As an outsider and non military person this may not be my place to comment, and this has probably been covered before, But:

As the two new carriers are the biggest ships the RN have ever had, why cannot they be fitted with conventional steam cat. and arrester gear to operate conventional aircraft and give inter-operabality with our allies?
There appears to be plenty of room for an angle deck for landing.

Why do we need a STOVL aircraft which by its very design is not going to be as capable as a non STOVL type?

Just wondering.

dixi188

Quite a long time ago in this story (sorry mess / debacle / fiasco / utter fiasco / pi$$ing of cash up against the largest wall in Christendom) it was decided that the CVF was to "convertible" from STOVL to cats'n'traps (CATOBAR) - around 2002 IIRC, though those closer to the project will give you the exact date.

If I understand the detail correctly, HMS QE is probably too far along to be converted until its first major refit, but HMS PoW can be completed with cats'n'traps (which is what the RN - entirely sensibly - wanted all along as far as I can work out). Well, we'll find out next week...

Hope this helps

S41

And this rolling goat f**k of a procurement process sums up our country totally.

Millions of office weenies with shiny arses and huge salaries meddling in the process from day one....

here's how you do it.

1. work out what you want. - This means I want an interceptor, multirole, aircraft carrier, nuclear powered shoe shiner etc
2. Tell the engineers and designers to leave a bit of space, capability etc for future upgrades and improvements
3. let the build it
4. give them money, take the keys and drive it away.

30% deposit.
20% on reciept
25% on commisioning
15% on final handover post snag fixes
10% at contracted point after all targets met

Then give a bonus if warranted - industry std

and to all those who say it cannot be done - balls. Just because "we have always done it this way" is your mantra doesn't mean it has to stay that way.

Also - stop making new technology backwards compatible - it is cheaper to upgrade the old to the new or start again than make 21st century widgits talk to stuff from the 50's

The piece in the Times is under Liam Fox's byline, so it will be an article submitted by his staff over his signature for publication.

That makes more sense. Using QE initially with the Harriers and then equipping the PoW with cat 'n' traps for the F-35C, after which QE could become an amphibious helicopter carrier (mothballed or also refitted with cat 'n' traps later during refit) and PoW the aircraft carrier. It wouldn't cost much more given that PoW is supposed to be cheaper to build than QE or be delayed as it is not even in construction yet. I think only some lead in items have been ordered to date. There might be wastage from not using QE properly, but I guess it will save money in the longer term.

There's no source of steam on board, it electric or nothing for catapults.

Dixie

bear in mind that the military actually wanted conventioanl take off & landing (with cats & traps) F35s right from the start. BAE & R-R threw their toys out of the pram & persuaded the Minister (Hoon) that British industry was best served with the STOVL version.

Sod the military requirement.

What Harriers?

"...Using QE initially with the Harriers and then equipping the PoW with cat 'n' traps for the F-35C..."

Sounds possible I guess, but depending on when a CATOBAR PoW with F35C would achieve initial operating capability, it would involve running Harrier on for an awfully long time. Is that plausible?

Also even if PoW is the cheaper ship, the currently quoted bill for the two will take account of that. Conversion to cat and trap would send the current figure northwards, and further delay would presumably add more still.

Given Fox's words I'm even more intrigued to see how this particular circle will be squared

The ones that will survive the SDSR cutbacks. Assuming that they do......

Frostchamber

Harrier has a theoretical OSD of 2018, which would make it feasible for HMS QE to serve her first commission (2015-18) in the STOVL role and then be converted to CATOBAR for a commission around 2020/21. (What sort of use HMS QE would be with a slack handful of GR9/GR9As on board is beyond me, especially if the LPJ heads back to the 'Stan to replace the GR4s if Tornado gets binned in toto next week... :ugh:)

Under this sort of "plan" (and Mr Boffin will shortly pop up to correct me, I hope) HMS PoW could then be complete in 2017/18 to replace it as CATOBAR, either with an early UK Dave-C airgroup, or, depending on what happens with Cameron - Sarkozy in a few weeks' time (see: Anglo-French defence co-operation: Entente or bust | The Economist), conceivably with an Aeronavale airwing, especially if CdG is under overhaul.

And at least Dave-C looks good on the ground and airborne - just looks better to me than Dave-A (and much much better than Dave-B to my eyes) http://www.jsf.mil/video/f35test/10-...ght_B-Roll.wmv .

Just my ill-informed 0.02...

S41

As I understand it both ships are being built with a clear well for the cat to sit in and I doubt they are assembling the flight deck yet so should be no problem for QE to have it fitted if is ordered now. you could at least lay the power in to the well.

Much too sensible. Past experience says they will go for the "British Gas" option - finish building the flight deck- and then dig it up!. :sad:

WillDAQ,

I don't think it would take much to put a steam boiler and reservoir on board.

Electric cat will require a huge amount of electricity if we are talking linear motors and all the lights will go dim when it's used.

You can store an awful lot of energy built up over time with high pressure steam.

Have the grown ups, figured out. How they will be able to train a fully worked up Flight Deck crew ??? like FDOs,Chockheads,Badgers etc. The knowledge required, is sadly no longer present in todays FAA. Maybe a trip over the pond is on the cards.;)

They could always learn the hard way. As they had to initially all those years ago. And in so doing, learn (the hard way) not to let your skills disappear.

"learn not to let your skills disappear"

Give us a break with this nonsense.

Why would we have wasted money for the last 30 years training flight deck crew in CATOBAR operations??

If we get CATOBAR-equipped carriers we are certainly not going to have a problem getting our colonial cousins (and perhaps the French) to get us back up to speed in plenty of time.

LEARN THE HARD WAY!!! I hope not, its a long way down from the flight deck, to the oggin, some 80ft. Hope they get caught up in the scramble nets, from the downdraught. As there is no SAR Planeguard aircrewman diver, to help out in todays FAA;)

I told you ,morons, 4 years ago,you will never get any aircraft carriers , neither any F-35

Your are clowns !:p

:D:D

Cheers Squirrel. It strikes me as a bit ambitious to imagine deploying an airgroup of F35C from PoW in 2018, but we shall see.

As to an Aeronavale airgroup instead - hmm - good to practice, potentially interesting if we needed to do something with them in anger?

As to Tornado geting binned in toto next week, the numbers just wouldn't stack up. I'd be less surprised by another cut in number of sqns and early retirement once all the Phoon sqns are in place (all 5 of them...)

Snr Rduarte - have a sniff of this pretty flower in my buttonhole.