Iraq - is there ANY hope?
 

Well, here goes... I expect a torrent of abuse in these "PC" times but I believe some fellow patrons of this forum will agree:

The majority of middle eastern people are fools beyond help..

Why raise this issue? I sit here, fuming with inarticulate rage at the latest round of news on Falluja / Sunni vs Shia / Insurgent attacks / Hostage taking / Civilian Murders/ ETC... ETC... and think "What's the point? Are these people the most worthless members of our global society today? Does any other geo-political area create as big a drain on world resources for such little gain???"
(And I think the pathological "US haters" should re-read that last question closely before launching their tirades).

I honestly think that most of the people of Iraq (and others of it's ilk - you can insert any undemocratic, women-hating, religiously oppresive middle eastern nation here) are the living personification of pointlessness. They appear to exist to do one thing and one thing only: hate the rest of the world for their problems. It's as almost as if they have taken the art of the "legalised criminal" (e.g. someone breaks into your house, cut's himself on broken glass and sues you) and turned it into a central cultural tenet. I just cannot accept that a nation that has been liberated from an unimaginable tyrant can rapidly resort to such barbarism and anti-coalition hatred. It defies logic - and I don't think it's limited to isolated pro-ba'athist areas or a few firebrand clerics.

It appears the general populace (Kurds exlcuded) are downright sh!tty that they have the chance to become a democratically run, un-oppressed nation!! I can imagine meeting a (very stereotypical) Iraqi and asking him/her what they dislike about the West: "Why, because you are infidel dogs of course... I curse your car driving women and spit on your non-AK47 wielding youth".

Someone tell me I'm wrong, please give me reason to believe that this place isn't deserving of being returned to the stone-age to match it's apparent intellectual level. All of this is making me think I may be on the verge of becoming a facist... Say it isn't so! :uhoh:

So what causes this immense feeling of hatred? Is it religious (Islam, or more correctly Fundamental Islamic beliefs)? Is it American foreign policy (that old chestnut - the "they started it" argument) or is some deep seated resentment of Western economic prosperity? Perhaps it's a complex fusion of all of the above? (The safe "Western broadsheet" editorial reasons that are being trotted out on a regular basis).

Well, as Kent Brockman would say: "Here's my 2 cents": as a firm believer in 'Occam's Razor' I suspect that the real reason for these "malcontents" is this: They're simply @rseholes.

But I risk sinking to their level unless I proffer more compelling explanations. The problem is, I've never visited the Middle East, never known an Iraqi and therefore comprise your classic 'armchair' expert. I want to be wrong, I need to be wrong. So I ask some of the more worldly wise PPruners whether my beliefs are unfounded? If not, why are they the way they are?:confused:

You're an "armchair" something certainly.....

Might I suggest that you devote your 'armchair opinions' to more suitable programmes for your intellect...like...say.... Jerry or trishia or? Oh, and spare a thought for the boys and girls out there in danger trying to diffuse this difficult situation, whilst people like you just sit at home and criticise.

I don't understand where you are coming from tabmonkey
:confused:

I didn't see any critisizing of our boys and girls, just a post to get some information that might help Macchi understand the people in the Middle East.
:confused:

"Oh-oh"... you are spot on, I'm glad someone read the message. I applaud our boys & girls and think they're doing an effing brilliant job considering the circumstances, and I firmly believe they need to be there.

Mr. Champagne thanks for your enlightened input. Tab monkey, I fail to see how this topic is worthy of "Jerry" as you so eloquently put it. Perhaps if we return to the big issues like whose aircraft is best? Or which mess provides the best "egg & banjos"? maybe then you would be happier.

If you don't like the issue, don't waste bandwith with meaningless drivel, simply don't reply and let the topic sink into obscurity.

My question still stands, who can give me an insight into the middle eastern mind & culture? Is it fuedal, tribal, patriarchal etc...?:confused:

I'm curious for professional reasons because I'm close to taking a job with a certain company (rhymes with sh!ttish hair-oh-face) teaching certain people how to defy Allah's gravity. Well, it would have to be for a WHOLE lot more than they offered, unless my opinion of this culture is wrong/unfounded (and yes I realise I am talking about two different countries here). Wahabism does seem to have parallels with the Iraq issues, though. I know that this forum is very RAF-centric therfore I figured many of it's patrons have had experience in the sand pit.

By the way, it appears big brother has subtly changed the title of the topic - fair call & sorry if it caused offence!!

NO! To your question and the suggested alternative. So don't push it!

PPP

Macchi,

Are Iraqis "the living personification of pointlessness" ? The question, although itself pointless and somewhat ignorant, is no doubt being asked by plenty of people. One answer (for there are many) is that they are no more or less pointless than any of us who live in the Western 'civilised' world. They are simply different.

Saddam was, without question, a tyrant. His demise has probably benefited Iraq and the World. However, now that he has gone, who are we to dictate how the culture of a nation should develop? Iraq, like most of the Middle East, is based on a history of tribalism (and extreme violence, like every culture) and it is sheer arrogance to believe that we can or should try to change that by force. Why should their way of life be any less worthy than our McDonalds fed, High Street driven, soulless existence over here?

The drain on our global society is not, as you suggest, caused by the Middle East but perpetuated by the West's insatiable desire for its oil (see Gulf War I). It seems that sometimes our hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Don't get me wrong, I have served out there and my Wife is currently doing her bit too, and I am extremely proud of her and what we (the British armed forces) have done so far. Unfortunately we can't simply bang out and leave them to it, however we need to be extremely careful that we do not become sucked into a policy of bloody culture change that we cannot possibly see through. Treating the population of the Middle East as you suggest is one step closer to that policy.

Besides, the real trouble makers have always been the French......

As a British ambassador to Saudi Arabia was once quoted as saying of the Saudi people - "they are both unlovely and unloved".
Same goes for Iraq I believe.
Democracy does not sit well with the M.E culture.

Quote:

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The majority of middle eastern people are fools beyond help.

---

I don't really like admitting that I agree with this statement, because if I do, I cannot deny that I am a racist, (and every other thing that the hippies accuse me of being!!)

But after coming to my own conclusion I am afraid I do agree with it,
Islam has been force fed since birth and to question the religion would bring dire social and possibly life threatening consequences to anybody, be it family, friend, relative or neighbour.

The religion preaches superiority over other religions and if you have been told since birth that yours was superior to any other religion and that Allah will guide you successfully through war and the prophet Mohammad's (peace be on him :ugh: ) sword will crush any infidel invader.
Then see you see your nations army Decimated in 3 weeks by these infidels and your Arab neighbours did nothing to help your plight, and still they do not question anything to do with values or religion? To focused looking foward to Nirvana and all the Virgin's they will get in the next life!

We see on the news everyday some large group somewhere in the middle east, strutting their stuff and preaching anti western slogans but still drive around in western cars use western mobile phones TV’s etc, etc. Have you ever wondered what they have contributed to modern civilisation (talking in the last 300 years or so!) other then be fortunate enough to have built there sandcastles over massive oil fields, but the vast majority of the wealth is kept in the royal families!

We even see the so called intellectuals, (the best they have to offer) come on air from time to time and give us an insight on how bad there best is, I saw one the other night saying how great the sleighing, burning and hanging of the American contractors is and how it serves the Americans right, and how the Iraqi people are looking forward to seeing it happen again! Then on the BBC tonight a good long interview in a market in Baghdad with an Iraqi writer (who would have been slaughtered under the old leadership) giving out hell because Iraq was not the Oasis in the Desert that he claims was promised by the Americans even though it has only been 12 months!

I understand that the Arab mindset is going to be different, but it is just filled to breaking point with Hypocrisy that anything in the way of Progress is a long way off, despite its natural resources and all the lending hands!

Terrible shame that a portion of the Human race lets itself fall so far behind the rest and so many lives are being lost because of the mindset.

Pi**es me off to see Brits/Yanks/ et al trying to bring some stability out there and being treated by the mob the way they are. So, sorry to say it, but let's return them to the dark ages where they appear determined to end up.

Remove it ALL. NO Western advice, technology or contact. And all those preaching anti-western hatred here to join them. And then let's see just how long before they come begging to develop and sell their oil to get $$$.

(And yes, I've been there, seen it, and done it in GW1).

I have lived in the Middle-East for just over 5 years, although at the other end of the Gulf from Iraq - in Oman.

Just over 30 years ago this place was not far off the stone ages. It was illegal to educate your children, there were no records so people did not even know how old they were or when their birthday was. There were no hospitals. The only road was 7km long and went from the palace to the airport. Today, there are universities, hospitals, roads, bureacracy (you can't get everything right) and the people are civilised and friendly. Islam is still the "state religion", but there are christian churches here as well. There is even an advisory parliament for which there are elections, and there are women elected as well. My point is, not all of the Gulf is like Iraq now.

You also have to consider what the Iraqis have been through under Saddam. They have only known fear and now there are some power struggles going on, that are being enforced by the same kind of thugs that supported Saddam. I read quite a revealing comment today by an Iraqi on one of the Web Logs. He said that those who are trying to take power now, assumed that democracy meant a dictatorship by the majority. It will take time to overcome the power of the warlords/clerics.

We started this so we're going to have to finish it, otherwise it will all have been for nothing - no WMD and no freedom for the Iraqis.

And another thing, when any public figure ever speaks there mind in relation to the lack of leadership or fundamentalist problems in the Arab/ Islamic faith, and state the undeniable truth's.
They will be blasted in the media and some Islamic expert somewhere will come on and say that "You cannot say that" instead of taking it on board and addressing the issue!

Isn't it awfully sad, seeing the very recent media pictures of the growing rebellion against the Allied forces in Iraq?
If it wasn't for these same forces being there, only just over a year ago the rioters would have been done away with for being out on the streets posing a threat (in case it got out of hand and turned against Hussein).
Also, in the pictures I have seen, most of the perpetrators of mayhem seem to be mainly youths and young men. Is this because they are the most fervent, or the most easily "fired up" and led on?

[QUOTE]We started this, so we are going to have to end it[QUOTE]

All the scribes ( particularly the anti-war liberals) repeat this mantra and no one challenges them.

We went to war because Tony Blair believed the WMD threat served up to him by creeps in the upper reaches of the intelligence services. I also trusted Blair/JIC and supported the war on that basis. There was an imminent threat to the UK and its interests, so lets go sort it out. IMHO thats what the armed services are paid for - not to go around "changing" uncongenial régimes.

It has turned out that the JIC assessment was crap. (Not for the first time. It is a predominantly civil service organisation and attracts creeps like honey attracts bees). So having had a good look around and found no WMDs or any capacity to produce them, why could we not have declared "Endex" and bu**ered off home"?

I have lived in the ME long enough to know that Islam has no clear idea of property rights, and so makes capitalism almost impossible. THis probably accounts for the economic stagnation of the whole region. Lets face it - who in their right mind would lend money to an Arab (or a Turk) with the hope of seeing their money again plus interest? Also Islam is an authoritarian religion, does not recognise an individual "free will" (which lies at the root of Christian values) and is therefore inimical to democracy.

As for oil, the West ought to use the time that has been bought by the recent discoveries in the Caspian basin to develop a hydrogen-based economy.

So what's this got to do with flying?
 

Gents, we all might have a point of view about Iraq and the military occupation, but it is out of order to use PPRuNe as our soapbox.

We've all got opinions about many things and the WWW has many places for us to air them. So, forgive my interruption here, but if I might suggest....Lets keep PPRuNe as our own little corner of the web dedicated to talking about fast jets, foreign parts and bombing people we don't like....

Strangely enough, the first thing that came into my mind after reading 'bombing people we don't like' was Blair.

Maachi is closer to the truth than we usually dare admit. The fundamentalists in the Middle East would have their people living in the Dark Ages. Any study of their beliefs and the direct conflict they pose in the 21st Century can only validate that situation.

To take issue with them, and consider them lacking, does not make one a Racist. To ignore their xenophobic hatred of things Western and Christian is to show poor judgement.

As much as is wrong with Western culture, there is much worse in the culture the Islamic Fundamentalists wish to force upon the world. Any religion that purports to endorse murder for the furtherance of that religion is evil.

I have lived amongst our Arab and Islamic brethren for years and have to agree with the view that they as a people are the cause of their own suffering.

The UN study that discribed the situation so accurately has been ignored by the world's media. Arab and Islamic scholars studied the Middle East and determined the oppressive and backwards view of the ruling classes (includes the Mullahs and Clerics) all base their power upon keeping the masses isolated from outside influences.

The lack of education for women, withholding of medical care for women, the lack of books translated "into" Arabic, lack of access to the internet, lack of industrial infrastructure, and the like all set the Islamic nations up for failure in the modern world.

One excuse for the young Saudi's being unhappy is the lack of jobs...but yet 65% of the workers in Saudi are foreigners....while the Saudi's report an unemployment figure of 25%. Now what Rocket Scientist cannot come up with an answer for that situation?

I for one, am sick and tired of hearing how it is the Western World's fault for all the problems. The Islamic Fundamentalists are merely Fascists in Jhrobes! When they put forth an honest effort to move into the modern world then I will begin to listen to their complaints but not until then.

Excellent post SASless, couldn't agree with you more.
To say that this is irrelevant to Military aircrew is a big mistake, a lot of military folk may find themselves over there for many years to come, and although everybody should go over with an open mind, the islamic mindset should be addressed to prepare ones self, it is very "different" to the rest of the world, Russia and Asia included.

Would love to hear an Arabic view of what is being discussed here.

ME
 

To understand a little of the problem of the ME you only have to see the date on their calender. It is about 600 years behind ours.

Maybe that is where we should leave them.

They (the Arabs) are still miffed about the Crusaders, and I don't mean the Sqn.

For those that know me, look totally PC!!

I too have spent a lot of time in the Middle East. The better educated ones are not a bad bunch, those with no education or little intelligence are easily led - just as in any poor nation. They are promised better homes/life etc if they support this or that group. The leaders of that group know how to manipulate the general population.

As was the case in our own country in the middle ages, religion is used to police the masses. The threat of some omnipitent policeman (God/Allah or whomever) is used to threaten the uneducated with punishment if they step out of line. That same god will protect them from any threat and therefore deserves their unquestioning support.

These people have noting else to 'hang their hat on' except for Allah and fighting the infidel. It will take years to change that (it took over 1000 years in our own country).

Whilst I didn't agree wholeheartedly with the reasons for going to war in the first place, if we pull out now then all has been for nothing. Some other dictator will assume power, there will be a big tribal, civil war and the whole region will be destabilised. The Kurds and the other 'friendly' factions will be abandoned (again) and we will skulk off to save a few quid on our defence budget.

PS, if we do pull out - I hope we never have the audacity to poke our ever weakening nosesinto some other nations business again!

Forgot to say - perhaps a dictatorial regime is best in places where the masses are uneducated? At least there is a modicum of civil order. The coalition needs to get tough and learn from the Iraqi methods until the people have chance to educate and civilise their masses. Huge investment will be needed from the 'West' as the population will always be discontent unless they see their standard of life improve.

Vage,

Congratulations on attempting a sensible, level headed and intelligent analysis, and one which avoids a xenophobic and racist lumping together of all Arabs as suicide-bombing, Western-hating nutters.

It's profoundly depressing to see intelligent people coming out with what their grandparents would have said about Germans (who were all, without exception, Jew-hating, arrogant, evil Nazi monsters intent on World domination). If we substitute the word negro or Jew where we've used Arab or Moslem, the degree of racism on this thread would be pretty stark.

There are some good, honest, honourable people in the Middle East (including ill-educated and relatively poor ones) who deserve our understanding and support.

Like these two:

[b]Wednesday, 28 August, 2002, 10:26 GMT 11:26 UK

Queen honours Afghan guards

Proud recipients: Sayed Afzal and Zahoor Shah in Kabul

Two Afghans who have guarded the British Embassy in Kabul through decades of conflict have been awarded honorary MBEs for their loyal service.

Zahoor Shah, 57, and Sayed Afzal, 59, have for much of the time been the only ones at the British outpost, dodging bombs and rockets from the onslaught of Soviet, Mujaheddin and Taleban fighters.

At a special ceremony on Tuesday, the guards, who between them have clocked up more than 70 years of service, were given medals making them honorary Members of the British Empire.

They were then invited by British ambassador Ron Nash to a traditional cup of English tea on the embassy lawn.

To the sound of a lone bagpiper in the background, Mr Nash told the two guards: "We are here to pay tribute to you. You have worked faithfully to protect our embassy.

"There has been physical danger and war around you...and you have taken care of our possessions for many years when there was no British ambassador and no British officials."

The loyal guards even refused entry to British troops who turned up in Kabul late last year after the defeat of the Taleban.

It fell to the British High Commission in neighbouring Pakistan to explain to the pair that the new arrivals should be let in.

Foreign and Commonwealth Office spokesperson Jeff Wilson recalls meeting the pair on his visit to Kabul last November, saying they did "a fabulous job" taking care of visitors and officials.

Mr Wilson told BBC News Online that only a handful of honours are handed out each year to local employees at overseas missions for their long and dedicated service.

Mr Shah has worked at the embassy for 30 years and holds the position of head of household.

The housekeeper, whose three sons now work at the embassy, has served though dangerous times.

He recalled how one person was killed on the embassy premises and several injured when a rocket fell in the grounds during the violent civil war of the early 1990s.

Mr Shah said: "The British have been good to me. I have served them very faithfully and will continue to do so."

Mr Afzal, who works as gatekeeper, has served the Foreign Office uninterrupted for 40 years, keeping out fighters of successive conflicts.

"For 13 years the embassy was closed altogether, but I did not allow anyone to pass," he said.

"Once the Taleban asked us to let them in and asked what was there. I told them just a few old tables and chairs and they went away."

The pair were paid a salary and given money towards the upkeep of the site even during the times the embassy was closed.

Many of the treasures housed at the embassy have remained intact thanks to the guards' diligent service, including a fine gilded bone china tea set used to serve the tea at Tuesday's ceremony.

Like his colleague, Mr Afzal said he was honoured to be given a prize by Queen Elizabeth.

"I will work here until I am fired. When someone at the embassy says I must stop, then I will stop." [/i]

There was a more recent (very similar story) about the sole local employee who stayed on and safeguarded the British Embassy in Iraq, this time without pay, who carefully packed and buried the most valuable stuff, and kept the lawns tended....

The present situation in Iraq is appalling, of course, and no-one could have anything but contempt for the scum who are rioting and kidnapping Westerners. But it's hard not to conclude that poor and inconsistent policy by the Americans, exacerbated by heavy-handedness, arrogance and ignorance by US troops on the ground hasn't at least been a contributory factor in turning all sides against the occupation.

I read a very interesting letter in the Torygraph the other week, written by a Muslim from Pakistan, which basically asked why the Islamic world refused to acknowledge that the majority of their problems were of their own making and asked other questions like what major contributions has the Islamic world made to the scientific world in the last 2000 years.
Having served in Iraq during the conflict the thing that struck me most was the smouldering resentment behind the polite greetings - it was a case of "Thanks for coming but don't outstay your welcome" - we have obviously outstayed our welcome and should leave them to stew in their own juices.

Where their is light, their is hope

A woman was walking along the beach when she stumbled upon a Genie's lamp.

She picked it up and rubbed it, and lo-and-behold a Genie appeared. The
amazed woman asked if she got three wishes.

The Genie said, "Nope ... due to inflation, constant downsizing, low wages in third-world countries, and fierce global competition, I can only grant you one wish. So...what'll it be?"

The woman didn't hesitate. She said, "I want peace in the Middle East.
See this map? I want these countries to stop fighting with each other."

The Genie looked at the map and exclaimed, "Gadzooks, lady! These countries have been at war for thousands of years. I'm good but not THAT good! I don't think it can be done. Make another wish."

The woman thought for a minute and said, "Well, I've never been able to find the right man. You know, one that's considerate and fun, likes to cook and helps with the house cleaning, is good in bed and gets along with my family, doesn't watch sports all the time, and is faithful.
That's what I wish for... a good mate."



The Genie let out a long sigh and said, "Let me see that f****n' map!"

Sitting comfortably in my armchair watching events on CNN and BBC World, I wonder if we are now beginning to see the reason why Saddam Hussein was as he was.

Take some time to reflect on the fact that he led a military coup to overthrow a half mad military dictator and that he did it with the help of western countries.

As to the rabid anti-islamic element posting here, I must say that there are plenty of peaceful and, in their own way, more or less democratic islamic nations around the world. There are even one or two islamic absolute monarchies that are examples of good governance too. As a matter of fact, the overwhelming majority of muslims do not live in the middle east, nor are they 'oil rich'. For example, there are more muslims in China than there are in Iraq; although they are not self-governing and are oppressed by the state, they are in general as peaceable and likeable a bunch of folks as one could wish to meet.

Beware of generalising solely on the basis of media reports or experience on the ground only in Iraq and Afghanistan - Bush & Blair took a wrong turning through listening to just one side of a complex story.

Perhaps the bunches of thugs carrying out these hi-jackings should reflect upon the Beirut experience....

British and other folk were being hi-jacked for months on end and suffering whilst politicos blundered slowly about wringing their hands, not many Russians were taken hostage. It seems that one was taken hostage, but the good old KGB didn't suffer fools gladly or worry too much about political correctness. So they grabbed one of the ringleaders, then sent his testicles back in a box with a note saying "Release our citizen and don't do it again - or you'll be next!".

He was swiftly released........

In yesterdays Times it was stated that - stripping out oil - the Muslim countries contribution to world GDP was less than that of the Nokia phone company.

Something that got my eyebrows waggling. I think it may be distinctly unlucky to strike oil in the long run.

I thought the big picture is that Sept11th and Al Quaeda eminate from Saudi - so Saudi has gotta fall. That can't happen until there is a replacement in the region for the Saudi oil supply. That replacement is Iraq and its nearly ready what with production way up on pre-war levels at this time.

So now we wait until November for Mr Bush to win the election and then Saudi Arabia gets the good news in the form of a US enforced embargo. Within a matter of weeks the edifice of Saudi Royal family crumbles into total civil revolt. In steps Uncle Sam to restore order and in time another Western style democracy.

When Bush finally retires Saudi and Iraq have been made to be democracies and Iran went that way anyway.

Anyone agree that this is the plan?

Cheers


WWW

Some very well made comments on here, perhaps more insightful than the generalisations repeated daily by the broadsheets.

SASless: any chance you have a link to that UN study? I think it would be an interesting read but can't find anything on the web.

Cheers.

Just remember that just as all us Europeans are far from alike, so Arabs vary. Ali Barber said it: the people of Oman are warm, friendly and welcoming and their country has made great strides. They may not be a democracy as we understand it, but then democracy does not suit everyone. Perhaps our US cousins should remember that. If the outside world judged the UK by the barabaric events of Northern Ireland a few years ago, they could easily draw conclusions similar to those which started this thread.

My personal view on living in the ME is that there is not enough money printed to take me to Saudi Arabia. I cannot understand anyone working there for a regime as unpleasant as that. However, there are other states within the region where life can be very pleasant; each to his own.

For Mr Pockets...

More books translated into Spanish in a year than into Arabic in a thousand…
Here’s the report
http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/ahdr2/...3_bios.qxd.pdf

and here’s an article
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04102/299292.stm

There’s more on the web, I found a good Guardian article before but can’t now. Good luck.

I know it's from a tabloid, but the pics are quite clear.
This kind of behaviour would only worsen the situation, and when you abuse a prisoner for no reason at all, then you are no better then the terror you are trying to fight.....

Beating up and pissing on prisoners

Who is allegedly in charge of these vicious little yobs?

Once the SIB (and good luck to them!) have rounded these ba$tards up and they've been jailed for a very long time, the SNCOs should be reduced to the ranks and imprisoned along with these cowardly bullies.

The 'officers' in charge should be handed the Mess Webley and a single round each.

It would be reassuring to think this was an 'isolated incident', but, sadly, I suspect there is more of this sort of thing to come.

Why????????????
 

Disgusting...absolutely disgusting....

But step back and think..Why take photos of it? Incriminating at the least..who developed them? Who's turned them over to the press? Why? Hopefully to stop it.

Strange though, that they should appear less than 24 hrs after the imagery of the Yanks doing it..setup perhaps????..(conspiracy theory now runs amock). Perhaps the Ham Shanks have had them appear to take the 'limelight' off their misdeeds.

If they are bona, then let's hope that SIB do a better job than they normally do and get the guys involved, then nail them up by their nether regions to the front gates of Whitehall.

I think that I may have to resort to the pencils and boxershort trick if they ask me to go to the 'Sandpit' in the near future..I wouldn't want to face a large group of Iraqis right now.

My thoughts turned immediately to the atrocities that occurred in the the last war, and to what Saddam and his vicious thugs, he called his sons, did to the Iraqis, things our guys and the yanks discovered in their travels up from the Gulf to wherever. All the stories were of degradation, torture and the most vile of acts against another, which filled one with disgust and revulsion!

Now, **** me, we are doing it! What does that make us (the coalition)? I can't believe that we were capable of it but now the truth is there for all to see and these despicable excuses for soldiers must be kicked out of the forces as fast as due process will allow. Tomorrow would not be soon enough.

I am ashamed that our forces did this. I hope they get the worst possible sentence in the worst possible place - where the staff will break them.

General Jackson said today that he would act swiftly to bring these lowlife to justice. I think, and hope, that he will.

In God's name what possessed them?

I've spent about four years in Iraq, pre and post GW II as a civvy. I've previously served in uniform so I think I can get a reasonable take on what's happening from both sides.

Firstly, this is the first reasonable thread I've read concerning this subject, unlike R&N, here there at least seems to be an effort to understand the issue rather than flaming it.

This is my experience:

The Iraqi people in the main are quite erudite and by regional standards well educated. In fact, prior to GW I, their education system was probably better in terms of quality and access than many "developed" counties. Albeit, certain subjects were slanted to suit the regime.

They are also deeply religious. In my opinion, Islam is a very difficult religion to understand clearly when you come from a Christian background. It may appear similar, but the nuances are complex. Seemingly minor issues (dog in a house?) can have major implications.

Muslims defer to God (Allah) as the ultimate authority. As a previous poster mentioned, the emphasis on individual moral authority is very different to Christianity. The Quran contains guidelines on many issues other than religion, for example, it contains guidelines for business transactions (interest is not to be charged on a loan). As with most religions, its the interpretation that divides the fundamentalists from the moderates. Unfortunately, the fundamentalists get the TV airtime and being branded "terrorists" coupled with a often condecending attitude because of their simple lifestyle, leads to an unfair generalisation.

Due to the above, I personally don't think western style democracy will lead to a stable environment in Iraq, or any other ME country. Dictator or Monarchy - take your pick. I haven't even gone into the aspects of tribalism that also supports this view.

Moving on, I agree with the previous poster (WWW?) that oil alone is not the motivation behind GW II, the Saudi theory is interesting. My opinion is that it was a personal quest on the part of GWB. I know that is sounds too simplistic to be true but where is the evidence to the contrary? TB got on board to try and exert some influence then got sucked in past the point of no return.

It is important to seperate the political issue of invading Iraq and its motives from the troops on the ground. These guys are just doing their job. I had dealing with both the Brits and the Yanks (I'm neither BTW) while I was there. The Brits were consummate professionals, I've dealt with many military forces in many countries and have to say that they are peerless - bar none. The Yanks seemed to make decisions far higher up the CoC, which creates delays, but, not complaining about my experience - USMC seem a little more "switched on"

The recent pictures showing ill treatment of prisoners are saddening. Any professional soldier would be disgusted. I fear these incidents will play into the hands of the fundamentalists when it comes to swaying middle ground Iraqi opinion.

On a lighter note (slightly) I heard a story there a few years ago that there was a guy in Baghdad tending to the graves of British military war dead for years with no salary. Apparentley it was being paid into an offshore bank a/c and he couldn't access it - anyone got info on this one?

Sorry for the length of this post but you have to unload somewhere.

:ok:

mini:

top post and well explained. Nice to see that the Yanks have finally(?) admitted defeat in Fallujah..... the difference in approach between the US and Brits (and others) surely counts for something, if only a lower body-count.....
What sort of credibility does a President who only travelled outside the US after being elected have, exactly? Who is pulling his strings? I for one would not trust one D. Rumsf*ld esq. as far as I could throw him....one very, very dangerous puppy IMHO.

BTW: Can it be true that only 4% of US citizens have passports?

Is anybody else having difficulty understanding why the resistance to the coalition is so strong and yet they were apparently incapable of overthrowing Saddam?

Perhaps they liked him?

Or maybe he had a more effective way of ruling Iraq?

They sure don't seem to like the alternative that much.

The Daily Mirror pictures are fakes.

No slings on the weapons, errors in the theatre uniform, too well lit, too little movement.

The Spams may well have a case to answer but I think the Lancastrians will be exonerated. We are not the only ones capable of PsyOps...

Cheers

WWW

WWW

There's nothing wrong with the theatre uniform, unless you're talking about the green webbing straps - which we all had as desert webbing is bloody difficult to get gold of unless you come from certain units or are sleeping with a stacker! And the sling clips are on the left of the weapon which you can't see.

However, I must commend their unit SNCOs - if all their 4-tonners and weapons are as clean as that after x months in the desert, then they can come and teach my lads how to keep their kit that clean in the UK. And did they have a sun roof in the back to let so much light in? Or was that just because the journo that happened to be there at the time had set the lighting up for best effect???

Also, and call me a spotter if you like, but from what I heard / read they were beaten up and thrown from a moving truck. Two comments on this based on the pics:

1. For someone getting a rifle in the family jewels, this chap looks very relaxed and laid back. I know what I'd be doing in his situation - and that's doing my hedghog impression and getting my nuts as far inside my rib cage as possible!

2. Notice the chain in the corner or the wagon just behind the Iraqi? That locks the tail gate in place, but hangs down. It's hanging perfectly still -no movement in it at all. Bit odd for a truck that's supposed to be moving don't you think?

This whole thing stinks. If I'm right, and I hope I am (would even the Queen's Last Resort be this bad? ) the timing of this whole thing is questionable, and funny old thing it's the Daily Mirror yet again with another totally true exclusive about the war. If I'm wrong, then I agree with BEagle - pass the Mess revolver round!

As for the Yanks admitting defeat in Fallujah. No way. I was in Iraq with some of the USMC that are there currently and there's no way they'd give so easily. This is all political. The only way the insurgents will be smoked out in Fallujah is through overwhelming force. However this is becoming politically unacceptable to Bush et al. So the ideal solution - send in the Iraqis, but under the command of an ex-Saddam era General who probably knows a thing or two about use of force and has been hired to do the American's work for them so the US govt can't be seen to have too much blood on their hands.

You think it's bad now - give it a couple of weeks and watch the chaos really begin. Is that the sound of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse I hear approaching???

Edited after being a spotter and having another good look at the pics.

PS. With my last comment, I guess the 'powers that be' will take offence and edit.

You are damn right we did. You get no rights on here to show such stuff and make such comments. You get no rights to make further comment on this thread either. It's going well without your crass inputs.

PPP

Don't rush to conclusions.
 

The call "fake piccies" is one based purely on individual opinion.
The link Bill gives is a forum similar to this, so should be taken lightly.

As much as I think we would all like them to be fake, the arguments given for them to be, don't really seem to stand up if you have any knowledge of the real Army.

Just turn up at a unit on exercise after day 5 and you'll see what I mean!