People going sick.
 

In todays age of cost cutting, End to End, Lean and manpower losses, isnt it time the RAF, and the MOD introduced a set period of payed sick leave?

Obviously the people that are genuinely sick are looked after, but the pi55 takers are hit in the pocket.

Re: People going sick.
 

Wippy,

Just the other day I was listening to the Post Office problems - they have lots of 'sickness' and have resorted to running a rewards scheme for people who show up for work. Turn up for work consistently over a set period and you can win a car! Oh yeah, they also pay you too!

Fortunately we're not in that situation yet but the more w@nk ideas the bosses come up with - my forthcoming favourite is the annual shovel sand from one box to another test - the more likely it is to happen.

In your situation I would do two things: run your own rewards scheme when it comes to someone needed for a nice (and not) det, friday afternoon stand down etc. Also, make it quite clear to Bloggs that if he's seen anywhere other than his room and the mess at meal times he'll be charged. Reinforce this by telling him 'duty of care' means you'll have to send people to infrequently visit him to make sure he's ok. After 14 days in the block, work will be a dream come true!

Re: People going sick.
 

The trouble is we all tread a very thin line thats constantly getting thinner with regards to 'bullying or harrassment'.

I have had one of female JNCO's around to the SAC's room (she is a female), and the SAC came to me to ask why she wasn't trusted !!!!!!!!!!!

Gone are the days of 'you are fizzed, give me ur 1250 and get down the guard room'

In fact, its more hassle nowadys to charge someone. You now have to write 'witness statements' and the paperwork is such a bind.

What is the RAF coming to?

Re: People going sick.
 

Mr W
Firstly my commiserations.
What you need to do is write truthful apraisals, and every time this individual slips below the standards that the rest of his workmates set, inform him, in writing getting him to sign that he has been appraised of his shortcomings, keeping a signed copy on file and a copy for him.
I know it is extra pain for you but this is the only way you can a give him an overall 1 thus preventing an annual increment:E It also has the added bonus of compiling evidence for possible future admin action
One of two results should follow this course of action
either he bucks up or he's dimissed:)
You'd be doing everyone a favour:ok:
Good Luck
ps if you can catch him out of quarters whilst he's siq might help too:ok:

Re: People going sick.
 

Get the Doc on side. They don't like being messed around either but, like you, they need to play safe. Is it the same, or similar, problem? Get your line management at the same level to talk to the docs. Is it always the same doc or always different?

Speak to the Chief Clerk, WO, OC PSF etc. They will ensure the proper admin protocols are followed.

There may be a case for a psyciatric review and environmental posting. A formal warning may solve the problem too however it also means they cannot get posted.

We had a WRAF (as was) who came to us and we discovered that she had been refered to the shrinks. The doc also told us the gist of the shrinks report. It made the world of difference on how she was treated - I won't say more. She was ultimately given a formal warning whereupon she played the environmental card. This time we made sure her new WO was fully briefed.

She left the RAF 3 months after the posting. Oh and she had 4 A levels.

Re: People going sick.
 

Pontius,

Are you suggesting we need to keep a particular eye on junior ranks with qualifications? ;)

Re: People going sick.
 

FOMere,

Now you come to mention it, yes. In the first woman's case it probably meant she was bored rigid with the job and her coworkers.

I know two others. One was potentially suitable for a commission but she had a fixed view that first you needed to be commanded before you could command. Very socialist.

The other was not suitable for a commission but definitely NOT qualified for the job she had. The recruiters had grabbed her in but then risked boring her with the wrong job.

So yes, do watch the bright ones and make sure they are properly encouraged and mentored even if it might appear to lead to favouritism. There are only so many openings available to 'star' and it is up to you to make sure you use all the skills and attributes of your workers to the best of their ability.

Re: People going sick.
 

another problem with this is that the RAF use so many civilian doctors that 'seem' to be very easily convinced.

Re: People going sick.
 

Mr Whippy, that indeed may be a problem however they all went to the same medical school and soon get pissed off with lead swinging.

In the case I mentioned the doc was indeed service and I was astonished by the candour displayed. The airwoman must have pissed the doc off right royally.

Short answer, nothing ventured nothing lost. Get someone to talk to the doc.

Re: People going sick.
 

Mr Wippy,

A lot of civilian organisations are now adopting a far harder approach to casual sickness; it has been a bane to a lot of companies for a long time.

Both companies I have worked for recently have adopted formal procedures for dealing with repetitive / inappropriate amounts of sickness. After 3 instances of absence due sickness an individual is given a one-to-one interview with their line manager. After a further 3 instances of sickness a further interview is held, this time with line manager and also a representative from the HR department. The basis of the interviews is to adjudge whether the individuals work or workplace is contributing to (or to blame for) the sickness, and also to offer support and assistance in the return to work. Should the work prove to be unsuitable for the individual then alternative positions can be offered, or ultimately their contract is terminated!

Whilst dismissing employees for sickness is still fraught with pitfalls, employers are learning to 'work the system' to their advantage. As has been said before, get PSF involved. The last thing you want is a harrassment claim against you.

Re: People going sick.
 

Good god man....you say you are a SNCO....then bloomin act like one. Have you encouraged him to be part of the team...(Remember "The team works"). Have you interviewed him, made him feel part of the team ? Or...have you acted like a complete and utter weak kneeded SNCO and ostrasised him from your unit. Get a grip of your section and do what your paid to do - Lead your men.

Re: People going sick.
 

Big Tudor

Having just transferred to the civil service let me explain how it works and why there is so much 'sickness' there

I live about 20 miles from work, during the recent snows on the Friday I was at my desk, white stuff descends from the heavens -

Me - Boss, looking at the met it's going to get worse, is it OK if I get off?
Boss - er, well, I'm not sure, em, well, it might thaw, er no
Me- OK, if we do get snowed in will you authorise a hotel for tonight?
Boss - oh, er no, well, go if you think it would be best

Next week
Boss - are you going to take a half day's leave for last Friday?

Now someone pointed out that if I'd said I was sick I could have just gone, spineless line-manager wouldn't have had to make a decision

Last year, similar thing whilst serving out my time at a well-known station that's just about to have a closing-down sale

Boss - Maple, it's snowing like bu@@ery, you're not doing anything that's vital to the defence of the western world, sod off home

Me - are you sure?

Boss - are you still here?

Difference between a good boss and an @rse, also the different cultures - In my experience in the RAF you have to be dieing before being written off, in the 'real world' sickness covers a multitude of sins including incompetent man managers who’ve never heard of ‘duty of care’

Re: People going sick.
 

Exactly....please take note Mr Wippy....Difference between a good boss and an @rse....which one do you think your team think you are??????

Re: People going sick.
 

Southside

Well said and exactly what I was about to write. He calls himself a SNCO but has he counselled the guy, found out if there are any root causes to his problem? Probably not because it is so much easier to label some one with the "not a team player" or the old "Hasn't risen to the challenge" tags. If you get a sick chit signed off by an MO that's the end of the matter and putting the WO Medic on the spot is outrageous. Even in the RAF there is such a thing as Medical In Confidence!

Good grief Mr Whippy should be ashamed of himself, admitting defeat on a public forum. What kind of rubbish is the GST 2 factory turning out these days??

What trade are you in Mr Whippy?

:mad:

Re: People going sick.
 

Well someone must think he is up to the job because they have signed off the TATS to enable them to get their SACs...........

Re: People going sick.
 

SS & Gorilla.
I could understand it if MrW had said his entire section was swinging the lead but he clearly stated he has only 1 "case" You both clearly have no idea as to his current situation, I don't need to know his trade I know his situation, and just how hard it is to "council" someone who is quite simply not interested.
You cannot turn these people round with a damn good bit of councelling it is a long and frankly boring process......but if you never tell someone they're going wrong how will they ever know? hence my suggestion for a paperwork trail.

Re: People going sick.
 

thats a bit harsh considering that you know only what I have posted on here. Who the fcuk are you to condemn my managerial skills?

Re: People going sick.
 

New Year, same old Southside ! :mad:

Bloke comes on, with a reasonable request for some advice from the forum, unfortunately, you're online !

Still learning the ropes in the Air Cadets are you Southside ?

SH

Re: People going sick.
 

Insty

I agree with your paper trail idea and that should be natural to any SNCO wishing to protect his 6, however and I will apologise if proven wrong, Wippy seems to be washing his hands of this lad. Statements like "Now, I know the individual is taking the ****." give me the impression that he has absolutely NO idea what might be going on in his life! Med Centres, despite civilianisation are not stupid, they keep records etc and I know from my own experience that they will lie to protect a patients confidentiality. And of course Wippy may only have 1 subordinate to deal with!!

:)

Re: People going sick.
 

southside & The Gorilla

The search facility is down, so I can't investigate why you have made such stupid comments. My insults will have to wait.

You are clueless.

Re: People going sick.
 

Sir Peter

Me? I just love agreeing with Southside!!

:O

Re: People going sick.
 

Well, I think you owe Mr Wippy an apology.

Re: People going sick.
 

There is the likelihood that military personnel DO get sick, it IS confidential, and the Supervisors wouldn't actually understand the possible complex problem even if they had it explained to them. There must be a better way than simply assuming the guy/girl is taking the p*** out of the system.

Unless the Boss is medically trained, has access to the files, and has medically examined and questioned the patient, I am of the opinion that the Boss has no right to speculate or gossip the case.

Would aircrew accept PSF staff questioning their decision to divert? I think not.. :hmm:

Re: People going sick.
 

The whole point of this thread was not to slate my SNCO ability, but was purely to get people opinions of the current sick leave entitlement.

I think that where people are PROVEN to be extracting the urine, then the medical centre should not fall for it every time.

Re: People going sick.
 

You searched for all stupid posts by southside? No wonder the facility's gone down, man! When it comes back up, save yourself some time by displaying all posts by user :E

Re: People going sick.
 

Go for it Sir Peter;:ok:

Southside is/was/always will be a little outspoken, as those that generally talk sh1*e are generally the noisiest.

Could do with a bit of banter...there doesn't seem to be any Movers around.

Mr Wippy...Good luck with your bod. Brick walls are always nearby to bounce your head off.....

Regards to Most...SFS:cool:

Re: People going sick.
 

And before Southside chirps up, NO im not a mover:)

Re: People going sick.
 

Quite right. Ops, Gp and STANEVAL are more than enough for that task already.

As for an ongoing med problem that stops someone pulling their weight - every time I've come across that on the aircrew side the person has TALKED to their mates, that's what being part of a team means. Malingerers do more damage than just not turning up, they kill team spirit in the whole section - do the paperwork and get rid. If there is a genuine med problem then that'll come out in the wash and you'll STILL get rid and get a proper worker in instead.

Re: People going sick.
 

Wippy

Glad to hear you are not a mover! Sorry if I have rattled your cage and I apologise, no I didn't read that bit about you managing 20 because I didn't have my glasses on!!

Back to your problem then, you aren't going to get rid of him in the short to medium term are you? It's almost impossible to get shot of such a problem and getting him posted just makes it some one else’s yes?

What does your upper chain think? Do you have the support of those two or three commissioned ranks above you? If not it's cricket bat time for you. I had a similar problem in an R12 in the late 80's. My lot said he's on your watch you sort him Sarge. Our only solution back then was to bend over backwards to make the **** a team member. That meant briefing every other team member to make allowances for the weakest link. He needed close supervision at all times. To cut a long story short my guy had serious personal and medical problems, which in the end required an admin discharge.

What I can tell you about the industry I am in now is that we have a three strikes and you are on a discipline rule. It works like this, in any rolling 12-month period you are allowed two sickness absences. After the third you are dragged straight in to a formal hearing with a Manager and a Human Resources guy, Union reps usually attend. Even so it has proved almost impossible to stamp out the culture whereby certain guys seem to think they are entitled to at least 3 weeks off a year for sickly purposes. After six months we go from full pay to half pay and after another six months we go onto SSP. I have found that this makes no difference to the professional sickies as they usually only have 2 to 4 weeks off at a time.

As for the current RAF sick leave entitlement,that's a hard one. Problems like yours are few and far between. It really is up to the Medics to sort him out and if he really does have serious medical problems they are obliged not to tell you. In certain cases they will lie on the Fmed form that comes to you. But they will know if he is just a malingerer!... and sort him out eventually.

:)

Re: People going sick.
 

thats better!:ok:

cheers for the advice

Re: People going sick.
 

Now a J bloke

Trust me, were still around, just watching and waiting our time ha ha ha...

MM

Re: People going sick.
 

[QUOTE][/Malingerers do more damage than just not turning up, they kill team spirit in the whole section QUOTE]

A hearty Amen to that! Once worked with a constant whinger, when he left we had a party, he was not asked to attend.

Re: People going sick.
 

J Bloke

" Could do with a bit of banter..there doesn't seem to be any Movers around."

Here we go then:

Mr Wippy,

Perhaps if you suggested to the rest of your team that they were having to pick up the slack left by this malingerer ( if that is what he/she is ) then said malingerer may be offered some " Peer Counselling ". It sometimes solves the problem. :)

Re: People going sick.
 

If this person is really "swinging the lead" then there are regulations and ways of getting rid of them. (permanently medically downgraded = discharge if you do your homework) All it takes is for you do some homework in the APs/QRs, get the support of your superiors, write them up accordingly and within a year they can be gone.

It is worth emphasising that it is YOUR problem and YOU have to deal with it. Don't pass the buck to someone else. I am sure that you CO has a right to talk to the MOs about the fitness of his/her men/women.

Good luck

Re: People going sick.
 

Maple 01 had a Boss who said... following a stand-down due to bad weather, who has obviously not read his MoD PIs which clearly state that Line Manager's can and should authorise time off in the event of inclement weather, without penalty... same with travel to work in similar conditions. Much more formal than, perhaps, the service way of doing it (i.e. it needs to be laid out in black & white)... same result!!!

Re: People going sick.
 

Im back and about to rant about Mr Wippy's mamby pampy still of leadership. You don't get paid to come on here and mank about your team not following you. You get paid to lead them, guide them, draw the best out of them in order to get the job done. Thats what leadership is all about. Team/Task/Individual - without those bobbies you cannot be a sucessful leader.
So, go and find your lady and try to discover what her problem is. Why doesn't she want to work for you? Are you a tyrant or just a weak kneed ineffective chap who couldn't lead his team out of a paper bag. Has she got other problems you dont know about?

You need to stop bealting on here and go and talk to your team more.

Re: People going sick.
 

Southside - post #3. The 'he' is a 'she', and you're a c0ck.

Re: People going sick.
 

Brilliant. I don't like your argument because its far too clever for me and it seems to be talking a lot of sense and so rather than form a coherant counter-argument Im going to verbally abuse you. Tee Hee! With a post like that you should join the RAF.

Re: People going sick.
 

If only it were that simple.....I have finally been discharged after being med downgraded (through no fault of mine) for the last 7 years. That was after having 3 medical boards where each time they decided that I was fit enough to stay in the RAF (UK service only and with a shed full of restrictions).

Why have I been discharged now......my 22 years were up!

The implications of a med discharge are that it will cost the services too much in medical pension so that is an absolute last resort.

Re: People going sick.
 

southside one indication of a good leader is someone who seeks advice when they are not sure, or perhaps you are just so perfect there is nothing new for you to learn! :hmm:

Widger Whilst I agree that it is Mr Wippys problem to sort out, you can bet your bottom dollar that if he doesn't sort it out according to a string of fluffy wuffy bunny rules then it will also be his proverbial @rse on the line when sicknote claims unfair dismissal / sexual discrimination. It's amazing how the high and mighty develop a sudden desire to wash their hands when the sh1t hits the fan! :*