22 Crews, 2 Sqns At Kinloss!!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
22 Crews, 2 Sqns At Kinloss!!!!
Just heard the latest that by 1st April 05 there will only be 22 crews and 2 operational squadrons left at ISK ( not including 42R ). I wonder which sqn will cease to be, 120, 206 or 201?????????????
NC - if precedent is followed, it will be the junior out of 201 and 206.
120 is protected (under the precedent) since it was awarded its standard early (for its work in the Battle of the Atlantic). Previously, this honour has ensured that it doesn't go in cuts. IIRC, there is evidence in the PRO that 120 wasn't due to receive Nimrod MR 1, but this was overturned when someone pointed out the matter of the standard.
By the by, this is why 617 is still with us - early award of standard, and despite being junior to a number of other numberplates, this has led to other units getting the chop.
When the RAF is cut back to 3 squadrons, they'll be II(AC), 120 and 617...
Now, where did I put my anorak?
120 is protected (under the precedent) since it was awarded its standard early (for its work in the Battle of the Atlantic). Previously, this honour has ensured that it doesn't go in cuts. IIRC, there is evidence in the PRO that 120 wasn't due to receive Nimrod MR 1, but this was overturned when someone pointed out the matter of the standard.
By the by, this is why 617 is still with us - early award of standard, and despite being junior to a number of other numberplates, this has led to other units getting the chop.
When the RAF is cut back to 3 squadrons, they'll be II(AC), 120 and 617...
Now, where did I put my anorak?
Didn't think it would be this much later...
Anyway, it runs something like this.
RAF sqns can be awarded their standard after completing 25 years of service (obviously, the unit must be extant and periods of disbandment are not included in the tally) or by 'earning the sovereign's appreciation following specially outstanding operations'.
120 and 617 are the only two sqns to fall into the latter category, which is why they have (or seem to) 'special' status when considering seniority, etc for disbandment/re-equipment.
All the other sqn numberplates are allocated/avoid disbandment on the basis of seniority. The Air Ministry and then MoD have drawn up lists of which units are the most senior in the air force, and these can be found in the PRO.
Obviously, the 30 year rule applies to these documents, but the order in 1973 was:
II(AC)
1
6
4
14
24
8
60
5
12
70
3
25 etc (there are 171 listed in total, so I'll stop there)
The order for the Nimrod sqns in that list is:
201 (43rd in seniority)
42 (77th)
206 (91st)
120 (98th)
All of them will have advanced since then, since some units ahead of them in 1968 are long gone, and will have slipped down the list.
If the precedent pertaining to standards is followed, then as J.A.F.O says, 206 will be the unlucky numberplate.
NB, though, that the rule does not always apply: when the F-4J entered RAF service, the number plate should have been 39 rather than 74, as the 39 plate was free (39 having disbanded and become 1 PRU in 1982 before the PRU was rebranded as 39 (1PRU) later on).
<removes anorak>
Anyway, it runs something like this.
RAF sqns can be awarded their standard after completing 25 years of service (obviously, the unit must be extant and periods of disbandment are not included in the tally) or by 'earning the sovereign's appreciation following specially outstanding operations'.
120 and 617 are the only two sqns to fall into the latter category, which is why they have (or seem to) 'special' status when considering seniority, etc for disbandment/re-equipment.
All the other sqn numberplates are allocated/avoid disbandment on the basis of seniority. The Air Ministry and then MoD have drawn up lists of which units are the most senior in the air force, and these can be found in the PRO.
Obviously, the 30 year rule applies to these documents, but the order in 1973 was:
II(AC)
1
6
4
14
24
8
60
5
12
70
3
25 etc (there are 171 listed in total, so I'll stop there)
The order for the Nimrod sqns in that list is:
201 (43rd in seniority)
42 (77th)
206 (91st)
120 (98th)
All of them will have advanced since then, since some units ahead of them in 1968 are long gone, and will have slipped down the list.
If the precedent pertaining to standards is followed, then as J.A.F.O says, 206 will be the unlucky numberplate.
NB, though, that the rule does not always apply: when the F-4J entered RAF service, the number plate should have been 39 rather than 74, as the 39 plate was free (39 having disbanded and become 1 PRU in 1982 before the PRU was rebranded as 39 (1PRU) later on).
<removes anorak>
Last edited by Archimedes; 5th Dec 2004 at 16:54.
I wonder how unusual it is, in more recent times, for an RAF squadron to get less than 6 months notice of disbandment. That is when they finally get around to announcing which one is to go (I presume that this hasn't happened yet or it would already be on this thread!).
Blow the Sqn fund on a big party guys!!
P.S I thought when you got down to 2 Sqns then a full blown OCU couldn't be justified on cost grounds, e.g current situation with VC-10s, E-3D, etc. (Not quite sure what the score is on C-130 fleet now there are 2 Sqns K and 2 Sqns J). I thought we ended up with Training Flights or embedded teaching cells within an Operational Sqn (I am old enough to remember the LTF at Binbrook!!).
Blow the Sqn fund on a big party guys!!
P.S I thought when you got down to 2 Sqns then a full blown OCU couldn't be justified on cost grounds, e.g current situation with VC-10s, E-3D, etc. (Not quite sure what the score is on C-130 fleet now there are 2 Sqns K and 2 Sqns J). I thought we ended up with Training Flights or embedded teaching cells within an Operational Sqn (I am old enough to remember the LTF at Binbrook!!).
So can we anticipate closure of the Nimrod OCU as well, being replaced by a flight within one of the two remaining Sqns, to bring the Nimrod fleet into line with current RAF widespread practice?
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: ecosse
Posts: 714
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes Biggus!
We went through lots of evolution in the 80-90''s
One brilliant idea at a Stn tactics board meeting, put forward by a Wg Cdr, was to create a local checking unit called the -"Training Wing Assement Team (****), which ,for some reason, didn't come to fruition - can't understand why?
Love Many, Trust a few, Always padle your own canoe!
Biggus old chap!
Youv\'e either been out of the system a long time, lost touch, or got some sort of aircraft type dementia.
The Nimrod OCU has long been recocognised as the most demanding OCU.
Everybody, but Navs, in particular, work very hard to achieve the objectives of every exercise, whch, as the course progresses, becomes more complicated and demanding, both in the Sim and in the Air.
At the same time, they are expected to develop "tactical awarness" to improve their potential for graduation
We went through lots of evolution in the 80-90''s
One brilliant idea at a Stn tactics board meeting, put forward by a Wg Cdr, was to create a local checking unit called the -"Training Wing Assement Team (****), which ,for some reason, didn't come to fruition - can't understand why?
Love Many, Trust a few, Always padle your own canoe!
Biggus old chap!
Youv\'e either been out of the system a long time, lost touch, or got some sort of aircraft type dementia.
The Nimrod OCU has long been recocognised as the most demanding OCU.
Everybody, but Navs, in particular, work very hard to achieve the objectives of every exercise, whch, as the course progresses, becomes more complicated and demanding, both in the Sim and in the Air.
At the same time, they are expected to develop "tactical awarness" to improve their potential for graduation
It is often suggested that the most distinguished of the ISK squadrons is No.120, thanks to its early experience with VLR Liberators, though its late war service was 'easier', and No.206 had a more distinguished history generally, in both Wars, while 201 was sidelined, to an extent, by being a Sunderland unit.
My opinion on this is, of course, in no way conditioned by my Dad's Wartime service on Lib VIs and VIIIs with 206........
If there are to be 22 crews, why not four or even five numberplates covering what would otherwise be 'A Flight' and help rescue some worthy maritime units from oblivion. The Wing Commander CO posts could be named as (say) No.18 'Biscay' Wing and No.19 'Battle of the Atlantic' Wing, taking on the badges and traditions of 18 and 19 Groups, thereby commemorating Coastal Command's great wartime Groups and its greatest achievements.
My opinion on this is, of course, in no way conditioned by my Dad's Wartime service on Lib VIs and VIIIs with 206........
If there are to be 22 crews, why not four or even five numberplates covering what would otherwise be 'A Flight' and help rescue some worthy maritime units from oblivion. The Wing Commander CO posts could be named as (say) No.18 'Biscay' Wing and No.19 'Battle of the Atlantic' Wing, taking on the badges and traditions of 18 and 19 Groups, thereby commemorating Coastal Command's great wartime Groups and its greatest achievements.
Jackonicko
You seem to be labouring (no pun intended) under the misapprehension that history began before 2 May 1997.
As far as the current government is concerned anything that happened before that date is irrelevant.
vptoo (ex 206)
And I refer the honourable gentlemen to my previous question:
WHEN'S THE PARTY? 
You seem to be labouring (no pun intended) under the misapprehension that history began before 2 May 1997.
As far as the current government is concerned anything that happened before that date is irrelevant.
vptoo (ex 206)
And I refer the honourable gentlemen to my previous question:
WHEN'S THE PARTY?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Back North
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Deliverance:
It may not be the "hardest" but it must be one of the longest, averaging over 8 months to complete.
Jackonicko:
Your distinguished history of maritime squadrons seems to have forgotten the two VCs that 201 Sqn have plus the "Croix de Guerre"
It may not be the "hardest" but it must be one of the longest, averaging over 8 months to complete.
Jackonicko:
Your distinguished history of maritime squadrons seems to have forgotten the two VCs that 201 Sqn have plus the "Croix de Guerre"
B15
No need to get so defensive old chap. I was not having a 'pop' at the Nimrod fleet, or suggesting the conversion phase be shortened, dumbed down or whatever. All I was saying is that the conversion element of the Nimrod fleet could perhaps be embedded within one of the Sqns, as per 23 Sqn (I think) for E-3Ds (I am sure the E-3D conversion process is also demanding!!) and as per the rest of the RAF with 2 Sqn fleets it would appear?!! It would save a Wg Cdr post, 3-4 Sqn Ldrs, maybe a building, etc. Then again maybe that is why it hasn't been suggested!!!!!
As for being out of the system, lost touch etc,.... I think not!!
No need to get so defensive old chap. I was not having a 'pop' at the Nimrod fleet, or suggesting the conversion phase be shortened, dumbed down or whatever. All I was saying is that the conversion element of the Nimrod fleet could perhaps be embedded within one of the Sqns, as per 23 Sqn (I think) for E-3Ds (I am sure the E-3D conversion process is also demanding!!) and as per the rest of the RAF with 2 Sqn fleets it would appear?!! It would save a Wg Cdr post, 3-4 Sqn Ldrs, maybe a building, etc. Then again maybe that is why it hasn't been suggested!!!!!
As for being out of the system, lost touch etc,.... I think not!!
Everybody, but Navs, in particular, work very hard to achieve the objectives of every exercise, whch, as the course progresses, becomes more complicated and demanding, both in the Sim and in the Air.
Champagne anyone...?
The Nimrod OCU has long been recocognised as the most demanding OCU.
As an aside, it's a fact that the Hercules OCU has long been recocognised as the most demanding OCU at Lyneham.
Everybody, but Navs, in particular, work very hard to hinder the objectives of every exercise, whch, as the course progresses, become more tedious and dull, both in the Sim and in the Air.
At the same time, they are expected to develop the ability to read and breathe at the same time to improve their potential for graduation.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Clearly this will have no influence, but which sqn at Kinloss was AOCinC Strike NOT on?
PN - according to the blurb on the STC website, AOC-in-C served with 120 and 206. However, the details are a little vague, and leave open the possibility that he may have been with 201 as well...