.......Lead Service/Country?
 

New WO1,

Lots has been written here about equivalencies etc, but the real point was raised by SASless' link; the American system was established from the long-held British Model. Therefore, it's not a case of us (Brits) agreeing to salute you (USA) but maybe a case of you guys swallowing humble pie and realising that we have been running a military structure longer than you. In fact, the majority of countries around the World has adopted the Brit Model in one modified form or another. Who, therefore, do you think might have precedence over such an arguement. Besides, if NATO think you are between an officer and an enlisted man, who are we to argue.

As a commissioned officer, I hold a commission from the Queen; WOs hold a warrant issued by the Sec State for Def. WOs are skilled, knowledgable and well respected people in the British Military but have no desire for Officer status (save a few applying for a commission). The point is that you hold one or the other but not both; you cannot have your cake and eat it! Look forward to receiving a salute from you; let me know where you are and I'll be glad to drop by (it's the only time I will go out of my way for one instead of trying to avoid them!). Hope you are now suitably back in your box.

Incoming........................

Does one become a Warrant Officer in US Forces once one has completed basic training and gotten career medals for various courses, flying over over war zones (N Ireland for example!);)

Get over it you are not a Commisioned Officer, you are a Warrant Officer. WO1, bottom of the 5 stage WO system you have US of A:mad:

Hoist to crew winching over and OUT

TwoDeadDogs,

That story is simply not true. I'm sure the Australian SO you refer to was British.

Special Forces, if memory serves me well. Some people manage to get their priorities right.

Farmer.

Newbie,

Would you be satisfied that (at least in the RAF) WO's are afforded the respect the deserve by other non-commissioned personnel calling the 'Sir' and by officers calling them 'Mr'?

sw

New WO 1

After a bit of home support?

http://forums.military.com/groupee/f.../3920040020001

Now try going here too.


http://www.zenhex.com/quiz.php?id=14947

US UK

CW1 WO1 - 2/LT
CW2 Lt
CW3 Capt
CW4 Major

All CW ranks are effectively commisioned. Do not fool around with a CW4....He knows what he is talking about!

The AAC should have adopted this system years ago along with all the other highly specialised (paid) arms.

There is nothing I enjoy more than a good bit of pedantry, for our American cousins that means being picky.
In Britain the RN and the other two services have physical differences in the way they salute, this does not mean that when I am on a ship I adopt the Naval style of saluting.
In the British forces the commission is saluted, not the person. Thus, and I hope you can see where I am going, in view of the facts presented above you can't expect any British NCO or airmen to salute a new WO1 as they aren't commissioned and therefore would not be saluted if they were British. However, on gaining a commission as CW2 I can see that there is some justification for expecting a salute from British enlisted men.
To be honest with you though, your whole b****y rank structure is so complicated you can hardly expect those not daily immersed in it to fully comprehend it.
In short Newbie, back in your box for at least a year!

Michael...

Care to explain the rank system of the RAF to me? I saw every combination of colours and striping to beat the band....even saw solid white rank stripes....?

Simple,
We have airmen, NCOs, Warrant officers, who cunningly hold a warrant and don't get saluted, and commissioned officers who equally cunningly hold a commission and do get saluted.
I think you are having problems with the rank insignia of the RAF rather than than the structure. The explanation is a little trickier, however I will attempt to explain.
Airmen's rank insignia consist of nothing, or propellors with 2 or 3 blades on, I shall allow you to guess which is more senior. A four bladed propellor indicated a Junior Techician, senior to a two or three bladed propellor but junior to a corporal, although this rank is being phased out.
NCOs have 2 or 3 chevrons. Three chevrons with the aforementioned four bladed propellor (only for technical ranks) and the three chevrons with a crown fro a Flight sergeant.
Warrant officers have the royal cipher.
Commissioned officers have a system of thin medium and thick stripes much like our Naval bretheren only admittedly more difficult to decipher form a distance. The more stripes and the thicker they are the more senior.
White band is a training rank.
As I alluded to at the beginning of this post the rank structure is rather simple although I will willingly admit that officers rank insignia may be hard to spot at a distance. Wasn't me that whinged about not being saluted though!

Michael....

Thanks for the help...but I am still a mite confused....I looked at a graphic of the rank insignia for both officers and other ranks...and saw insignia for Technicians...NCO's both junior and senior...and then also Other Ranks, Aircrew that had yet more symbols on the rank insignia. Does that mean that Aircrew are a different rank and thus more senior than equal ranking NCO's? Do Technicians hold rank as do NCO's?

Now the Officer things when seen on a poster are quite simple....and seem to be a knockoff of the the Navy rank insignia concept. But...I get puzzled when I see Group Captains, Squadron Commanders, and Commode Doors.....are there fleets in the RAF?

Can a Squadron Leader be given command of a Wing if he is exceptional without being promoted to Wing Commander? How many Group Captains can you have when there are just a few Groups in existence? Can a Group Commander command a Wing...or Wing Commander command a Squadron?

This is all very confusing to me!

SASless, these may help:

RAF ranks:
Non Commisioned
Commissioned
Someone else can explain why Squadron Leaders command flights, and Wing Commanders command squadrons etc

British Army ranks.

Royal Navy ranks.

Had this experience in Oz 2 years ago. Went on a course with a CW4 helo pilot. No one knew what to call him or exactly what CW4 meant. So we asked. He was happy to go by first name basis with officers (no junior ranks on course). Out on the base no one saluted him, and h didn't get antsy. So New_WO1, i don't think you have a leg to stand on. Expecting a salute is like trying to get blood out of a rock. Do you feel better at night for being saluted? (i bet you do!!)

Just adding to what Mighty Gem already posted. This has NATO grades too so should be easier to compare...

RAF Ranks...

"As a commissioned officer, I hold a commission from the Queen"

A commission from a titular head of state? A mere figurehead good for little other than wasting state money on castles, scandals and an occasional ribbon cutting ceremony at the new library.

Do you think the PM could sign off instead? At least you get some work out of him.

I do believe someone said duck...

SASless,

The fancy stuff on the ranks for aircrew are just added stuff beyond the aircrew's brevet. Must maintain the Aircrew uber alles after all.

Basically they're just the same as blunties but with flying pay.

Not really. Just a large RN influence. IIRC the US Air Force grew predominantly out of its army. Here, the union of the RNAS and the RFC meant a greater mixing of the two's traditions and their paraphanalia.

It's not in the realms of imposibility but an exceptional Sqn Ldr would more likely make Wing Co. before a command post opened up on a Sqn. Though the two often go hand in hand.

Staff Posts. AVM promos too.

Umm, that's usually the way it is these days.

Westcoast wrote:

""As a commissioned officer, I hold a commission from the Queen"

A commission from a titular head of state? A mere figurehead good for little other than wasting state money on castles, scandals and an occasional ribbon cutting ceremony at the new library.

Do you think the PM could sign off instead? At least you get some work out of him.

I do believe someone said duck..."

As opposed to that shaved chimp in Washington? I doubt TCB will be working as hard when he's pushing 80!

You can give HM a slagging when you get the first clue regarding the British Constitution and the role of the Sovereign. And yes, this is a bite...

Oh, haven't there been some cases where Sqn commanders have been Gp Capts? Why the excess number of Groupies can't be sent to the glue factory instead of wasting rations at the sqn level, I don't know.

Looks like someone has their skivvies in a bunch.

"You can give HM a slagging when you get the first clue regarding the British Constitution"

No, actually I don't have to wait. Yeah, I dig that whole advice and consent thing. It would be the end of the royal family if he or she king or queen tried to use powers given.

Yeah, but you all wish you had one, and a Castle or two...:ok: :ok:


Shaun

Nah, we have the Kennedy's instead. Got a spare castle you can put them up in? Gonna need the extra big one for teddy, and DON'T get in a car with him.

You have my sympathies.........

Hey Westie....

At least one only hears from the Queen on ceremonial occasions....ah....maybe we can convince King Ted to do the same....in private he probably carries a purse too.

Hmm who you rather sign your commisssion HM The Queen or this.....

http://mitya.pp.ru/anato/bush_chimp.jpg

Taking cover!

AD ;)

Ok you got me..........which one's the chimp:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

If the queen is out that day doing whatever it is that a queen does, can Charles, or even the butler sign off on the commission?
Better yet, perhaps Willy could while wearing an armband.
I can hear him now

"Aah crap grandma, I had plans for today, I don't want to sit around the castle today signing paperwork"

Isnt Harry Joining the Army? Wouldn't that make his commission a note from his Gran? :E

Interesting that New_WO1 has buggered off... Perhaps he didn't get the reply he wanted?

I don't know anything about him but he is clearly fascinated with 'Respect'. Wrong side of the tracks I suspect....

Have you considered earning it Old Chap?

:rolleyes:

Perhaps as a new WO he is in need of information as it applies to interaction with an ally and not a bunch of tossers who pile on.

Meeeow! I think the 'Bull in a china shop' approach didn't help his cause.

For gawd's sake, WC, the boys have given all the info in the world. Not only here, but on ARRSE and military.com. He just didn't like the answers.
That's just the cherry on top.:E Young fellow clearly has a chip on both of his shoulders. If he can't take the pish here, he'll have real fun in the real world, now won't he?

West Coast

I think the guy has had quite a comprehensive answer on 3 different forums. After that it becomes banter, I'd really like to hear what your WO's think of him and his attitude.

Anyway time for a beer:ok: :ok:

The problem for Westy and his cousins is that if they cannot comprehend the likes of Fawlty Towers and Benny Hill what chance have they got with good old British Military humour:rolleyes:

And if they can't understand British humour then they have absolutely no chance with the bleedin obvious:p

It's all there in small and large font Westy and as plain as the nose on your face so do try and deal with it old chap:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

No, I recognize Brit humour. Problem is I don't find it very funny.

I never saw humour as being an asshole to someone, but that's your sense of what's funny not mine.

I was raised watching Benny Hill, see no parallels between his slapstick routines and what you put forth as humour here.

Thank God the real world is not full of cynical, sarcastic, pish taking bar-stewards, especially those sensitive military types who are always able to get in touch with their feminine intuition and help a colleague such as WO1 with his life challenges. ...otherwise he might be in for a tough old career path if he can't take the knocks at his first rank.

Maybe he should have bought two packets of cornflakes, he could have got his CW2 badge for two tokens and $1.50.

"Maybe he should have bought two packets of cornflakes, he could have got his CW2 badge for two tokens and $1.50."

Brit humour Westy, not "being an asshole to someone" do try to keep up old chap:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

OK, so we have ruled out humour as your reason for posting WC (appropriate initials) - care to enlighten us further?

Benny Hill? WC, if you think that's funny then maybe I see the problem here. I bet you liked Happy Days as well.

Westie....relax....salute the Empty Bag concept....even when it is a Windbag....father knows best and all that. Ever notice the sharpish replys one gets when it is the "Home" team that is the object of the banter? Our retort afterwards arrives at ...."OOOOOOH! ATTITUDE!" as they get all grouchy and hurt sounding.

So...go with the flow...Westie....slide that long slender blade between the ribs....they love it actually.

I did the "Army Officer" going to an RAF Officers Mess thread at Arrse....got some very proper, polite, helpful replies....with some very light banner....then admitted the truth...."American Army Warrant Officer" going to an RAF Officers Mess, thanking all for their guidance.... and instantly....all bile and bitter....funny what might have changed between posts.

Any idea what that might have been Chaps?

....and by the same token, we never see it as the backbone to military operations. :E

"Any idea what that might have been Chaps?"

You admitted being a "Diet Officer"? :p