no-one was punished for. If not for the corrosive impact it had on trust in politicians, they would have tried it on again elsewhere.
1. It was clear that the RAF life was becoming incompatible with family life. It is unrealistic (and extarordinarily bad management) to expect anyone to seriously put their career before their family, except temporarily (exercises etc) or in times of national crisis or war.
2. The gulf between reality and what we were told was reality became quite frankly insulting. The ridiculous base closures and unit cutbacks would in no way increase operational efficiency.
3. The Iraq war was a squalid exercise in deceit that no-one was punished for. If not for the corrosive impact it had on trust in politicians, they would have tried it on again elsewhere.
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Originally Posted by South Bound
Anecdote from my trade during a meeting with PMA.
"RAF Officer: So then, when are you going to introduce some incentive scheme to keep us in the RAF?
PMA: When we want to keep you in."
Nuff said.
"RAF Officer: So then, when are you going to introduce some incentive scheme to keep us in the RAF?
PMA: When we want to keep you in."
Nuff said.
The problem with opening a floodgate is, unlike redundancy, it's indiscriminate and it isn't always possible to stem the flow. On the one hand it's clever trying to get rid of people on the cheap - just p!ss them off enough - but what if all the pilots leave and none of the clerks? All the indicators I see/hear lead me to believe there could easily be a manpower crisis in the next 5 years. Talk of people's external plans is a daily occurence - not the odd individual from a few years ago. Of course the country can't go undefended, so as insurance the RAF will have age-old safety measures to turn to if things get too bad - perhaps up the PVR waiting time to 3yrs (remember, EU legistlation is only a guideline with the military), perhaps call-up the RAuxAF/reserve commitment people, or how about some form of conscription to handily tackle our 'undisciplined yoof' problem? Remember, when it comes to national security and 'wars on terror', our rights come second.
But it will only be after we suffer a defeat in battle - which we're still some way off for the time being - that a review of our armed forces will recognise the need to repair the damage of underinvestment, to make military service attractive and retentive, while ensuring kit is the best available and not the result of a politically driven gravy train.
Until we literally cannot do the job - not just bleat to say we can't - until we physically cannot beat an enemy, nothing is set to change.
Last edited by dallas; 25th Jul 2006 at 07:55.
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Increasing the PVR wait time (to 3 years for example) is a negative retention factor in itself and may encourage a catastrophic outflow at one time. There is only far that compulsion can be taken before the whole system falls to pieces.
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Increasing the PVR wait time (to 3 years for example) is a negative retention factor in itself and may encourage a catastrophic outflow at one time. There is only far that compulsion can be taken before the whole system falls to pieces.
'Bored RAF whingers' are automatically regarded as troublesome, but what if we provide an early indicator of what the masses might be thinking? At an accident, if you're trying to save someone's (somethings?) life, check on the quiet ones first...
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Originally Posted by JessTheDog
1. It was clear that the RAF life was becoming incompatible with family life. It is unrealistic (and extarordinarily bad management) to expect anyone to seriously put their career before their family, except temporarily (exercises etc) or in times of national crisis or war.
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Family life has changed somewhat since the 70s - not all for the better!
In those good old days, the wife would stay at home and look after the family. It was easier for hubby to relocate then as compared to now, when wives often have careers that require them to stay in one place. This is one example of where change in society has outstripped change in the Armed Forces. A wife staying at home looking after children disgracefully does not get a full pension at the age of 60 as she is not paying NI.
The "civilianisation" of the Armed Forces is embraced by HMG and MoD on certain occasions, such as when it comes to rises to FQ charges in order to line the pockets of a Japanese bank, oops I mean to bring the charges in line with market sector rent.
The demographics may indeed prove troublesome if many of those who are midway to two-thirds of the way towards a pension decide to pull the plug. This may be exacerbated by the new pension scheme - which pays out on a 35 year maximum period of service and doesn't link with inflation until age 60 - and the lack of provision of boarding schools, family healthcare, cheap housing etc that used to be part of the Service lifestyle. So in later years, many of those striving towards a pension - who will have joined in the last 2 years or so - may decide that the pension is not the incentive it once was, and that there are financial and other reasons for leaving - buying a house (rather than paying high FQ rent), allowing the wife (or husband) to earn a decent salary (and a pension in later life), school places, health and dental care etc.
The real pinch point may well be in 10 years time, the 100th anniversary of the RAF, once the inadequacies of the new pension and of the Service lifestyle become apparent!
In those good old days, the wife would stay at home and look after the family. It was easier for hubby to relocate then as compared to now, when wives often have careers that require them to stay in one place. This is one example of where change in society has outstripped change in the Armed Forces. A wife staying at home looking after children disgracefully does not get a full pension at the age of 60 as she is not paying NI.
The "civilianisation" of the Armed Forces is embraced by HMG and MoD on certain occasions, such as when it comes to rises to FQ charges in order to line the pockets of a Japanese bank, oops I mean to bring the charges in line with market sector rent.
The demographics may indeed prove troublesome if many of those who are midway to two-thirds of the way towards a pension decide to pull the plug. This may be exacerbated by the new pension scheme - which pays out on a 35 year maximum period of service and doesn't link with inflation until age 60 - and the lack of provision of boarding schools, family healthcare, cheap housing etc that used to be part of the Service lifestyle. So in later years, many of those striving towards a pension - who will have joined in the last 2 years or so - may decide that the pension is not the incentive it once was, and that there are financial and other reasons for leaving - buying a house (rather than paying high FQ rent), allowing the wife (or husband) to earn a decent salary (and a pension in later life), school places, health and dental care etc.
The real pinch point may well be in 10 years time, the 100th anniversary of the RAF, once the inadequacies of the new pension and of the Service lifestyle become apparent!
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OverTq
I don't think it's about having to move house every 2-3 years, I don't think it's even about the necessity of multiple out-of-area dets. I don't even think it's about pay.
My job is made 3 times harder by policy that often doesn't make sense. Despite the 'best ideas in the world' me and my mates can't do a thing to improve/suggest things because there is no internal communications policy. While you will readily tell me I don't need one because I'm in the military, what if the higher echelons could benefit from my opinions in forming policy/buying kit without it affecting military discipline? Why not benefit from communicating with people two-way rather than fearing it?
My daily equipment - not the detachment stuff - is old, second rate, often poorly designed and consistently sourced from the cheapest supplier. Nobody has ever asked me what I want or need to do my job better. And when we do get the chance of new kit the presumption has always been that my boss knows all about my job. Let's just say several of my bosses have built careers talking a good job! I need say little more on that subject than JPA.
OOA dets, yeah, they're a core requirement, but why are so many people still on the books who can't deploy? Why am I seemingly from the only country who pay income tax while away or who don't benefit from significantly more cash for being away, such as UN pay in the Balkans? It isn't all about cash, but why should anyone who's unfit ever bother to get fit? So they can go OOA and live in basic conditions for 4 months for essentially no extra money?
And even then, after I've jumped through everyones hoops to get to be away from my family for 4-6 months, I go to Brize to find nobody has bought any new aircraft to get me there - or more importantly get me home - because it doesn't matter to anyone!
For the majority I think you'll find pay is secondary.
I don't think it's about having to move house every 2-3 years, I don't think it's even about the necessity of multiple out-of-area dets. I don't even think it's about pay.
My job is made 3 times harder by policy that often doesn't make sense. Despite the 'best ideas in the world' me and my mates can't do a thing to improve/suggest things because there is no internal communications policy. While you will readily tell me I don't need one because I'm in the military, what if the higher echelons could benefit from my opinions in forming policy/buying kit without it affecting military discipline? Why not benefit from communicating with people two-way rather than fearing it?
My daily equipment - not the detachment stuff - is old, second rate, often poorly designed and consistently sourced from the cheapest supplier. Nobody has ever asked me what I want or need to do my job better. And when we do get the chance of new kit the presumption has always been that my boss knows all about my job. Let's just say several of my bosses have built careers talking a good job! I need say little more on that subject than JPA.
OOA dets, yeah, they're a core requirement, but why are so many people still on the books who can't deploy? Why am I seemingly from the only country who pay income tax while away or who don't benefit from significantly more cash for being away, such as UN pay in the Balkans? It isn't all about cash, but why should anyone who's unfit ever bother to get fit? So they can go OOA and live in basic conditions for 4 months for essentially no extra money?
And even then, after I've jumped through everyones hoops to get to be away from my family for 4-6 months, I go to Brize to find nobody has bought any new aircraft to get me there - or more importantly get me home - because it doesn't matter to anyone!
For the majority I think you'll find pay is secondary.
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You are right that pay is not the major factor. In fact the armed forces are very well paid. A number of years ago pay was a major factor - at 38 you were being paid to leave but with the retention schemes this became less important. Having completed 19 years service in the rotary world i left knowing that i would be taking a significant pay cut. However, the improvement in my lifestyle and being able to make decisions of where i go/what i do far out way the drop in salary. The flying i am now doing is just as good and more rewarding than that in the RAF and i do not have any of the secondary duties/trivia to go with it - i am paid to fly.
So lifestyle is a major factor and that is not even to get started on how the armed forces are being used now, poor defence policy and the same people being sent to the same places time and again with little break.
I enjoyed my service and good luck to everyone still in but there is a time to move on.
So lifestyle is a major factor and that is not even to get started on how the armed forces are being used now, poor defence policy and the same people being sent to the same places time and again with little break.
I enjoyed my service and good luck to everyone still in but there is a time to move on.
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Originally Posted by crabbbo
but there is a time to move on.
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How about doing that via the leaving questionairre and during your interview with the Commodore?
What interview?? The one where the clerk asks you for your ID back?
What interview?? The one where the clerk asks you for your ID back?