I read a very interesting letter in the Torygraph the other week, written by a Muslim from Pakistan, which basically asked why the Islamic world refused to acknowledge that the majority of their problems were of their own making and asked other questions like what major contributions has the Islamic world made to the scientific world in the last 2000 years.
Having served in Iraq during the conflict the thing that struck me most was the smouldering resentment behind the polite greetings - it was a case of "Thanks for coming but don't outstay your welcome" - we have obviously outstayed our welcome and should leave them to stew in their own juices.

Where their is light, their is hope

A woman was walking along the beach when she stumbled upon a Genie's lamp.

She picked it up and rubbed it, and lo-and-behold a Genie appeared. The
amazed woman asked if she got three wishes.

The Genie said, "Nope ... due to inflation, constant downsizing, low wages in third-world countries, and fierce global competition, I can only grant you one wish. So...what'll it be?"

The woman didn't hesitate. She said, "I want peace in the Middle East.
See this map? I want these countries to stop fighting with each other."

The Genie looked at the map and exclaimed, "Gadzooks, lady! These countries have been at war for thousands of years. I'm good but not THAT good! I don't think it can be done. Make another wish."

The woman thought for a minute and said, "Well, I've never been able to find the right man. You know, one that's considerate and fun, likes to cook and helps with the house cleaning, is good in bed and gets along with my family, doesn't watch sports all the time, and is faithful.
That's what I wish for... a good mate."



The Genie let out a long sigh and said, "Let me see that f****n' map!"

Sitting comfortably in my armchair watching events on CNN and BBC World, I wonder if we are now beginning to see the reason why Saddam Hussein was as he was.

Take some time to reflect on the fact that he led a military coup to overthrow a half mad military dictator and that he did it with the help of western countries.

As to the rabid anti-islamic element posting here, I must say that there are plenty of peaceful and, in their own way, more or less democratic islamic nations around the world. There are even one or two islamic absolute monarchies that are examples of good governance too. As a matter of fact, the overwhelming majority of muslims do not live in the middle east, nor are they 'oil rich'. For example, there are more muslims in China than there are in Iraq; although they are not self-governing and are oppressed by the state, they are in general as peaceable and likeable a bunch of folks as one could wish to meet.

Beware of generalising solely on the basis of media reports or experience on the ground only in Iraq and Afghanistan - Bush & Blair took a wrong turning through listening to just one side of a complex story.

Perhaps the bunches of thugs carrying out these hi-jackings should reflect upon the Beirut experience....

British and other folk were being hi-jacked for months on end and suffering whilst politicos blundered slowly about wringing their hands, not many Russians were taken hostage. It seems that one was taken hostage, but the good old KGB didn't suffer fools gladly or worry too much about political correctness. So they grabbed one of the ringleaders, then sent his testicles back in a box with a note saying "Release our citizen and don't do it again - or you'll be next!".

He was swiftly released........

In yesterdays Times it was stated that - stripping out oil - the Muslim countries contribution to world GDP was less than that of the Nokia phone company.

Something that got my eyebrows waggling. I think it may be distinctly unlucky to strike oil in the long run.

I thought the big picture is that Sept11th and Al Quaeda eminate from Saudi - so Saudi has gotta fall. That can't happen until there is a replacement in the region for the Saudi oil supply. That replacement is Iraq and its nearly ready what with production way up on pre-war levels at this time.

So now we wait until November for Mr Bush to win the election and then Saudi Arabia gets the good news in the form of a US enforced embargo. Within a matter of weeks the edifice of Saudi Royal family crumbles into total civil revolt. In steps Uncle Sam to restore order and in time another Western style democracy.

When Bush finally retires Saudi and Iraq have been made to be democracies and Iran went that way anyway.

Anyone agree that this is the plan?

Cheers


WWW

Some very well made comments on here, perhaps more insightful than the generalisations repeated daily by the broadsheets.

SASless: any chance you have a link to that UN study? I think it would be an interesting read but can't find anything on the web.

Cheers.

Just remember that just as all us Europeans are far from alike, so Arabs vary. Ali Barber said it: the people of Oman are warm, friendly and welcoming and their country has made great strides. They may not be a democracy as we understand it, but then democracy does not suit everyone. Perhaps our US cousins should remember that. If the outside world judged the UK by the barabaric events of Northern Ireland a few years ago, they could easily draw conclusions similar to those which started this thread.

My personal view on living in the ME is that there is not enough money printed to take me to Saudi Arabia. I cannot understand anyone working there for a regime as unpleasant as that. However, there are other states within the region where life can be very pleasant; each to his own.

For Mr Pockets...

More books translated into Spanish in a year than into Arabic in a thousand…
Here’s the report
http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/ahdr2/...3_bios.qxd.pdf

and here’s an article
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04102/299292.stm

There’s more on the web, I found a good Guardian article before but can’t now. Good luck.

I know it's from a tabloid, but the pics are quite clear.
This kind of behaviour would only worsen the situation, and when you abuse a prisoner for no reason at all, then you are no better then the terror you are trying to fight.....

Beating up and pissing on prisoners

Who is allegedly in charge of these vicious little yobs?

Once the SIB (and good luck to them!) have rounded these ba$tards up and they've been jailed for a very long time, the SNCOs should be reduced to the ranks and imprisoned along with these cowardly bullies.

The 'officers' in charge should be handed the Mess Webley and a single round each.

It would be reassuring to think this was an 'isolated incident', but, sadly, I suspect there is more of this sort of thing to come.

Why????????????
 

Disgusting...absolutely disgusting....

But step back and think..Why take photos of it? Incriminating at the least..who developed them? Who's turned them over to the press? Why? Hopefully to stop it.

Strange though, that they should appear less than 24 hrs after the imagery of the Yanks doing it..setup perhaps????..(conspiracy theory now runs amock). Perhaps the Ham Shanks have had them appear to take the 'limelight' off their misdeeds.

If they are bona, then let's hope that SIB do a better job than they normally do and get the guys involved, then nail them up by their nether regions to the front gates of Whitehall.

I think that I may have to resort to the pencils and boxershort trick if they ask me to go to the 'Sandpit' in the near future..I wouldn't want to face a large group of Iraqis right now.

My thoughts turned immediately to the atrocities that occurred in the the last war, and to what Saddam and his vicious thugs, he called his sons, did to the Iraqis, things our guys and the yanks discovered in their travels up from the Gulf to wherever. All the stories were of degradation, torture and the most vile of acts against another, which filled one with disgust and revulsion!

Now, **** me, we are doing it! What does that make us (the coalition)? I can't believe that we were capable of it but now the truth is there for all to see and these despicable excuses for soldiers must be kicked out of the forces as fast as due process will allow. Tomorrow would not be soon enough.

I am ashamed that our forces did this. I hope they get the worst possible sentence in the worst possible place - where the staff will break them.

General Jackson said today that he would act swiftly to bring these lowlife to justice. I think, and hope, that he will.

In God's name what possessed them?

I've spent about four years in Iraq, pre and post GW II as a civvy. I've previously served in uniform so I think I can get a reasonable take on what's happening from both sides.

Firstly, this is the first reasonable thread I've read concerning this subject, unlike R&N, here there at least seems to be an effort to understand the issue rather than flaming it.

This is my experience:

The Iraqi people in the main are quite erudite and by regional standards well educated. In fact, prior to GW I, their education system was probably better in terms of quality and access than many "developed" counties. Albeit, certain subjects were slanted to suit the regime.

They are also deeply religious. In my opinion, Islam is a very difficult religion to understand clearly when you come from a Christian background. It may appear similar, but the nuances are complex. Seemingly minor issues (dog in a house?) can have major implications.

Muslims defer to God (Allah) as the ultimate authority. As a previous poster mentioned, the emphasis on individual moral authority is very different to Christianity. The Quran contains guidelines on many issues other than religion, for example, it contains guidelines for business transactions (interest is not to be charged on a loan). As with most religions, its the interpretation that divides the fundamentalists from the moderates. Unfortunately, the fundamentalists get the TV airtime and being branded "terrorists" coupled with a often condecending attitude because of their simple lifestyle, leads to an unfair generalisation.

Due to the above, I personally don't think western style democracy will lead to a stable environment in Iraq, or any other ME country. Dictator or Monarchy - take your pick. I haven't even gone into the aspects of tribalism that also supports this view.

Moving on, I agree with the previous poster (WWW?) that oil alone is not the motivation behind GW II, the Saudi theory is interesting. My opinion is that it was a personal quest on the part of GWB. I know that is sounds too simplistic to be true but where is the evidence to the contrary? TB got on board to try and exert some influence then got sucked in past the point of no return.

It is important to seperate the political issue of invading Iraq and its motives from the troops on the ground. These guys are just doing their job. I had dealing with both the Brits and the Yanks (I'm neither BTW) while I was there. The Brits were consummate professionals, I've dealt with many military forces in many countries and have to say that they are peerless - bar none. The Yanks seemed to make decisions far higher up the CoC, which creates delays, but, not complaining about my experience - USMC seem a little more "switched on"

The recent pictures showing ill treatment of prisoners are saddening. Any professional soldier would be disgusted. I fear these incidents will play into the hands of the fundamentalists when it comes to swaying middle ground Iraqi opinion.

On a lighter note (slightly) I heard a story there a few years ago that there was a guy in Baghdad tending to the graves of British military war dead for years with no salary. Apparentley it was being paid into an offshore bank a/c and he couldn't access it - anyone got info on this one?

Sorry for the length of this post but you have to unload somewhere.

:ok:

mini:

top post and well explained. Nice to see that the Yanks have finally(?) admitted defeat in Fallujah..... the difference in approach between the US and Brits (and others) surely counts for something, if only a lower body-count.....
What sort of credibility does a President who only travelled outside the US after being elected have, exactly? Who is pulling his strings? I for one would not trust one D. Rumsf*ld esq. as far as I could throw him....one very, very dangerous puppy IMHO.

BTW: Can it be true that only 4% of US citizens have passports?

Is anybody else having difficulty understanding why the resistance to the coalition is so strong and yet they were apparently incapable of overthrowing Saddam?

Perhaps they liked him?

Or maybe he had a more effective way of ruling Iraq?

They sure don't seem to like the alternative that much.

The Daily Mirror pictures are fakes.

No slings on the weapons, errors in the theatre uniform, too well lit, too little movement.

The Spams may well have a case to answer but I think the Lancastrians will be exonerated. We are not the only ones capable of PsyOps...

Cheers

WWW

WWW

There's nothing wrong with the theatre uniform, unless you're talking about the green webbing straps - which we all had as desert webbing is bloody difficult to get gold of unless you come from certain units or are sleeping with a stacker! And the sling clips are on the left of the weapon which you can't see.

However, I must commend their unit SNCOs - if all their 4-tonners and weapons are as clean as that after x months in the desert, then they can come and teach my lads how to keep their kit that clean in the UK. And did they have a sun roof in the back to let so much light in? Or was that just because the journo that happened to be there at the time had set the lighting up for best effect???

Also, and call me a spotter if you like, but from what I heard / read they were beaten up and thrown from a moving truck. Two comments on this based on the pics:

1. For someone getting a rifle in the family jewels, this chap looks very relaxed and laid back. I know what I'd be doing in his situation - and that's doing my hedghog impression and getting my nuts as far inside my rib cage as possible!

2. Notice the chain in the corner or the wagon just behind the Iraqi? That locks the tail gate in place, but hangs down. It's hanging perfectly still -no movement in it at all. Bit odd for a truck that's supposed to be moving don't you think?

This whole thing stinks. If I'm right, and I hope I am (would even the Queen's Last Resort be this bad? ) the timing of this whole thing is questionable, and funny old thing it's the Daily Mirror yet again with another totally true exclusive about the war. If I'm wrong, then I agree with BEagle - pass the Mess revolver round!

As for the Yanks admitting defeat in Fallujah. No way. I was in Iraq with some of the USMC that are there currently and there's no way they'd give so easily. This is all political. The only way the insurgents will be smoked out in Fallujah is through overwhelming force. However this is becoming politically unacceptable to Bush et al. So the ideal solution - send in the Iraqis, but under the command of an ex-Saddam era General who probably knows a thing or two about use of force and has been hired to do the American's work for them so the US govt can't be seen to have too much blood on their hands.

You think it's bad now - give it a couple of weeks and watch the chaos really begin. Is that the sound of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse I hear approaching???

Edited after being a spotter and having another good look at the pics.

PS. With my last comment, I guess the 'powers that be' will take offence and edit.

You are damn right we did. You get no rights on here to show such stuff and make such comments. You get no rights to make further comment on this thread either. It's going well without your crass inputs.

PPP

Don't rush to conclusions.
 

The call "fake piccies" is one based purely on individual opinion.
The link Bill gives is a forum similar to this, so should be taken lightly.

As much as I think we would all like them to be fake, the arguments given for them to be, don't really seem to stand up if you have any knowledge of the real Army.

Just turn up at a unit on exercise after day 5 and you'll see what I mean!