Typhoons an Raptors
 

Hi

I'm hearing rumours of two Typhoons in the United States (China lake) that are being used for DACT for the Raptors, As expected the BVR side is dominated by the Raptors, but WVR the Typhoons are!!.

Is PIRATE being used?

Is this going to be a regular thing???

Cheers

So....translated that means using the proper tactics....the Typhoon is dogmeat.:ok:

One would think you fight the opponents weakness not his strengths.

And of course your ROE are always going to allow BVR engagements! :ugh: I thought you trained for 'worse case' scenarios – not to back-up the manufacturer’s blurb

But Maple....as I understand it the Typhoon has no gun. Even with the improved effieciency of modern missiles for dogfighting...is not the Typhoon at a disadvantage in that regard?

(You are right....our Brass will set us up for failure with the ROE's even if we had Death Rays.):sad:

My understanding is that the Raptor smokes its opponents in every facet one would expect from a 5th generation fighter....well you would hope so at US$350 Million a piece if they close the lines down at 183 frames...! (Still sorting the canopy up/down issue but that's another story!) :ugh:

Is there an enemy out there that the Raptor will ever face...probably not!!???

Typhoon however, being a jet "Fitted For" but "Not With", will face the wrath of politicians and public alike who have lost faith in a well overdue program that doesn't seem to be able to redeem itself.

Standby for completely unnecessary operational deployments of both types to try and restore public confidence in the platforms. :rolleyes:

Vive Le France...:D

Am I correct that you Brits are not buying ammunition for said gun?

OB,

We are not supposed to know that....besides why should it matter they have a very expensive piece of ballast and all they can do is throw up two up raised digits at the enemy when they run out of missiles.

Typhoon wiped the floor with Raptor in singapore.

It's not just the aircraft - it's the man in the cockpit. And on those terms, we'll win every time. Dry your eyes and deal with it.

My understanding was that the gun wasn't actually a gun more of a big gun shaped paper weight to help trim the Typhoon? Don't get me wrong i think it's great... Who needs a gun when it looks that good? :}

LM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...FGUNF-2202.jpg

Lets hear it for the Hornet driver!:D

When was the Raptor in Singapore? Do you mean Rafale?

That Hornet is nose down with almost no energy. I hope he doesn't have anything he needs to do for the next 15-20 seconds...

I suspect there's a lot more to this story than the HUD image is telling us...

Magoo

Some interesting figures in tha HUD shot.

As they say, fly it like you stole it.

The RAAF does have outstanding aircrew; just one will run out of them so quickly if the balloon goes up with some coming threats out there (Think Spratly Islands and/or Taiwan).

Unfortunately, the same applies for the RAF.

All too soon, it will be the same for us.

Next image in the sequence. Inside the 1000ft TR bubble.
http://www.stevelanephotography.co.u...f18fgunf22.jpg

Raptor was never in the SIngapore competition. Typhoon, Rafale and F15E were. Typhoon was knocked out of the competition early doors, and F15E eventually won.

A bad workman always blames his tools/or political master. Just buck up your ideas, stop crying into your G&T and get on with the job for heaven's sake. It's what your paid to do.

"Well overdue program that doesn't seem to be able to redeem itself."

Overdue, certainly, but isn't every fighter programme? F-22 and JSF certainly are.

As it is the delayed ISD seems to have been good for budgets and for completing (or getting close to completing) some difficult development aircraft.

As to redeeming itself, the aircraft seemed to impress in Singapore, even if BAE's 'shambolic bid performance' did not, and even if Mindef eventually decided that there was too much risk that the advanced EOC1/2 A-G capabilities it thought it needed might not be available in the timescale promised. The capabilities it did demonstrate (especially radar range and the eye-watering exchange ratio against Sing F-16s apparently impressed the RSAF enough to disagree with Mindef.

It also seems to have redeemed itself with those lucky enough to be flying it, unless the RAF and the other partners have introduced a term at RADA as part of the OCU course.......

The frightening thing is how much misinformation and sheer malicious bollocks has been embedded in the minds of even those who should know better.

Until yesterday, I thought, like many, that the early Tranche 1 jets were incapable of being brought to a really useful op standard. I now know that all but a couple of Luftawffe jets are already under contract for a series of upgrades that will bring them to the full FOC standard (Block 5 with 'austere' A-G capability) and a further upgrade to Tranche 2 (Block 8) standards is cheap and easy enough that Austria's six T1 jets will be done at EF GmH's own expense.

And that is only the tip of the iceberg of damaging LM/Dassault propaganda and auto-foot shooting.

As to what Typhoon has been up to in the States, some of it is necessarily not something to shout about, but I understand that some achievements that could and should have been shouted from the rooftops seem to have been covered by the same security blanket. I believe that 17 haven't only fired ASRAAM, but getting confirmation of the alleged AMRAAM firings is like pulling teeth.

And no RAF jets have PIRATE yet.

WASHINGTON, May 16 (Reuters) - .......Earlier this month, the Air Force said it would cost about $100 million to fix structural weaknesses discovered in 73 F-22s. It denied a published report that the repairs could cost $1 billion...... :ooh:

Both the Typhoon and the F-22 were designed to dominate the BVR threat, defined at the time as Su-27, improved Su-27 and whatever the follow-on might be.
Both are better at that than their predecessors. However, until the fighter sensor people, the offboard-sensor people and the network-type people can defeat a well designed and functional stealth aircraft, the F-22 has a huge advantage and so far I have not heard of any tactical dirty tricks that can offset it.
However, it cost so much money that the RAF expects to have more Typhoons than the USAF has F-22s.

Which is sad for both the RAF and the USAF as the numbers for each really should be higher.

If anyone bothers blowing up the picture of the HUD that SASlesshas posted,you will clearly see that is NOT a Typhoon.
The 'repair' program I know about but can't say anything else on here,suffice to say there is a fix.

Laze,

Your predjuice is showing.....I posted it because it is an F-22 in the cross hairs.

Any aircraft can be shot down...the Spitfire was the "greatest" fighter of WWII according to some.....and what was it's loss rate?

The F-22 and Typhoon are top notch new generation aircraft. Each has its strong points and each has its weak points. Tactics and supporting combat systems will determine if each are as good as they are being made out to be.

When fighters tangle.....there are losses on both sides. The key is to sway the odds to one's own side by all means possible. Having enough airframes and fully capable pilots is one of the factors to that equation. If one does not have enough in numbers, or enough support, that can lead to a stunning defeat no matter how good the few are.

I assume that was to lasernigel, not me. I'm aware that, in a WVR knifefight, the winner is usually the best/luckiest pilot.

I'll take that bet - more RAF Typhoons than USAF F-22's.

Surely most likely is GB dumping Typhoon T3 to free funds for JSF that are half the price, bring in zillions to brit companies and can ....wait for it... fly off scottish carriers.

Cheaper - check, more taxes - check, more scottish jobs - check. Where do I sign?

PS Tough to knock Singapore for chucking Typhoon when Typhoon "advanced A-G" is just a wishlist bullet on an unfunded program's transparency. Seemed to show equal distain for frenchie promises to fix their radar.

You are on drugs. The share we get for every JSF is already set - who ever they are sold to around the world. Lowest cost production contract on the component. But, since the vast majority of the components are produced elsewhere, thats where the profit goes.

With Typhoon we have a much higher direct production input including a production line. A lot of the wages/costs/money is internally recycled in the UK, as is our share of any profits.

Bottom line, we make a lot more bottom line profit per Typhoon for each one we buy, plus a guaranteed profit for every Typhoon or JSF anyone else buys.

Now, who, BAe or Treasury, makes most on an individual contract, and whether anybody is clever enough to work it out, is another question.....

hey ORAC, I think you're on to something there..you're spouting the same garbage that every leftie has spouted for the last fifty years...buy British..put more money into british pockets be dammed what we get.

For once lets buy the capability that will do the business for the forces, not the crap that gets votes. The Typhoon may be a great fighter and fun for the guys that fly it, but its not the answer for the 2015 timeframe.

I've had a quick scan of the other threads you've commented on....been a busy boy haven't you. I really hope you don't work for the forces, or if you do you you apply the same vigour to your day job.

Saw somethign odd written above - that WVR best pilot and luck are the deciding factors....for equal aircraft yes, for unequal aircraft no.

The luckiest Jaguar driver in the world will get raped every time by unlucky Fulcrum driver with HMS. The most competent F104 driver ever will really struggle against su-30MK driver new to the frontline.

It's never a case of 'Airborne Top Trumps' but you have to be realistic.

Sorry ORAC.....just a quick appendix to my last post

7,396 posts since July 2000....bloody hell that 3.38 per day...including holidays and weekends, I really, really hope your not a member of our forces.

You really need to get out more.....Surf for porn its a better time well spent!

and again ORAC...

I just check....you posted 19 comments today alone...is that all you could fit in before stand easy! Honestly, if you're a pilot - give up your flying pay then we could maybe afford another Typhoon or two!

Hope the guys out there in China Lake are doing fine.

FJWOEU?

Me, ex SAOEU. :{

Cheers fellahs.

Is the Schooner bar still there? :E


Many memories.


Regards

Talk Wrench

"Surely most likely is GB dumping Typhoon T3 to free funds for JSF that are half the price, bring in zillions to brit companies and can ....wait for it... fly off scottish carriers."

Half the price? It's legally impossible for the UK to pay less for its F-35s than the US customer. Though we're required to sign up to Production Sustainment at the end of 2006, committing to aircraft numbers and line positions, and to agree to financial penalties if we subsequently withdraw, we're expected to do so blind, with no price being set (with no input from us) until 2011.

That's on a programme with such a mismatch between the completion of development tasks and production investment that the GAO, McCain's committee and others want it dramatically slowed down.

That's for an aircraft that can't carry UK day one weapons, and won't carry any of our key weapons until the end of the next decade.

And that's for an aircraft on which, if we don't get ITAR waivers, we won't be able to sustain, support, upgrade or integrate our own kit.

And it's an admittedly excellent LO bomb truck, with a great radar and avionics, but with a modest t/w ratio, no supercruise, and an unimpressive combat persistance.

[irony]I can see that's so much more necessary than Typhoon Tranche 3.....[/irony]

Hey dirty bugger,

No, not in the armed forcs any more, earning a lot more outside now thanks. But its nice to have an admirer who does so much research on me. Obviously hit a nerve. You don't work for LM do you? :E

ps, 0414 GMT, I get up early too..... :}

No longer FJWOEU, now 41(R) Sqn based at Coningsby. Looks most odd to see F3, GR4 and Harrier in 41 Sqn colours but at least it keeps the sqn number going.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y15...6/Harrier1.jpg

“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.” - Damon Runyon

There seems to be an emerging if unspoken consensus here that, for the UK, JSF and Tranche 3 are alternatives.

Orac, name of game is production contracts awarded to brit factories, not royalties. You want 10's of billions worth of JSF business then you gotta order the sucker in decent quantities. No free ride. No pass go & collect $200. Go deep and the question morphs to do you want brit mil aerospace after EF is done? Without US partnerships aren't Bae & R-R left staring over a cliff?

Jacko,
sigh, picks up stick, approaches deceased equine..

assumption that US law forces export customers to pay US R&D costs is bogus. Shoot the nark that told you that.

UK will pay same UPC/recurring cost/flyaway as US i.e. $45m/$59m/$62m by variant according to latest. And yeah, I know it'll go up. Plus UK's generous contrib to development costs of 2ish billion pounds of which Gordo's coughed up about half.

So even the most Gucci USN model (which enquiring minds read is inching back onto brit wishlists) will cost the UK less in dollars than Typhoon in pounds. Roughly half price.

Ignoring money grubbing, not clear why if EF is so good at the Red Baron stuff and JSF is bomb trucker par excellence, why you're not begging for a mix n'match. Lobby for both and buy some Bae stock would be my advice.

BTW, ITAR waivers and getting UK design rights are two different things.

We're going to pay £19 Bn for Typhoon regardless, either in payment or in penalties. The unit cost including R&D is therefore an irrelevance.

Each Typhoon's unit production cost is less than £45 m ($84.58m US, €66.26m).

Through life costs will be somewhere in the region of 200% of that figure, and are contractually guaranteed, together with defect rates, TBOs, etc.

We pay for Typhoon in £ sterling, and not in $ US, so there's a massive benefit to the balance of payments, and much of the money flows straight back into the exchequer in corporate and personal taxation.

No-one believes the JSF's quoted costs/prices, least of all the GAO. If we buy 82 aircraft (which seems to be the latest figure) then we've already paid out somewhere in the region of $24 m per jet, with the actual purchase price due to be set in 2011. Even if the $59 m figure were to be maintained we'd be paying $83 m per JSF and $84 m per Typhoon. Still sure that JSF will be cheaper than Typhoon then?

And through life costs are calculated to be equivalent to 300-400% of purchase price.

Which makes JSF a significantly more expensive jet.

And we don't need the niche capabilities it offers that Typhoon doesn't, with the possible exception of carrier capabilities. And if we do need it, then we need relatively tiny numbers and we need to be able to support, sustain, maintain, upgrade and integrate our own kit, and that's why the continued absence of the ITAR waiver we were promised is a show-stopper.

And it won't carry our 'Day One' weapons, and we can do the job better with TLAM and stand off than with JSF.

As to UK production of the rear fuselage, we can only be replaced if someone else can offer better value, and with Samlesbury up, running and tooled, that's unlikely.

Ah the holy grail of procurement - the uncancellable program. I don't think so. Doesn't current deal just say work can't drop in euro factories if UK numbers cut back? Couple obvious ways to do that without costing a penny. And then again, all the partners could just agree to change the rules couldn't they?

All Typhoon R&D is water under the bridge? I don't think so. Not if you want that fancy A-G. And don't forget you'll need extra cash to bring early frames up to latest standard.

On the other hand, all UK JSF R&D funding will be paid by Christmas. Sweet.

JSF TLC twice Typhoon's? I don't think so.

So R&D favors JSF. Production costs favor JSF. Assume same TLC so what's left? Oh yeah, each Typhoon is still twice the price. Ba boom.

Which is borne out by the current Norwegian experience. Twice as many JSF's at the same price.

Bombing bad guys in high threat neighborhoods a niche capability? I don't think so.

Bae the only place that can build fighter back ends? I don't think so. I doubt very much whether an order as small as 82 will keep production work in the UK. Bunch of congressmen right now think the Uk is getting too sweet a deal. Only buy that few and they'll be really pissed.

Why does this feel like mythbusters?

My advice is to drop the jingoism & dodgy math. Presumably sells your spotter monthly stuff - yankee's screwin' us again, read all about it - but a lot less than useful for a reasonable debate .

BTW, ITAR waiver won't get you design rights. You think once you get the waiver you'll get every US technology? You wish.

Just to go back to the Gun shot.
I really hope he didnt claim that as valid. The Sqn weapons instructor will be crying into his beer!:}