22 Crews, 2 Sqns At Kinloss!!!!
 

Just heard the latest that by 1st April 05 there will only be 22 crews and 2 operational squadrons left at ISK ( not including 42R ). I wonder which sqn will cease to be, 120, 206 or 201?????????????:{ :{ :{

NC - if precedent is followed, it will be the junior out of 201 and 206.

120 is protected (under the precedent) since it was awarded its standard early (for its work in the Battle of the Atlantic). Previously, this honour has ensured that it doesn't go in cuts. IIRC, there is evidence in the PRO that 120 wasn't due to receive Nimrod MR 1, but this was overturned when someone pointed out the matter of the standard.

By the by, this is why 617 is still with us - early award of standard, and despite being junior to a number of other numberplates, this has led to other units getting the chop.

When the RAF is cut back to 3 squadrons, they'll be II(AC), 120 and 617...

Now, where did I put my anorak?:8

Deliverance,

Bear with me - will answer later from home.

So, does that mean 206 goes?

If so, when's the pi$$ up?

Didn't think it would be this much later...

Anyway, it runs something like this.

RAF sqns can be awarded their standard after completing 25 years of service (obviously, the unit must be extant and periods of disbandment are not included in the tally) or by 'earning the sovereign's appreciation following specially outstanding operations'.

120 and 617 are the only two sqns to fall into the latter category, which is why they have (or seem to) 'special' status when considering seniority, etc for disbandment/re-equipment.

All the other sqn numberplates are allocated/avoid disbandment on the basis of seniority. The Air Ministry and then MoD have drawn up lists of which units are the most senior in the air force, and these can be found in the PRO.

Obviously, the 30 year rule applies to these documents, but the order in 1973 was:

II(AC)
1
6
4
14
24
8
60
5
12
70
3
25 etc (there are 171 listed in total, so I'll stop there)

The order for the Nimrod sqns in that list is:

201 (43rd in seniority)
42 (77th)
206 (91st)
120 (98th)

All of them will have advanced since then, since some units ahead of them in 1968 are long gone, and will have slipped down the list.

If the precedent pertaining to standards is followed, then as J.A.F.O says, 206 will be the unlucky numberplate.

NB, though, that the rule does not always apply: when the F-4J entered RAF service, the number plate should have been 39 rather than 74, as the 39 plate was free (39 having disbanded and become 1 PRU in 1982 before the PRU was rebranded as 39 (1PRU) later on).

<removes anorak>

I wonder how unusual it is, in more recent times, for an RAF squadron to get less than 6 months notice of disbandment. That is when they finally get around to announcing which one is to go (I presume that this hasn't happened yet or it would already be on this thread!).

Blow the Sqn fund on a big party guys!!



P.S I thought when you got down to 2 Sqns then a full blown OCU couldn't be justified on cost grounds, e.g current situation with VC-10s, E-3D, etc. (Not quite sure what the score is on C-130 fleet now there are 2 Sqns K and 2 Sqns J). I thought we ended up with Training Flights or embedded teaching cells within an Operational Sqn (I am old enough to remember the LTF at Binbrook!!).

Conversion on the C130 is now done by Flights within Sqns: Ks on 70 and Js on 24.

Same on SH - and I expect SAR ere long....

So can we anticipate closure of the Nimrod OCU as well, being replaced by a flight within one of the two remaining Sqns, to bring the Nimrod fleet into line with current RAF widespread practice?

Yes Biggus!

We went through lots of evolution in the 80-90''s
One brilliant idea at a Stn tactics board meeting, put forward by a Wg Cdr, was to create a local checking unit called the -"Training Wing Assement Team (****), which ,for some reason, didn't come to fruition - can't understand why?

Love Many, Trust a few, Always padle your own canoe!

Biggus old chap!

Youv\'e either been out of the system a long time, lost touch, or got some sort of aircraft type dementia.

The Nimrod OCU has long been recocognised as the most demanding OCU.

Everybody, but Navs, in particular, work very hard to achieve the objectives of every exercise, whch, as the course progresses, becomes more complicated and demanding, both in the Sim and in the Air.
At the same time, they are expected to develop "tactical awarness" to improve their potential for graduation

It is often suggested that the most distinguished of the ISK squadrons is No.120, thanks to its early experience with VLR Liberators, though its late war service was 'easier', and No.206 had a more distinguished history generally, in both Wars, while 201 was sidelined, to an extent, by being a Sunderland unit.

My opinion on this is, of course, in no way conditioned by my Dad's Wartime service on Lib VIs and VIIIs with 206........

If there are to be 22 crews, why not four or even five numberplates covering what would otherwise be 'A Flight' and help rescue some worthy maritime units from oblivion. The Wing Commander CO posts could be named as (say) No.18 'Biscay' Wing and No.19 'Battle of the Atlantic' Wing, taking on the badges and traditions of 18 and 19 Groups, thereby commemorating Coastal Command's great wartime Groups and its greatest achievements.

Jackonicko

You seem to be labouring (no pun intended) under the misapprehension that history began before 2 May 1997.

As far as the current government is concerned anything that happened before that date is irrelevant.

vptoo (ex 206)

:D

And I refer the honourable gentlemen to my previous question:

:\ WHEN'S THE PARTY? :yuk:

Deliverance:

It may not be the "hardest" but it must be one of the longest, averaging over 8 months to complete.

Jackonicko:

Your distinguished history of maritime squadrons seems to have forgotten the two VCs that 201 Sqn have plus the "Croix de Guerre"

B15

No need to get so defensive old chap. I was not having a 'pop' at the Nimrod fleet, or suggesting the conversion phase be shortened, dumbed down or whatever. All I was saying is that the conversion element of the Nimrod fleet could perhaps be embedded within one of the Sqns, as per 23 Sqn (I think) for E-3Ds (I am sure the E-3D conversion process is also demanding!!) and as per the rest of the RAF with 2 Sqn fleets it would appear?!! It would save a Wg Cdr post, 3-4 Sqn Ldrs, maybe a building, etc. Then again maybe that is why it hasn't been suggested!!!!!


As for being out of the system, lost touch etc,.... I think not!!

Apart from the single-seaters, which OCU does this not apply to ?

:yuk:

As an aside, it's a fact that the Hercules OCU has long been recocognised as the most demanding OCU at Lyneham.

Everybody, but Navs, in particular, work very hard to hinder the objectives of every exercise, whch, as the course progresses, become more tedious and dull, both in the Sim and in the Air.

At the same time, they are expected to develop the ability to read and breathe at the same time to improve their potential for graduation.

:ok:

Clearly this will have no influence, but which sqn at Kinloss was AOCinC Strike NOT on?

Biggus,

Don't hold your breath on '
"Blowing the Sqn Fund on a pi55 up"

The Shedster blew the fund on the 85th, in 2001, and it hasn't recovered since!!!

PN - according to the blurb on the STC website, AOC-in-C served with 120 and 206. However, the details are a little vague, and leave open the possibility that he may have been with 201 as well...

Surely it would be better to put your energy into opposing the cuts in aircraft and crews?

This link might interest you.

In the 70s we had 3 squadrons with a nominal 8 crews each. The plan was to increase it to 9 crews per sqn to cope with the oil surveillance task, but we always struggled to maintain the 8 crews by juggling people around. I think we could probably have just managed 22 crews between the 3 sqns then.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned 201's claim to be the oldest sqn having formed from the old 1 RNAS Sqn.

"It may not be the "hardest" but it must be one of the longest"

Hmm - what one has often heard about Nimrod folk?

:E

Rubic,
The 22 crews mentioned is not just for the 2 Sqns it is for the entire station, trappers, teachers the whole deal.



ALWAYS assume NEVER check

At one time, 203 Sqn was considered to be the granddaddy of all the RAF maritime squadrons, since its origins could be traced to 1 RANU ... ho hum

So, no date set for the party yet?

Found it very hard to stay awake on the Nimrod OCU!

....yeah, me too.

JimNich,
Can't think of a time I went forward to the pointy end to serve you with tea when you weren’t carrying out eye lid inspection
be it 42, 236 or any number fromCXX to CCVI

Biggus and JimNich
You may have missed the thrust of my thread
The Nimrod OCU has moved on in leaps and bounds since the wall came down.The fast progress of new software and hardware has resulted in at least 2 reviews of the training syllabus in the last 5 years, all conducted by the staff, some of whom have had limited experience in such major events. The newly established educator at the time (the expert), provided helpful info on positioning of magiboards etc, but never performed a Task Analysis, Lesson plan or Objective Syllabus, as he was out of his depth due to unfarmiliarality with the job. and the number trades involved in a short time-scale production.
Additionally, the course length remained the same. The OCU taught basics and the Sqn Training Teams (STT's) traditionally picked up "special fits" (at least 6) to bring individuals and crews up to full CR standard within 9 months.
They feventually felt the pinch, mainly through manning levels and other demands, so the Sqn bosses appealed to the Ninrod Training and Standards Board ( the school governors) to change the input standard - post OCU. Some of these special fits have now become core skills and are taught to LCR, within the traditionally ring-fenced programme.
They then did a beauty. Recognising areas where more slots would be needed to consolidate basics; they agreed the extra time, but the course length was adjusted by taking out buffer days;these are essential to cover weather and unserviceabilities
Particularly a simulator ride 1st thing monday morning (HO!HO!). This reduced the flex quite a bit.
I remember the Sqn boss saying at the initial meeting -
" Ok chaps. I recognise this latest review is a big job and will take up a lot of your spare time. Unfortunately. it's not possible to extend the length of the OCU to accommodate the extra core skills and there is no extra funding. However, if you can identify savings during the review, please let me know!!

Brilliant!! He plays off a handicap of 6 by the way!

You mean your boss was actually prepared to accept inputs? Well, bugger me with a fishfork if that isn't a bit of a novel concept......

Jimmy Nich,
How'd u enjoy Orlando? Saw u walk past while I was queueing at Universal.

Circle Kay,
Hope the family r ok.

As for the thread, is this news new? Thought it had been out for a while.

Sea king old son!!

Me too - still, plenty of time to visit JoSpanners and enjoy some local hospitality!

Circle old chap, I was just conserving energy for the consumption of the next dairy cream sponge. An arduous and demanding task requiring all of my multi-tasking skills. And you have to say, there are some VERY strange things afoot at the ISK.

Mad Boom, sorry I missed you at Universal. Was I wearing my " If any of these effing kids ask me when we're going home again I'm going to effing garotte them" expression? Anyway hope you had a great time, we actually really enjoyed it despite the whinging offspring (place is wasted on kids).

Bouy 15, not entirely sure what you're on about here but suffice to say I was on 42 when the "Review of Training" was carried out. I think you're being a wee bit unfair to the educator though, poor chap was virtually shut out from day one as the seperate trades closed ranks, scuttled off to their respective offices and didn't come out again 'til they'd finished their own reviews. Had the process been allowed to develop properly (within a sensible time scale of course. A trifle more than say, two nano seconds) the educator could have been employed to produce a full Training Needs Analysis (of which the Task Analysis is only a small part). Sure, a lengthy and tortuous process but one I'm sure he would have completed extremely well without the nuisance of having to stop and carry out his primary duty of instructing students all the time.

I've got a headache now.:zzz:

Has the date for the party been set, yet?

:yuk:

Apparently, an ex OC B is still on the run with all the party money!!! (and a whole load of glassware!!)
;)

Hopefully it will all be a lot clearer come monday morning. As CXX are first to get the briefing maybe its them who are disbanding. It would be the decent thing to tell the disbanding Sqn first. All speculation of course.

JimNich that wouldn't be the ugly sod who looks a wee bit like a famous tennis player?

I here you escaped flogging around the sea at stupid feet, to flogging around at stupid feet looking for fishing boats but are doing more hours in one month than the P1 and P2 were doing in one year. (good onya BTW)

I hope the fish suppers in the northern Isles are as good as they say.

JimNich

Check your private messages.

Navoff

Hoots,

CXX seem like the right choice to go, but not the EASIEST, therefore I suspect it will be 206.

JN