New FRI
 

Any word on a new FRI. I heard a couple of colleagues discussing this topic yesterday and was wondering how the lords and masters view the current aircrew exodus. How will they put an end to it. Is it just Sqn Ldrs they need or what?

I understand that FRI 3 is on its way as an attempt to stem the outflow of trained pilots. I believe that it will be carefully targetted so I would guess that you can expect it to be targetted at FJ and Helo mates and probably at Flt Lt rank. Sadly I am probably too old for this one :{ But then again this is a Rumour network and what do I know!:E .

Yep, that makes sense. Although on a not so recent trawl of SO2 jobs at Gp, PMA were appartly delighted that all posts were manned. Then someone advised them that 35% of those jobs were gapped with some mates having 2 or 3 portfolios.

If anyone has any news/rumours on this can they post, please. Life-changing decisions to be made!

I'm assuming this is for 1 Apr 2007 onwards when the current system is due to end?

Thanks

ps in the spirit of PPRuNe I should add: My jets better than your jet, I'm more important than you, the army and navy are wothless and you dont have an opinion cos you dont know what I know.:hmm:

Yep - but there is already a system in place for people with exit dates before 1 Apr 07 (£50k gross/£30k net). If your exit date is 1 Apr 07 or later you will currently get nothing for staying in, if I recall correctly.

Although we all know that if you work it out you will be much better off in the long run if you leave, there is a big temptation for people to take the easy option of do nothing - get 30 grand in your bank account.

And don't forget of course, that if you are on an FRI now and they decide not to renew it you have three months to accept the change of conditions. If like me you decide not to, they cannot stop you from leaving at the end of that three month period. Not a lot of people know that!
Handy if you should have a job lined up..
:D

Gorilla,
That is a very important bit of info. Where is it written down? If true it will directly affect my decision process in the next few months.
Flo

FRI for all three services??
 

FRI might be on the cards for FJ and blue coloured helicopter crew but in the green machine there are more aircrew than they know what to do with and that's not getting any better.

On a general FRI point, I've never believed in paying everyone the same whether front seat/back seat/FJ/rotary/multi. Its expensive madness. If you're short of rotary mates for the next few years then rotary mates get the bonus, if you're short of navs(:eek: ) then they get the bonus. Everyone else just get on with it. Don't pay knackered 48 year olds who are never going to do anything but stay in. It aint rocket science. So why do "they" do it?

:)

FRI 2?? It is £50k gross but it's only £29500 net (40% income tax and about £500 in NI contributions - that appeared on the following month's statement; sneaky b@stards!).

Still it made sure I had enough money in my account for the crowning turd in the waterpipe that is JPA...:ok:

LJ

Nose Gunner
True, the knackered 48 year olds, as you put it, are the experienced and probably taught you all you know.
They have to remain there for the distance to get the pension - it's too late for them to aspire as CAS
Please explain your petulance and arrogance - are you destined to be a future CAS or a knackered 48 year old ?
With your attitude, I wouldn't even risk money on you achieving your 48th birthday
Tesco are recruiting people over age 48, paying differential rates, depending on the job, which must be a safer option for you in the longer term:8

Axial Flo

Check your PM's.

TG

Buoy15

didn't think NG was being either of those things, just articulating the simple financial certainty that FRIs must be focussed on those to whom it will retain, where retention is in the best interests of the Service. I am sure we all think we are worth a nice big handout, but if our individual specializations are not causing problems, why pay us to stay if we are going to anyway?

Buoy

Southbound got my point, a few more chill pills required for you, I think!

Not only knackered 48 year olds but knackered back-seat 48 year olds taught me a fair bit! And of the 2 CAS/old git options I will probably expect to be a knackered 48 year old waiting for my 55 point - and certainly wont expect the treasury to give me a "retention incentive" at that point!

And are you saying that from my last post you think I will die early? Doesnt sound good.:uhoh:

And.......breath out......relax :)

NG

We all understand where you're coming from, but I think you missed something. Most 48 year-old, flt lt aircrew already have a massive retention incentive - PAS and the new AFPS05! Together, these give the lucky recipients a pension at age 55 that (in many cases) betters a wg cdr's.

The problem that now faces PMA is to encourage younger career spine personnel to stay. However, because there are strict limits to the number of PAS that can be signed on, we have developed a demographic bulge of aircrew that prevents us from keeping younger guys by offering them PAS.

I'm really not sure how they can get themselves out of this one - other than by reducing PAS pay and redirecting that money to career spine aircrew. :eek:

Yep - we all agree, but we keep saying things like I agree more!

The thread is about FRI, not PAS or retention. Apologies to the OP - it seems to have gone a bit off track. So, does anybody have any info on the plans for FRI?

Apparently, all pilots are going to be paid a King's Ransom annually, just to keep us in the mob...

Or b)...

There is an interesting argument that goes...

... if it costs £X million to recruit and train a pilot and we are getting Y years service out of them on average before they disappear off to the airlines, and we want some of them to stay on for another Z years, then anything less than X/Y per year is a bargain. Hmmmm, if you believe the blurb that it costs at least £3M per pilot and we get 16 years out of them (which we don't!), then the financial argument says anything up to £187500 PA is a good deal, especially when the crews are already effective, don't need to do 3 years training/holding/growing up...

Not that I think that is a good idea....:ok:

NG
I'm sorry, but I thought the "R" in FRI stood for Retention! The fact is that they are all very closely related and you can't talk about one thing without mentioning the other.

It hardly makes sense to offer someone an FRI at age 36 then not offer him PAS at age 38/40. But at the same time to have a large, ageing team of PAS who are not being replaced due to their high cost.

Gets my vote!

:E

16B

I find myself in a relatively unusual position. I joined to serve my country and will continue to do so as long as I can...I have no desire to leave the service of our country (although I would love to have words with Tony Blair...didn't we used to execute traitors?). I will stay in at my option (if they'll have me) regardless of an FRI or not. However, I know from speaking to virtually everybody I work with that I am in a minority of not much more than one. I May leave (and emigrate) after 5 yrs as PA however (if I get it!), ...just as soon as the pension is sorted, if I see no light at the end of the miserably dark and foreboding tunnel that New Labour are driving this country in to. For the rest of you out there wondering whether to stay or go, what would sway it for you?
We all should understand that a caring environment and an honest Gov't are not realistic, so please be mercenary...how much for how long?

From crewroom chit-chat this post is not far from the truth. A six figure sum is being mentioned. Apparantly some big wig to do with the Trg side of aircrew has submitted some fairly bold facts.....

Watch this space.............

I think I might wet myself if they offer me 6 figures to stay in...

Personally I will hide in a corner and cry like a small girl if they offer certain aircrew that much cash. Not that I can't see the financial argument (perfectly logical really), but I WANT SOME!

Me me me, self self self. Going down to the bottom of my garden to eat worms...

:{

A six figure sum would have me running straight to PSF (sorry, "HR") screaming "where do I sign?" - and I have given SERIOUS consideration to PVRing recently....go figure, it works.

Of course, If it turns out that the 'careful targetting' means me missing the bracket by a gnat's cock, that will just be another big 'push' factor......so be careful about your 'careful targetting'......

And it would HAVE to be a six figure sum AFTER tax...not the usual con of the Treasury giving with the left and taking with the right.

16B

Ah yes, but careful targetting could lead to increased departures in other areas leading to more careful targetting until it goes around in a great big circle and all the aircrew get a payrise!

Personally I vote for UAVs....;)

guys,

6 figure sums! good luck to you.

If it's true i'll be choking on my first class curry's for the next 20 years! (my new imporoved retirement date:mad: ) Seem to remember the same figures/logic being talked about in the mid 90's when i was digging my escape tunnel out of QRA. Didn't quite happen :{

fingers crossed. :ok:

I have a cunning plan! They could tell us we are getting a new FRI, paid through JPA, send us all out to Iran for the next installation of Blair vs The Rest, see how many of us come back and then cancel it as we will have lost that many aircraft we have no need to retain aircrew! Obviously all written with tongue firmly in cheek........................... although?

I wouldn't get too excited guys. Although the current figures allegedly show us to be quite badly short of pilots, when the required number is revised downwards in the next set of figures released (FY06) we'll probably magically be about in balance. I expect the same thing will happen next year too until we've reached that new, downsized, RAF in a couple of years time.

It's only then that the real problem will start - when they can't stop the outflow but want to maintain a constant number of pilots. But of course - by then it will be far too late to do anything about it! It probably is already actually!:sad:

LFFC is right. There is nothing to get excited about. I dont reckon Innsworth are too fussed right now.

I have an offer of PA and when I rang up and asked the DO if I could extend it, he was not too keen at first but eventually gave me an extra 3 months to decide, and he was not that bothered really. If they were really that concerned would they not be chatting to the guys nearing their IRD desperate to find out what they intend to do ? Or outlining options available to those who decide to stay in as an incentive.

With all the upheaval right now my head says "leave", my heart "stay" and the wife is just pissed off that I cannot make a decision.

6 figure sums would be nice but can anyone really see it happen? No chance.

That's the real problem. They have to let young people leave because that's the cost-effective way of doing things. Rather that than make us PAS aircrew redundant! Just think how much that would cost!

No further rumours of a 6 figure sum, the talk now is of a salary package in line with military doctors. circa £90k.

Anyone?:confused:

I'll happilt wait with bated breath for anything like that; although I would assume that any massive salary packages are best reserved for those around or beyond their IPP, rather than those of us with a handful of tours until then!

Edit; where's this "talk" coming from? There's more talk of ATPLs than retention round my way!

I can't see the financial argument at all. Everyone quotes these mythical "it costs £4M to train a fast jet pilot" lines, but where does that figure come from? I'd bet it's more a case of the training system costing IPSx£4M per year to run, rather than there actually being a cost of £4M for everyone we shove into IOT. So if you need an extra couple of pilots, you don't actually have to pay an extra £8M; you just make a couple of training courses 12 people instead of 10. The only extra it's costing you is the pay and benefits for your extra officers.

There is a new FRI on the way, according to a very good mate at PMA who is involved in the process. No detail on how much or who it will be targetted at, but he says it is definately coming - probably to be announced in the near future, as people are now making their go/no-go decision based on the fact that they will not be getting an FRI post Mar 07.
If they wish to retain people who are coming up to option decisions now (1 year left until IPP), then they need to let people know if there will be an FRI for them, or accept that they will lose them. I know lots of blokes who will miss the current FRI (some by weeks), who are going to leave - a few won't stay for all the money in the world, but I know at least 3 (very experienced front-line QHI's), who have said that circa 100k would keep them in, but less probably wouldn't - this is not a demand, as they are all prepared to leave, but the RAF must accept that if it wants to keep people such as this, it may have to stump up some cash.

This is a very thorny subject, and without defending them, PMA will never be able to please everyone. On the subject of FRIs, the amount offered will never be quite enough for some people, it won't be across the board, and inevitably somebody will miss the qualifing date by a few days and be pissed off. If 33+ yr olds are targetted then, for example, there will be 29 yr old ME captains/co-pilots who are attractive enough when the airlines are recruiting heavily and might well leave on the basis there may not be a glut of jobs when they get to their 16/38 (or 18/40) point. Airline recruiting has been cyclical in the past - whether that will remain the case, who knows?

Increasing pay (flying pay) will reach everyone, across all ages, but is it too expensive? Consider this, if pay goes up by £10,000 a year (over current levels) at say 38, then somebody staying in to 55 will get an extra £170,000 compared to today - look at it as a £170,000 FRI (£100,000+ after tax) but spread over 17 years. The above example was post 38, but flying pay could be increased as far back down the age bracket as the RAF wants to retain.

Unfortunately, increasing pay as per the example above means that when the RAF does not have retention as a priority then it is still paying out the money - but then that is where the retention at 38 (40) quota should manage your manning levels!

Of course increasing flying pay will further increase aircrew/non-aircrew friction, "you should have worked harder at school2 jokes, etc........

Well, it seems that the chickens are coming home to roost just as I warned...

Contractorisation only works in the short term, it is unsustainable unless the contractor has a guaranteed supply of staff. Which they haven't - they rely on a few people staying with them, but seem blisfully unaware that there is no-one there to replace them when they ultimately retire.

So - the prick who dreamed up the idea doubtless got his promotion and probably his 'K' some years later, but everyone else has to pick up the pieces.

Take the UAS world, for example. In the big picture, it costs cock all. It was an ideal way for new QFIs to learn their craft and gave them a bit of a break from the front line. Their enthusiasm attracted many undergraduates into the RAF who would otherwise never have considered it. But no, some Air Marshal who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing has to decide that He Knows Better. Now there are fewer QFI opportunities, fewer 'rest tours' from Bliar's wars - so more pilots decide FIIQ, pull the B&Y and off to the airlines they go.

Then someone realises that Houston - we have a problem. Sorry, too late. Even squillions of short term cash won't overturn the descent of a once proud RAF into its own high speed spiral dive of destruction, the warning signs of which were there for all to see some 4 or 5 years ago. But the self-perpetuating pillockry were more interested in their next promotions and turned a blind eye - and now it's time to recover. Hauling back on the control column by offering huge bribes won't work - the spiral will just tighten further.

The solution - take a long hard look at the way things were 10-15 years ago, clear out the bull****, tedium and general crap which has crept in ever since, abandon the creeping cancer of contractorisation such as MFTS and FSTA, for example, and get back to an RAF with the high standards of the past.

But I fear it'll all be too late.

Look at the nonsense of JPA and all that goes with it. The last straw for many, I'll bet.

NoseGunner - as a 48+ (but not knackered) I do not see much point in firing more money at me, but........I can leave at 6 months, or less, notice and then there would be a bit of a short-term scrabble around to find out who is going to keep the younger monkeys on the straight and narrow!
But please feel free to confuse me by firing more moolah my way!!

Beags - you missed LEAN and all that jazz - I don't feel I'm quite in a 'spiral to destruction' but the old sense of humour is tested daily to its limits

Will you need the money when wearing the army air corps green?:oh:

In short, in the last year or so I haven't spoken to one person who intends to stay past their pension point, and quite a few are seriously considering their option.

I think this is largely due to a quality of life issue - something the Gov't seems to think Forces personnel are immune to. In the longer term more thought needs to be given to improving this issue. A handful of people will stay in 'come what may' because they are exceptionally loyal (or can't be arsed to leave!) but most will only take so much being messed around before they leave. The Forces have to move with the times; fewer people stay in one job all their lives, and if people want to change careers they switch on the internet and all the opportunities in the world open up. If the RAF wants to keep its people it needs to make itself an attractive employer - simple fact.

I think an FRI would work in the short term, as it did a few years ago. No doubt the real size of the problem is being masked by a shrinking Air Force that doesn't need to make redundancies across the board because people are leaving anyway! When the RAF tgt size is hit in a couple of years and the PVRs and Options are still rolling in then it may well be too late to do anything about it.

I heard third hand info the other day that in the Danish Air Force a massively unpopular move from Aalborg to Skydstrup (sp?) caused half the sqn Engineers to leave, and now the F-16 force is barely operational because the jets are unserviceable and the pilots are getting about enough hours a month to stay current. There's a lesson in there if the RAF looks hard enough.....if people aren't happy in their job they will leave it!

I've heard that the retention of pilots per-se is not the most pressing issue, the issue is that the overwhelming majority of sub-38 yr old Sqn Ldrs are taking their 38 option. (understandably) It's the Flt Cdr/HQ jobs that are suffering more than the pilots-in-cockpits situation. Apparently.