Raid on Chemical Bomb factory in London today?
 

News reports here in the USA are reporting the Police raid this morning in London uncovered a "Chemical Bomb" factory. Chilling news if true!

See the link below:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5040022.stm

Air exclusion zone should keep news helos away.

I wonder what a non-chemical bomb would be. :confused:

Green Granite

It would be called 'a bomb':ugh:

"Air exclusion zone should keep news helos away."

and that's a good thing, because.......?

Green Granite, your turn, seems that Tigs didnt do chemistry.

Just as loud, but it wouldn't smell of Harpic :ok:

Because, they clearly don't want free pictures of what they've got getting back to someone.

Sorry Jacko, no offence meant. :sad:
Didn't say it was a good or bad idea but thought i would mention it as it will probably limit coverage, particularly to our American friends (such as SASless) who are used to large amounts of helos covering even minor events( 50mph 'high' speed chases etc!).

Also it was the one gem of aero related business in an article that is otherwise not aircraft related, although worrying for all.

Skunkerama
So thats what they meant when they said we had to invade Iraq. The word chemical actually meant anything organic or inorganic. And here was me thinking it (when applied to a weapon) meant something really nasty that we ought to put a stop to. So instead of saying they had 'chemical weapons', they should have just said they had 'weapons' (which isthe way it turned out anyway).

Just commenting on the fact that you missed GreenGranites subtle joke.

No biggy, lame really.

Rakshasa

Who doesn't want free pix of what, getting back to whom?

If there is a legitimate reason for imposing an air exclusion zone, fair enough, of course, but there does need to be some justification.

I'm not up in arms about it, I just wondered if it's akin to the modern police approach in other areas - which seems to be to high handedly and arrogantly take over an area, inconveniencing the public, without explanation, and often without real need, and all for their operational convenience and/or to avoid oversight.

I remember when a road accident would be coned off (usually closing one or at most two lanes of a three lane motorway) and then quickly measured and photographed before being cleared, and the road re-opened asap. The system worked well, and I know of no incident where re-opening a road quickly seriously prejudiced any subsequent prosecution. And if it had done, then too bad, since keeping traffic moving is probably more important. Now the bug.gers seem inclined to completely close roads at the drop of a hat, and to keep them closed for extended periods, while they do much the same work as before, much more slowly, in case it's a crime scene.

Our whole system of law enforcement relies on policing by consent, and the more the Police are perceived as operating with scant regard to the public, and the more they inconvenience us, the more difficult it will become to gain that consent.

Jacko

I believe it's SOP to have an avoid around suspect terrorist hideouts for the very same reason they have a cordon on the ground - it's not outside the realms of possibility that something they have may be unstable or even rigged.

Either way I don't personally see the public interest in showing looped aerial footage of someone's shed for TV's very own 'experts' to provide wildly speculative commentary on.

Lets wait to see what was in there before we criticise why an AEZ is put in there.....im sure we will understand if the info is released:cool:

Jackonicko

An AEZ is requested for any incident where a bomb is suspected. Be that terrorist, or WW2 device.

The reason being somewhat obvious...big bang, bits go up. Unless you know exactly what size said supected bomb is, your guess as to how high is as good as anyone elses.

There is an element of keeping the press out of the way as well, especially if there is a police air support unit involved. Do they really want to be dodging the press while trying to do a somewhat more important job? No.


As to your opinions of accident scenes, it's like any other crime scene(yes, thats right, crime scene) and the time it's cordoned off, depends on many things, ranging from how long it takes the specialists to get to the scene, to how complex the investigation is.

Yes, Policing is based on consent, but that has to be balanced against protection of life and property, whihch is the primary object of Police in the UK.

Your recollections may have been based on simple accidents, and nothing complicated.

All good reasons, bjcc, with the exception of the 'keeping the press out of the way' of the ASU - normal ATC could surely handle that without a complete AEZ for four days?

As to the increasing tendency of the Police to seal off areas in which they are working, my point isn't really to question why they do it, but why they do it so much more today than they did a few years ago, and why 'preserving the crime scene' (at an RTA, for goodness sake) now routinely outweighs the need to keep traffic moving. I'm particularly intrigued as to why a 'whole carriageway closure' is now routine even when an accident is confined to (say) the hard shoulder.

If the answer is that we now tend to rubber-neck more, making things more dangerous, then I'm all for road closures, but I suspect that it's a high handed and rather arrogant, narrowly focused self interest on the part of the police, in which case it irks me.

Jackonicko

I don't know that we rubber neck any more...it's a hobby as old as car crashes. It didn't really matter that much when 2 cars an hour pass the scene, but have you seen the jams that develop these days on a motorway when someone has a minor dink?

I don't know that police do the things you mention any more than they used too. I certainly remember in '78 being on a cordon for a traffic accident for most of a night duty, it wasn't a fatal, just serious.

As for the AEZ, excluding press for 4 days may be excessive, but until the scene is cleared, then they wont drop it. These days, in terrorist investigations it takes a very long time to clear and then search a scene, apart from very sensible reasons of not wanting to get blown to kindgdom come, everything is carefully searched to prevent some of the mistakes of the past.

Erksome it may be for the aviation industry, but if it gets suspected terrorists off the streets, then it gets my vote.

and i must say WHAT A RESULT if they got it right:ok:

"i would mention it as it will probably limit coverage, particularly to our American friends (such as SASless) who are used to large amounts of helos covering even minor events"

Your comments are a bit non sequitor given the exclusion zone is in the UK.

From a British news source....

As if attending football games wasn't dangerous enough already!:uhoh:

Jacko, I'm as much in the dark as you, obviously, and just speculating. There's many reasons why the rozzers might not want aircraft around, not least because of the risk of setting something off, or security services wanting to keep their cards close to their chest.

I'm not saying they really DO need an AEZ, but there's many possible reasons other than merely wanting to snub the press.

A nuclear device!

NC43

It is now over 40 hours since the raid which involved, according to media reports, some 500 Police Personnel.

One suspect was shot and wounded and, up to now, NO incriminating evidence has been found.

How long does it take to search a pre WW2 Terraced House?

cazatou

It takes as long as it takes.

250 officers actually

Not CSI
 

You may have noticed that British Scene of Crime officers take a rather more realistic viewpoint to gathering evidence than most TV programmes. Partly this is because of previous challenges in court and partly becuase of such minor inconvieiences of real life such as rain.

In serious crime scenes contamination precautions almost always means full body "paper" suits and masks. And depending upon the crime and its location theroom / rooms or house may be sealed by plastic and even have a separate shelter for on site initial processing.

The Soham child murders ended up with the whole house covered in scaffolding and plastic. Some views on Friday seemed to indicate scaffolding and plastic going up at least over the front of the house.

I do hope they got it right this time.:hmm:

The family are already "liaising with their legal team" :hmm: :hmm:

Dont mean that if it aint there that they got the wrong address, i can see a large payout falling the families way if they dont find anything.

although i imagine they`ll be living in a six bedroomed house supplied by the council before long:bored:

The house will be searched by just a few Officers to prevent contimination.

I see the Solicitor for the shot man already has her snout in the legal aid trough!. So the Police sauntered into the house, casually shot the man and then beat him up!. Of course these comments are made in the full knowedge that the Police can't respond!

London Locals?
 

Quote BBC
'But the operation has angered some locals, prompting a leaflet to be circulated announcing a meeting to discuss the raid.'

It is nice to see that the 'locals' are protesting about the freedoms that they are forced to live under. On the news report last night Mrs A_D commeneted that the police may wish to have a chat with some of the 'locals' who are 'doing too much complaining' (her words not mine) about the action.

A quote some people on this site are happy to over use springs to mind about 'local unrest', 'if you don't like it leave'.

Quote "His lawyer insisted he was shot by police, but they have not confirmed they fired the shot and one report suggests his brother was responsible."

Now i WOULD laugh my arse off it it is true, "Man shoots brother in bungled escape bid"

:D

Whilst I do hope it is a "result", it is not far from belief that anything less would be spinned out of all proportion. Nowadays it seems harder and harder to separate spin from fact.

One week on and it would seem that nothing has been discovered at the address that was raided. The Police request to Magistrates for a Custody extension resulted in only a 36 hour extension.

If nothing is found; will the Commissioner accept the blame this time - or will his namesake rally to his aid again?

Perhaps the contributor who cannot spell his "Rank" would care to comment?

ERR! That's YOU Mustard!!

Well, Well Well what did the met discover........Okay, so a chemical bomb belt wasn`t found but a large quantity of kiddie porn.
1 arrested for it and a IPCC report into the incident which states

"Based on the findings of an independent forensic scientist, the IPCC has concluded that the discharge was an accident as a result of contact on a narrow staircase between the police officer and the man who was shot."

To me this would indicate a struggle of some sort.

Lets kick this thread into life again

Colonic Moutard,

To me it would indicate the Policeman had his finger on the trigger. I am not blaming him , rather the "Intelligence" that sent them there. Who, after all, pays the bill for putting the place back together again?

Why release the information that alledged "pornographic material" had been found on a computer belonging to one of the persons arrested in the original raid? That would surely guarantee that any conviction would be quashed on "Appeal" given the high profile of the original raid and the fact that NO criminal charges have been brought so far against either of the brothers.

In that part of London "Secondhand" computers are freely sold in the local markets. In fact, with the viruses that circulate these days, most computer users should be concerned that they could face criminal charges over the contents of their computers if the "Fuzz" ever had access to them.

Let the buyer beware. The offence is to be in possession of it.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a clear concept - if the prosecution prove that the files are there and you were in possession of the computer, the only possible defence is to prove they were put there by somebody else without your knowledge. That could be quite difficult.

Perhaps the fact that knew what was in his computer was what caused him to struggle? Otherwise, why would he risk being chargd with attempting to avoid arrest?

"As to the increasing tendency of the Police to seal off areas in which they are working, my point isn't really to question why they do it, but why they do it so much more today than they did a few years ago, and why 'preserving the crime scene' (at an RTA, for goodness sake) now routinely outweighs the need to keep traffic moving. I'm particularly intrigued as to why a 'whole carriageway closure' is now routine even when an accident is confined to (say) the hard shoulder"

Straightforward enough.

1. protection of the scene to prevent further collisions and injury to the emergency services workers

2. road death standards are now governed by the ACPO road death investigation manual (google it and you will find it) - and rightly so. Someone is usually to blame and should be brought to justice for their involvement. It is very rarely an 'accident'

3. Families want and deserve answers - as the two I have on the go at the moment would tell you.

4. In these days of the highest level of scrutiny at court, the highest level of forensic investigation is required.

and it also gets things like this under way:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/5225062.stm

Crazy toad

ever thought that once the news reached the brothers that their computer was being examined that the defence solicitor (through anonymous lines) releases partial news to the press that images of some kind are contained within....

thus in turn creating media calls to the met who of course cannot deny or confirm whether the suggestions are true (this in itself ends up leading most journos to believe they are, and printing the story).......

Hence if charges follow the solicitor can argue (and appeal if needs be) that the trial would be biased and the defendant didn`t receive a fair trial....:D

Black Sheep,
Do a google search on the term mens rea.
Example from the Emerald Toilet: If a weapons cache is found on a farmer's land, it would be incumbent upon the prosecution to establish that the landowner was aware of its presence in order for the court to render him culpable.

As regards the shooting, it may have been an accident as a point of civilian law but, IMHO, an ND is an ND. I wonder if a) the officer will face a hoofing big fine from the Met; b) the ceilings of the cells in Paddington Green nick will be buffed to a high finish and/or c) the tourists in Traffy Square will be treated to the sight of a copper jogging around, knees to chest, with a shell above his head?