Reds - Fuel wasters
 

The Reds flew over the village pub last night at 2000 approx in two groups, one of five and one of four. Obviously returning home.
Very nice boys and thank you for remembering it was my birthday.

Please tell me, why do you have to fly so low??
A - It's bloody dangerous, all those C150's etc etc in class G that don't read your notams.
B - It's a waste of fuel.

FEBA
 

You kind of answered your own question there.
"Very nice boys, and thanks for remembering it was my birthday."
If they'd been saving fuel at Flight Level blah you wouldn't have even noticed them would you!
Low level is where fast jets belong. It's much more fun.
BV

Thanks Bob,
It was meant to be a tongue in cheek remark. I did'nt actually ask them to fly over the pub. I have a lot of FJ traffic over my gaffe and they are all at high level, presumably until the LL entry point. Why do they Reds have to do the entire sortie at low level?
It's dangerous to both them and other traffic
and
It's a waste of fuel!
:cool:

Personally, I think they are scared of heights !! :}

Well everyone knows the further you fall the more it hurts!

Well. it was decided a long time ago to call them the Red Arrows and that was ok when we were flying biplanes, but as every aeronautical engineer knows, red paint just doesn't hold up in the high speed environment. Think about it, do you ever see any other fast jets painted red?

So they had a problem that they could solve one of two ways, they could rebrand themselves as the Blue Arrows, but it hardly has the same panache does it? Anyway back in the sixties one of our back room boys was playing around with his equipment and he realised that if he could invent an apparatus that could project the image of the jet travelling towards the viewer at extreme speed, the aircraft would appear to be red due to the doppler shift.

So, not many people know this, but the Arrows actually perform their display above 20,000 ft where they use the Coltingham Projector to beam an image down to the local village fete. Everyone's happy, the bug smashers are safe, the fuel bill is small enough for a round of G&Ts for the entire squadron after the show and the NIMBYs are happy because the display is almost silent.

Now I know you're going to scoff at this, but go to their website and pull up their schedule. Did you notice how during the summer they actually appear at several villege fetes at the same time? That's because they now include a Nimrod on the team to receive and rebroadcast the Coltingham Projection. Very clever indeed. In fact if fuel bills go much higher, you might see the entire team consisting solely of the Nimrod and the mess VCR. I hope they remember to change the tape first though.

:8

MJ has given you one very good reason, and having 'been there and done that' I can assure you that taking 10 aircraft across the busy UK airspace at high level can result in significant extra miles flown and a lot of work for a busy ATC system to get 2 separate formations around, and if there is any weather about, getting 10 down (no, not a crossword:D ) can be a bit of a challenge. Straight lines can be drawn without worrying about airways, and only minor deviations are required to avoid CTAs and the like. Throw in to that that if the team regularly 'arrived' at their display site in groups of 3, 5 minutes apart off an ILS, what would the audience think of it so far................:D

If the distances are significant, it is done at high level with the associated penalties.

Edited for Onan: I think, with the new Bush/Blair accord, it is done with AWACS? Of course, you show your age talking about a 'VCR'

British technology don't you know. None of this damned digital nonsense. I always say if it was good enough to stop Hitler etc etc.

Onan
It is possible that you may have let the cat out of the bag. Expect a visit late at night

What's the next villege Onan :E

Sorry, Onan - you have gone that step too far. The Nimrod participation is highly classified, and the Coltingham Projector is on the codeword list.

I have had no option but to report you to the appropriate authorities, who are now investigating.

Expect a visit from men in black in the infamous black Omega...

Well now if they fly close formation....why not just follow the Nimrod down the ILS....and ziggy over to the fete en mass? Somehow the thought of following a Nimrod could be said of most military formations....aerial or on foot.

Reds as fuel wasters...yep..makes sense. Disband them and save the public the agony of 28 formation changes in 30 odd minutes. Still thats time for a leg over in the motor, tom tit, latte grande and still make it back to crowd centre for a much more punchy Frecce Tri Co display :}

Don't disband the Reds, how on earth would I get out of airshows first except when the utterly dull as well as waste of fuel are doing their thing at the end and the great unwashed anorak wearing sunburned proles are looking up saying ' ooooh aren't they great mavis'

The only ones worse are that Spanish bunch of set piece merchants, give me some Blue Angels or the like anytime.

It is quite possible that the mighty 'rod would use more fuel per hour than the Reds! Add on the cost of pies, curry etc and the Reds start to look like value for money!

So, lets get this right, the Reds are at fault for not making the C150 pilots read notams then?

Oh yeah, i Get it....


:mad: :mad: :mad:

Or how about you should be glad to hear the sound of freedom in your local?

Whilst many in the mob gently take the pi$$ out of the 'Team', the Arrows are consummate professionals who have managed to fight off all the attempts of avaricious beancounters intent on clipping their wings...

Good luck, Reds, long may you prosper!

:ok:

Beags, mind you they pissed us off right Royally at Akrotirii.

Not really their fault but the Staish. Mess rules were very tight, no flying suits, no flip flops etc etc. And there were the Reds in flying suits and flip flops and the Staish fawning all over them.

Ok Ok, bit like the VC10s. They didn't want it but WTH they had to do it so often why not be comfortable with it.

On the question of are they worth it? Saw a pair of Mirage Vs at Waddo, looked like they were tied together. Now watching heavy metal doing the routine is something else again.

I seem to remember a French Fighter School that when teaching Formation actually tied the aircraft together.....Four aircraft all tied together with a bit of rope. ....very impressive

Yes, with the pilots mange-ing some Camembert and sharing a dog-eared Galouise Blue...

CharlieGolf - Everyone knows its not the fall that hurts you.

mbga9pgf - I, like many, don't have any real hard feelings about The Reds one way or the other. Lots of people get huge amounts of enjoyment out of watching them and that's good enough for me. However, I'm of the mind that its the ABSENCE of the noise of military grade jet engines that's the sound of freedom.

Then again, its really down to how you define freedom now isn't it.:hmm:

This might sound a bit sycophantic, but I think the Reds are tops. They may have been a bit full of themselves in the past (I remember one introducing himself as Red 4, in the Mess!), but I think that those days have gone and there are some good guys in the team.

Keep it up!

:ok:

kipper

Well I never MB9G or whatever your name is:
The true sound of freedom is
"Why don't you go down to the pub tonight with your mates"
ended with
"I hear the Reds will be flying over the Lord Brabazon at ANO minimum tonight"

Now that is the true sound of freedom. As for all this; "it's safer at low level than it is in class A at FL280" what a load of cod's.

I'm going to complain to president Blair about the money that these blokes in red boiler suits waste. Red is a non PC colour anyway, that unduly upsets Bulls when flying at low level. So fly high save fuel and think of the bulls.
Thank you

Maybe they fly at low level so that people can see them. Otherwise, what would be the point in having your Number 1 PR machine flying at FL nosebleed.

Nope, keep them low level and then people can see them as they fly around the country.

"project the image of the jet travelling towards the viewer at extreme speed, the aircraft would appear to be red due to the doppler shift."

I'm sorry to say that this would again make the the 'Blue Arrows' as the doppler shift would be to the blue end of the spectrum as the wavelength of the light is shortened with the relatavistic closing velocity of the objects.

Having said all that, it is a brilliant explanation to why the Rads seem to be at almost every air event at the same time.

FEBA, spoken like a true Blue Tory from Oxbridge :O

You imagine that Labour would back a different colour for the Reds. :=





I am joking if course

Surely if they flew higher, more people would see them? :rolleyes:

The Reds do provide entertainment and more importantly, inspiration to those who have dreams of becoming well trained aviators in the military. Many of todays best RAF personnel (not just pilots) first became interested in such a career after witnessing the RAFAT do their thing with such expertise.

Also, remember that these guys have buckets of experience in other forms of flying, much of it operational FJ, and have proven themselves in the past. Simply put - they are very good at what they do. If the guys get pride out of their new job - then good on them, I think they deserve it. They work many more weekends than a majority of other RAF employees. I simply find it wierd that they get such a bad rap from others in the military.

Why complain about them flying at low level whilst en-route to another display? It's all about exposure, and bang-for-the-buck. They're just making the most of their assets.

Agreed, in the air they are a fine and inspirational example to all. Its just such a pity that they are such t@ssers in the bar/ at the airshow:E

for ten million a year....

Finally get that Vulcan airborne. A more impressive sight at an airshow you will not see.

A hawk solo, or even 2 ship display at EVERY two-bit airshow.

rebuild a mossie and put it on the BBMF

return a Javelin to flying condition

return a Phantom toflying condition

return a UK lightning to flying condition

have a 2 ship typhoon display team.

........any more takers?

Totally agree STANDTO. The funds used to finance the team could be put to better use. There will always be those that say that the Arrows are British ambassadors, good advertising for recruitment etc etc.............but the display and the aircraft are really outdated. Now a display team of Spitfires........oh yeah!!!

I love the Reds but for ten million a year....

What about refurbish every piece of singly/married peeps accomodation:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

for ten million a year....

Well I suppose you could run the team for 20,000 years for the price of GWII, though in fairness you'd have to do a currency conversion.

They are a total waste of time space and oxygen as far as I am concerned ..

I was posted to CFS Flight Planning at Scampton in 92/93 and had to go in on a Sunday around 2.30 to check our Notam board for hazards if the reds were transitting back from a display .. I would have to check the return route and note any hazards around their track .. one of the pilots would then phone me and I would give him the gen .. half the time they wouldnt phone.

And I just loved it when I used to get home to find they had used the smoke in one of their slots and the wifes washing stunk of diesel !! .. made my life so much fun !!

Standing joke at Scampton at the time :

"Whats the difference between a Reds Hawk and a pair of boxers ??" .. you can only get one d**k in a pair of boxers !!

.. Not meant as a slur against the guys who fly the green and grey buisness end of the Air Force ..

Nothing against the men in red quickfit fitter suits doing the stuff infront of an audience, but,

1) It's not an efficient way of transiting from base to the display at LL
2) It's more dangerous at LL than in controlled airspace (by the way when they transit to N America do they do it at LL, NO)
3) It annoys some and therefor produces the complete opposite of the desired effect.

So; red men, remember you don't own the skies, you share it with the rest of us. Quit b%ggering around/ showing off at low level, be safe, save gas, fly high.
Thank you

Support your local Red Arrow.
 

I'm a bit dissapointed that there aren't more people on this forum prepared to defend the boys in red. I for one think they do an excellent job. Having met the team a few times and knowing guys who are about to join I can assure you they are a decent bunch.
Leads me to wonder if Tourist has ever actually met and talked to them or if he is just jumping on someone elses bandwagon.
Lastly, I can't believe I'm about to do this but I must agree with vecvec that the simple reason they are at low level is for exposure. If they were up higher they would probably not get noticed as much and wouldn't seem quite so spectacular.
Yes it may be safer up high but then only those people paying for an airshow would get to see them. I think they are probably responsible for an awful lot of RAF applications over the years so lets stop bitching shall we.
BV

Damn right Bob. All these clowns who slag off the Reds because it's "cool" should listen to themselves sometimes.
FEBA. Obviously they don't transit to the States at LL, I think they might run into a bit of a fuel snag after about an hour.
:E
Another reason they fly at LL when transiting is to "drop in" on peoples weddings etc. when they can. You can phone up and request flybys from them, people do it every day, and if they can make it, they will. What better PR do we get in the RAF these days? Those crappy adverts on TV? Mmmmm, they sure would encourage me to sign up:yuk:
To suggest they are (as you so eloquently put it) "b%ggering around/ showing off at low level" is an insult to the dedication and professionalism of the team.

Why is it always the wannabes/can't do's that moan and slag off those that have success?

They are suposed to be showing off. That's what they're for.

Mike W

Never before has there been such a strong smell of sour grapes! :rolleyes:

casper
To suggest that the RED Arrows transiting policy be reviewed is not an insult to their professionalism. It is, however, an over reaction from yourself.
On this occaision, last Sunday, they were high speed transits in two formations through LFA6. They were heading along a ridge (usually used by Tucanos LL nav route) heading roughly east. During the weekend this area is densly crowded with gliders, light piston aircraft not to mention a parachute airfield very close by. They could have easily collided with a light piston flying into sun and the wreckage would have fallen onto a village below. Whereas, had they been flying at less densly populated altitudes the risk of collision is greatly diminished.
I have no brief regarding their flying or formation skills. They are, I believe, a good advert for the RAF, but they run the risk of acheiving precisely the opposite if they are invloved in a collision with light civvy traffic during the weekend by sticking to what I believe to be an unsafe transiting policy.
What's their number for booking a flypast next week??? Only joking :E

Don't be such an utter ar$e! It is far, far safer for the Reds to transit at a level not normally used by GA than up in 'Indian Territory' with all the Cherokees, Warriors, Tomahawks etc...

Jealous, moaning civvies who would doubtless give their eye teeth to sit in a Hawk, let alone fly in one should rest assured that the RAFAT has been flying quite safely around the UK for decades - so don't look for problems where non exist!