There have been people commenting on the Iraqi situation with views that cover the whole spectrum, from Grandpa at the one extreme to Bubbette at the other. Neither camp seems well disposed to let the other’s arguments or opinions move them one millimetre from their entrenched mental bunkers.

Could I suggest that people from both camps do themselves an enormous favour and read something that might shatter their illusions, particularly those who think that democracy can be imposed on a society not ready for it? The Coming Anarchy : Shattering the Dreams of the Post Cold War by Robert D. Kaplan.

Some Ppruners might remember I mentioned this book some years ago on the now defunct Current Affairs Forum (or whatever it was called) on Pprune. Why The US Government wasn’t – isn’t - listening to this man is totally beyond me, for he makes such perfect sense it’s scary to see the leadership of the US going in what amounts to the opposite direction in their pursuit of a peaceful solution to the morass they’ve got themselves into in Iraq.

Perhaps it is because Kaplan was associated with the Clinton Administration - I don’t know. However, I do know that I blame the Clinton Administration as much as I do the Bush people for the mess the US is in in Iraq (and let’s face it, worldwide) today. If Clinton had responded appropriately to the first Al Qaeda attacks instead of pussyfooting around and running, (as he did from Somalia), at the first sign of US casualties, the leadership of Al Qaeda would have got the message that there is a price to be paid for attacking the US. Instead, they saw what they construed to be weakness and upped the ante, just as the Iraqi ‘insurgents’ will until the US reacts appropriately – in Arab eyes, which means with extreme force – to the anarchy that is taking over the streets of Iraq.

Whatever happens, the US is going to be hated in the Arab world. If you’re going to be hated, let it be as a winner.


Advertising is NOT allowed

Seems the Daily Mirror has decided the photo's are fakes.

They are now being described as "accurate illustrations".

As I remember, when they were released they were "authentic photographs"

(Sky News)

Watch the arse covering in the media if that is finally proven. Piers Morgan really is a c:mad: t putting extra points scoring danger in the way of honourable servicemen and women !
:* :* :*

The "accurate illustrations" are about as accurate as the Daily Mirror usually is on almost any subject.

Time to say goodbye, Piers.

Yes I do have a naturally suspicious nature, it has kept me alive numerous times when Pilots have tried to kill me!!

But does any one else smell a rat that the one paper that stood against Bliar and the war, is now shoe horned into printing false piccys??

Mmm payback time methinks!!

:ok:

And while every other paper leads with the horrific beheading of an American contractor, Nick Berg , 26 years young.

The Daily mirror sees fit to continue to ignore all the massive deadly attrocities carried out by insurgents and Saddam loyalists and obscures the real reasons the war was fought for in the first place.
But instead decides to focus its attention on something that probably isn't even true, and even if it is, is miniscule in comparison to the main headline on all other papers, and by doing so, risking the lives and jeopordising the safety of every Westerner over in Iraq.

I would really like to see that Paper go out of buisness, that tabloid in particular gives your country a terrible name and reputation abroad.

I wonder if the Mirror is ignoring the Beheading on the front page because the ar.....es who run the paper are responsible for what has happened? The US pictures are bad enough, but to the Islamic activist i'm sure the 'accurate illustration' of a soldier p....ng on an Iraquis head has somewhat inflamed the situation. US or UK it doesn't matter, its the coilition that counts, and thats all the activist can see.

Morgan - you have blood on your hands now, and I fear it's not the end of it. To the sad t....rs who fabricated the pictures for the Mirror for ten grand or whatever, the money will go quickly. You too have blood on your hands, remember what happened to Judas and his 30 pieces of silver. I bet you're really feeling good now after watching the news this morning.



Could everybody, including messes etc stop buying the Daily Mirror? Just an idea!

More sanctamonious tosh from those more irritated by fabricated photos than the Genieva convention. If USA and/or UK are to have any chance of sorting the mess that is Iraq they must be squeeky clean. Fact that MOD seem to have known about it, command in the field did not prevent it at the outset and are now being evasive says it all. Oh yes and where are the WMD Tony?

I witnessed this morning a chap at my local petrol station. He walked right up to a stack of Daily Mirror papers, unzipped his fly and urinated all over them.

I actually stopped filling my car and clapped.

No - if a thousand of us all do the same tomorrow morning - it will make the national news...

Cheers

WWW

Now THAT I love! Thanks WWW I am so chuffed that you posted it. Bloody brilliant. Now how can we tell the Mirror? :p

They'll find out when the unsold copies are returned to distributor tonight, soaked with piss - someone is bound to pass the story up from the distributor (WH Smugder, John Menzies or whoever) to the Mirror's circulation department. That's when the sh*t will hit the fan.

By going here and complaining to the press complaints commission.

Morgan is scum :mad:

On the news today that the MoD has 'categorically' stated the Mirror pictures are fake and has proof that they were taken in Preston.

I hope the guys who staged these photo's for their own short term financial gain (I assume) receive the same level of sympathy everyone overseas can now expect because of them.

As for Piers Morgan, he has proved he does not have the right credentials to be a newspaper Editor. If he were half the man as those he is so ready to falsely accuse he'd resign. Not holding my breath though.

No, I wouldn't hold my breath either.

Morgan has already said that:

"there was no incontrovertible evidence that the pictures were not what they purported to be"

and

"We have listened to what (Armed Forces minister) Mr Ingram has said today, but he has still not produced incontrovertible evidence that the pictures are faked."

He also said "that the photographs were "just one piece of evidence about one incident" and "There is, of course, a much bigger issue here that we make no apology for highlighting - which is that the pictures accurately illustrated the reality about the appalling conduct of some British troops."

So the slimy b:mad:d will continue to twist and turn like a twisty turny thing. He should go, and the rag that he edits should be shut down.

Well - I have just returned from the pub. And I wish now to apologise to any member of staff at the local Texco garage that may be affected. But. I managed to take my own copy of todays Mirror with me - - place it in the nominated slot - - and promptly relieve myself.

I intend to do the same tomorrow - I have the entire day off and have planned a cycle ride with Mrs Welshman - and I ask you to join me nationwide.

It won't take too many to make the news...

Cheers

WWW

This suggests that you BUY this rag - surely defeating the object??

However, I wish you well in your micturatory expedition with Mrs Welshman (though the mind boggles at the thought of... :eek: )

Nice to see on the news this morning that Mirror Group shareholders are pressing for Morgan's resignation now. :ok:

What are people defending?
 

It would seem a lot of people who let us know how disgusted they are with the Mirror and will not pick it up again, still manage to comment on what is inside it.
Strange; either they are passing on 3rd party views, or reading it themselves, but how can that be?

Also strange that of all the 13 reasons that experts told us why the photos were faked, only one has been mentioned by anyone in authority. ie the truck.

So what happened to the 'proof' that squaddies didn't tie laces diagonally, didn't wear floppy hats, they had clean weapons/hands/shirts, didn't use sandbags as hoods etc etc?
(all examples of which can be seen on sky/bbc/itv in colour and moving)

As some of us pointed out, the many reasons didn't stand up.

Big Questions;
did the abuse go on?
where are wmdS?

Is that the same point I patiently tried to point out to you a few pages ago and you "debunked" by telling me 14 Sigs have them.

Your credibility here is a bit low so why not just let people think you are a cnut and stay quiet rather than prove it by carrying on with your uninformed bullsh1t.

Freedom of speech is simply wasted on some people.:rolleyes:

Dear all,

Did anyone catch Question Time on BBC1 last night?

I caught 5 mins of it. Now I am no fan of Alex Salmond, however something he said immediately struck a chord with me. To paraphrase he stated that it would be a travesty if the only resignations to occur over the Iraq conflict, were the two top men at the BBC and the editor of the Daily Mail. He went on to say that Bush, Rumsfeld, Blair and Hoon should crawl on their knees to Kofi Annan to ask for his assistance and that of the Arab Nations.

This was then followed by almost the entire audience clapping and cheering in agreement. Now I am sure that the audience for Question Time is carefully selected to ensure lively debate and support for all the main protagonists. So to see such widespread support for Mr Salmond’s stance was rather surprising.

Cheers

BHR

Earlier, as you pointed out, you said;
I then showed you a picture of a 14 Sigs Bedford in theatre and even gave you a link to the 14 Sigs site myself.

The point is you said they weren't in theatre, they were/are.

The point in relation to the photos and Government statements is that Bedfords have not been in Iraq, which I have never disputed.

So, who's the cnut then?

Problem with some people is they they just get too excited and then confusion sets in.
Maybe, but I have it, you defend it for me, for that I thank you.

Now go and tie your laces in the correct manner, get that floppy hat off and clean your SA80 so it is spotless!! (but don't get your hands too dirty!)

Sorry mate I’m not defending your right to it anymore, no longer serve as one of Her Majesty’s finest. Now an over paid and underworked telecoms consultant.

But you are still backpeddling like mad. My original point, clearly put in several posts a few days ago was that the inconsistancies mean you ask pertinant questions. I was right. You on the other hand were willing to accept the Mirrors view at essentially face value.

Try re-reading a few of my earlier posts.

You really are a bit dim and changing tack whenever you run up a blind alley is hardly the mark of intelligent debate.

Well I’m off on holiday for a fortnight but I will really miss the insightful informed posts and slashing whit of SS. NOT.

Tooodle pip.

P.S. I notice even on the other means you are about as popular as a turd at the dinner table. Hint, not everyone else is wrong.

Edited to add that I never said they were not in theatre I said they were not in theatre with the QLR. I did point that out several times for you. When you going to learn to read what people say not what you thought they said that suits your unsupportable argument.

Vortex,
I really suggest that you read my earlier posts. You have this completely wrong. As for accepting the Mirrors view, r e a d m y p o s t s !

Didn't realise this was a popularity contest. Of course not all my views will be agreeable to everyone, that is what discussion is about.

Have a nice holiday,
:)
SS

Last one :)

No I'm not the piccies are fake. The ather 12 points don't need following up, one is good enough.:ok:

Shall enjoy my holiday thanks. Sadly can't find me floppy hat;)

Sid,

Forgive me, but one point to factor in might be that the most clear-cut and effective assault on the Mirror's protestations would be to demonstrate that the pictures were taken somewhere other than Iraq.

If taken in (say) Preston, the case that the photos displayed abuse of an Iraqi prisoner becomes, shall we say, a little tenuous?

The other inconsistencies are neither here nor there once that key fact is established.

Pictures not taken in Iraq, ergo, they're fakes. No further elaboration or dissection required.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I think it is worth considering that possibility.

Sorry, I edited at the same time vortex posted.
I said he was wrong.

However,

On page 4, of this thread, in my 2nd post I said;

"The arguments to substantiate that they are fakes don't stand up, IMHO.

I reckon they are trophy photographs, set up for a good story in the NAAFI back home, and it's all gone horribly wrong."

If you were to have read the post, that doesn't say that I think they are true now does it?

My point also is that experts said they were fake for 13 reasons. I disagreed and explained why.
Now, it seems only 1 of those reasons stands up.

What is so hard to understand?

Point taken Archimedes
Ok they are fake, I said it from the start.

But if an expert can only get 1 out of 13, can he still be called an expert?

Morgan's Resignation
 

I doubt we will get a resignation, or even an apology, from Morgan; he is reported to have said yesterday: "The only hope of me resigning is NO HOPE and BOB HOPE". What a wit, hilarious!

Alas, as regards tabloid newspapers, ours are one of the worst facets of British life and my cynicism as to their truthfulness has meant that I have not done more than glance at one for years; when I heard the story about the pictures my first thought was 'I've heard the Mirror is anti-war, but this is really pushing it'.

My other reason for giving up tabloids is that the ink smudges when you wipe your a~~e with one; but the Guardian, now there's quality.

It may not be up to Morgan.

Some of Trinity Mirror's large shareholders (I presume this means they hold large numbers of shares, rather than need to adopt a new dieting regime) are muttering darkly about Morgan becoming a liability to the paper.

If WWW's efforts start a mass 'Micturate on the Mirror' campaign (gleefully covered by the Sun, no doubt), leading to even more adverse publicity, the shareholders, not Morgan, will decide.

I gather that Soldier A is to appear on the TV tonight to say that the Mirror is telling the truth, and that the pictures are completely bona fide. If his performance is less than 110% credible, I wouldn't mind betting that the Mirror will have a new editor by 2005.

My understanding is that Soldier C is the one to be interviewed on TV tonight. Soldier C has nothing to do with these photos and so will be able to say nothing new as to their validity. All he can discuss with any possible authority is what he claims to have witnessed himself.

So, in reality, in relation to the pictures published by that scum sucking sack of s#!t, Ponce 2@-face Morgan, in his extreemly poor excuse for a newspaper, Soldier C has nothing to add to this debate about whether the photographs themselves are real or not.

MadMark!!! :mad:

MM - typical. Can't even rely on the Times to get things right these days!

Local or 'Z'? :D

I was hoping no-one would ask that! :)

Quote:

'that scum sucking sack of s#!t, Ponce 2@-face Morgan, in his extreemly poor excuse for a newspaper'

MM

I cannot help but detect a lack of empathy on your part for the esteemed editor of the Mirror? I'm sure he is good to his old mum, if indeed he knows who she is.

Archimedes

Cheering news, but whether it be Local or Zulu, I do hope we do not have to wait until five past eight this pm!

Snippet gleaned from JB....
Stephen Fry was invited to give a word for which an meaning other than the original was appropriate......
"Countryside........the killing of Piers Morgan"

I had to say it out loud a couple of times before getting it :ok:

I heard him say that and I laughed so loud I swore I'd lend him a kidney if he ever needed one.

Having not been to the pub this time I merely extracted all copies of the Mirror from the stand, and placed them in the bin across the road.

Cheers

WWW

Piers Morgan has resigned:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3716151.stm

Excellent news! :ok: Just close the rag down and that's job done!

I think the most telling part of the statement though was:So perhaps more of a push than a jump. But the net effect is the same.

Now....will others who supported 'Der Spiegel' and doubted that the photos were fakes also be falling on their swords? :hmm: :E

Edited to remove typos.

Fantastic!!

Now folks make sure you never buy a copy of that scumbag paper again. It should be banned from the anti-room in the mess.

P Morgan sacked
 

Fabulous news! It's a real pity that the fake aspect won't be nearly as good a headline in Basrah et al. as the original lie and the damage has already been done.

Perhaps we could take Mr Morgan on a fact-finding trip to show him what he's been talking about though! :E

Well, Archimedes - I hope timing is not too critical a function in your job :D :D

Thankfully, no.

I confess, I thought that the Mirror group would weasel its way out by telling Morgan he had to go, but giving him the opportunity to 'move on to explore new exciting opportunities' and thanking the staff at the M****r for their support, etc, etc.

When I posted my previous, I first wrote 'by the end of the day' decided this was stupid, changed 'day' to month', but decided that this was wildly optimistic, so changed it. Fortunately, the Mirror Group bosses take a somewhat more robust view about honesty and credibility than Morgan. No matter that he'll probably wind up in some other well-paid job in a very short space of time, no matter how well it's dressed up, he's been sacked in disgrace. Which is jolly good.