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-   -   Iraq - is there ANY hope?!? (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/126151-iraq-there-any-hope.html)

Macchi 10th Apr 2004 09:44

Iraq - is there ANY hope?
 
Well, here goes... I expect a torrent of abuse in these "PC" times but I believe some fellow patrons of this forum will agree:

The majority of middle eastern people are fools beyond help..

Why raise this issue? I sit here, fuming with inarticulate rage at the latest round of news on Falluja / Sunni vs Shia / Insurgent attacks / Hostage taking / Civilian Murders/ ETC... ETC... and think "What's the point? Are these people the most worthless members of our global society today? Does any other geo-political area create as big a drain on world resources for such little gain???"
(And I think the pathological "US haters" should re-read that last question closely before launching their tirades).

I honestly think that most of the people of Iraq (and others of it's ilk - you can insert any undemocratic, women-hating, religiously oppresive middle eastern nation here) are the living personification of pointlessness. They appear to exist to do one thing and one thing only: hate the rest of the world for their problems. It's as almost as if they have taken the art of the "legalised criminal" (e.g. someone breaks into your house, cut's himself on broken glass and sues you) and turned it into a central cultural tenet. I just cannot accept that a nation that has been liberated from an unimaginable tyrant can rapidly resort to such barbarism and anti-coalition hatred. It defies logic - and I don't think it's limited to isolated pro-ba'athist areas or a few firebrand clerics.

It appears the general populace (Kurds exlcuded) are downright sh!tty that they have the chance to become a democratically run, un-oppressed nation!! I can imagine meeting a (very stereotypical) Iraqi and asking him/her what they dislike about the West: "Why, because you are infidel dogs of course... I curse your car driving women and spit on your non-AK47 wielding youth".

Someone tell me I'm wrong, please give me reason to believe that this place isn't deserving of being returned to the stone-age to match it's apparent intellectual level. All of this is making me think I may be on the verge of becoming a facist... Say it isn't so! :uhoh:

So what causes this immense feeling of hatred? Is it religious (Islam, or more correctly Fundamental Islamic beliefs)? Is it American foreign policy (that old chestnut - the "they started it" argument) or is some deep seated resentment of Western economic prosperity? Perhaps it's a complex fusion of all of the above? (The safe "Western broadsheet" editorial reasons that are being trotted out on a regular basis).

Well, as Kent Brockman would say: "Here's my 2 cents": as a firm believer in 'Occam's Razor' I suspect that the real reason for these "malcontents" is this: They're simply @rseholes.

But I risk sinking to their level unless I proffer more compelling explanations. The problem is, I've never visited the Middle East, never known an Iraqi and therefore comprise your classic 'armchair' expert. I want to be wrong, I need to be wrong. So I ask some of the more worldly wise PPruners whether my beliefs are unfounded? If not, why are they the way they are?:confused:

StopStart 10th Apr 2004 09:56

You're an "armchair" something certainly.....

tabmonkey01 10th Apr 2004 10:03

Might I suggest that you devote your 'armchair opinions' to more suitable programmes for your intellect...like...say.... Jerry or trishia or? Oh, and spare a thought for the boys and girls out there in danger trying to diffuse this difficult situation, whilst people like you just sit at home and criticise.

oh-oh 10th Apr 2004 12:19


tabmonkey01 Might I suggest that you devote your 'armchair opinions' to more suitable programmes for your intellect...like...say.... Jerry or trishia or? Oh, and spare a thought for the boys and girls out there in danger trying to diffuse this difficult situation, whilst people like you just sit at home and criticise.
I don't understand where you are coming from tabmonkey
:confused:

I didn't see any critisizing of our boys and girls, just a post to get some information that might help Macchi understand the people in the Middle East.
:confused:

Macchi 10th Apr 2004 22:31

"Oh-oh"... you are spot on, I'm glad someone read the message. I applaud our boys & girls and think they're doing an effing brilliant job considering the circumstances, and I firmly believe they need to be there.

Mr. Champagne thanks for your enlightened input. Tab monkey, I fail to see how this topic is worthy of "Jerry" as you so eloquently put it. Perhaps if we return to the big issues like whose aircraft is best? Or which mess provides the best "egg & banjos"? maybe then you would be happier.

If you don't like the issue, don't waste bandwith with meaningless drivel, simply don't reply and let the topic sink into obscurity.

My question still stands, who can give me an insight into the middle eastern mind & culture? Is it fuedal, tribal, patriarchal etc...?:confused:

I'm curious for professional reasons because I'm close to taking a job with a certain company (rhymes with sh!ttish hair-oh-face) teaching certain people how to defy Allah's gravity. Well, it would have to be for a WHOLE lot more than they offered, unless my opinion of this culture is wrong/unfounded (and yes I realise I am talking about two different countries here). Wahabism does seem to have parallels with the Iraq issues, though. I know that this forum is very RAF-centric therfore I figured many of it's patrons have had experience in the sand pit.

By the way, it appears big brother has subtly changed the title of the topic - fair call & sorry if it caused offence!!

NO! To your question and the suggested alternative. So don't push it!

PPP

Dave Ishall 10th Apr 2004 23:28

Macchi,

Are Iraqis "the living personification of pointlessness" ? The question, although itself pointless and somewhat ignorant, is no doubt being asked by plenty of people. One answer (for there are many) is that they are no more or less pointless than any of us who live in the Western 'civilised' world. They are simply different.

Saddam was, without question, a tyrant. His demise has probably benefited Iraq and the World. However, now that he has gone, who are we to dictate how the culture of a nation should develop? Iraq, like most of the Middle East, is based on a history of tribalism (and extreme violence, like every culture) and it is sheer arrogance to believe that we can or should try to change that by force. Why should their way of life be any less worthy than our McDonalds fed, High Street driven, soulless existence over here?

The drain on our global society is not, as you suggest, caused by the Middle East but perpetuated by the West's insatiable desire for its oil (see Gulf War I). It seems that sometimes our hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Don't get me wrong, I have served out there and my Wife is currently doing her bit too, and I am extremely proud of her and what we (the British armed forces) have done so far. Unfortunately we can't simply bang out and leave them to it, however we need to be extremely careful that we do not become sucked into a policy of bloody culture change that we cannot possibly see through. Treating the population of the Middle East as you suggest is one step closer to that policy.

Besides, the real trouble makers have always been the French......

Captain Sand Dune 11th Apr 2004 01:51

As a British ambassador to Saudi Arabia was once quoted as saying of the Saudi people - "they are both unlovely and unloved".
Same goes for Iraq I believe.
Democracy does not sit well with the M.E culture.

autosync 11th Apr 2004 02:59


The majority of middle eastern people are fools beyond help.


I don't really like admitting that I agree with this statement, because if I do, I cannot deny that I am a racist, (and every other thing that the hippies accuse me of being!!)

But after coming to my own conclusion I am afraid I do agree with it,
Islam has been force fed since birth and to question the religion would bring dire social and possibly life threatening consequences to anybody, be it family, friend, relative or neighbour.

The religion preaches superiority over other religions and if you have been told since birth that yours was superior to any other religion and that Allah will guide you successfully through war and the prophet Mohammad's (peace be on him :ugh: ) sword will crush any infidel invader.
Then see you see your nations army Decimated in 3 weeks by these infidels and your Arab neighbours did nothing to help your plight, and still they do not question anything to do with values or religion? To focused looking foward to Nirvana and all the Virgin's they will get in the next life!

We see on the news everyday some large group somewhere in the middle east, strutting their stuff and preaching anti western slogans but still drive around in western cars use western mobile phones TV’s etc, etc. Have you ever wondered what they have contributed to modern civilisation (talking in the last 300 years or so!) other then be fortunate enough to have built there sandcastles over massive oil fields, but the vast majority of the wealth is kept in the royal families!

We even see the so called intellectuals, (the best they have to offer) come on air from time to time and give us an insight on how bad there best is, I saw one the other night saying how great the sleighing, burning and hanging of the American contractors is and how it serves the Americans right, and how the Iraqi people are looking forward to seeing it happen again! Then on the BBC tonight a good long interview in a market in Baghdad with an Iraqi writer (who would have been slaughtered under the old leadership) giving out hell because Iraq was not the Oasis in the Desert that he claims was promised by the Americans even though it has only been 12 months!

I understand that the Arab mindset is going to be different, but it is just filled to breaking point with Hypocrisy that anything in the way of Progress is a long way off, despite its natural resources and all the lending hands!

Terrible shame that a portion of the Human race lets itself fall so far behind the rest and so many lives are being lost because of the mindset.

AllTrimDoubt 11th Apr 2004 07:40

Pi**es me off to see Brits/Yanks/ et al trying to bring some stability out there and being treated by the mob the way they are. So, sorry to say it, but let's return them to the dark ages where they appear determined to end up.

Remove it ALL. NO Western advice, technology or contact. And all those preaching anti-western hatred here to join them. And then let's see just how long before they come begging to develop and sell their oil to get $$$.

(And yes, I've been there, seen it, and done it in GW1).

Ali Barber 11th Apr 2004 11:41

I have lived in the Middle-East for just over 5 years, although at the other end of the Gulf from Iraq - in Oman.

Just over 30 years ago this place was not far off the stone ages. It was illegal to educate your children, there were no records so people did not even know how old they were or when their birthday was. There were no hospitals. The only road was 7km long and went from the palace to the airport. Today, there are universities, hospitals, roads, bureacracy (you can't get everything right) and the people are civilised and friendly. Islam is still the "state religion", but there are christian churches here as well. There is even an advisory parliament for which there are elections, and there are women elected as well. My point is, not all of the Gulf is like Iraq now.

You also have to consider what the Iraqis have been through under Saddam. They have only known fear and now there are some power struggles going on, that are being enforced by the same kind of thugs that supported Saddam. I read quite a revealing comment today by an Iraqi on one of the Web Logs. He said that those who are trying to take power now, assumed that democracy meant a dictatorship by the majority. It will take time to overcome the power of the warlords/clerics.

We started this so we're going to have to finish it, otherwise it will all have been for nothing - no WMD and no freedom for the Iraqis.

autosync 11th Apr 2004 11:59

And another thing, when any public figure ever speaks there mind in relation to the lack of leadership or fundamentalist problems in the Arab/ Islamic faith, and state the undeniable truth's.
They will be blasted in the media and some Islamic expert somewhere will come on and say that "You cannot say that" instead of taking it on board and addressing the issue!

Noah Zark. 12th Apr 2004 16:29

Isn't it awfully sad, seeing the very recent media pictures of the growing rebellion against the Allied forces in Iraq?
If it wasn't for these same forces being there, only just over a year ago the rioters would have been done away with for being out on the streets posing a threat (in case it got out of hand and turned against Hussein).
Also, in the pictures I have seen, most of the perpetrators of mayhem seem to be mainly youths and young men. Is this because they are the most fervent, or the most easily "fired up" and led on?

Flatus Veteranus 12th Apr 2004 17:58

[QUOTE]We started this, so we are going to have to end it[QUOTE]

All the scribes ( particularly the anti-war liberals) repeat this mantra and no one challenges them.

We went to war because Tony Blair believed the WMD threat served up to him by creeps in the upper reaches of the intelligence services. I also trusted Blair/JIC and supported the war on that basis. There was an imminent threat to the UK and its interests, so lets go sort it out. IMHO thats what the armed services are paid for - not to go around "changing" uncongenial régimes.

It has turned out that the JIC assessment was crap. (Not for the first time. It is a predominantly civil service organisation and attracts creeps like honey attracts bees). So having had a good look around and found no WMDs or any capacity to produce them, why could we not have declared "Endex" and bu**ered off home"?

I have lived in the ME long enough to know that Islam has no clear idea of property rights, and so makes capitalism almost impossible. THis probably accounts for the economic stagnation of the whole region. Lets face it - who in their right mind would lend money to an Arab (or a Turk) with the hope of seeing their money again plus interest? Also Islam is an authoritarian religion, does not recognise an individual "free will" (which lies at the root of Christian values) and is therefore inimical to democracy.

As for oil, the West ought to use the time that has been bought by the recent discoveries in the Caspian basin to develop a hydrogen-based economy.

DP Harvey 12th Apr 2004 23:27

So what's this got to do with flying?
 
Gents, we all might have a point of view about Iraq and the military occupation, but it is out of order to use PPRuNe as our soapbox.

We've all got opinions about many things and the WWW has many places for us to air them. So, forgive my interruption here, but if I might suggest....Lets keep PPRuNe as our own little corner of the web dedicated to talking about fast jets, foreign parts and bombing people we don't like....

spud 13th Apr 2004 07:42

Strangely enough, the first thing that came into my mind after reading 'bombing people we don't like' was Blair.

SASless 13th Apr 2004 14:26

Maachi is closer to the truth than we usually dare admit. The fundamentalists in the Middle East would have their people living in the Dark Ages. Any study of their beliefs and the direct conflict they pose in the 21st Century can only validate that situation.

To take issue with them, and consider them lacking, does not make one a Racist. To ignore their xenophobic hatred of things Western and Christian is to show poor judgement.

As much as is wrong with Western culture, there is much worse in the culture the Islamic Fundamentalists wish to force upon the world. Any religion that purports to endorse murder for the furtherance of that religion is evil.

I have lived amongst our Arab and Islamic brethren for years and have to agree with the view that they as a people are the cause of their own suffering.

The UN study that discribed the situation so accurately has been ignored by the world's media. Arab and Islamic scholars studied the Middle East and determined the oppressive and backwards view of the ruling classes (includes the Mullahs and Clerics) all base their power upon keeping the masses isolated from outside influences.

The lack of education for women, withholding of medical care for women, the lack of books translated "into" Arabic, lack of access to the internet, lack of industrial infrastructure, and the like all set the Islamic nations up for failure in the modern world.

One excuse for the young Saudi's being unhappy is the lack of jobs...but yet 65% of the workers in Saudi are foreigners....while the Saudi's report an unemployment figure of 25%. Now what Rocket Scientist cannot come up with an answer for that situation?

I for one, am sick and tired of hearing how it is the Western World's fault for all the problems. The Islamic Fundamentalists are merely Fascists in Jhrobes! When they put forth an honest effort to move into the modern world then I will begin to listen to their complaints but not until then.

autosync 13th Apr 2004 14:56

Excellent post SASless, couldn't agree with you more.
To say that this is irrelevant to Military aircrew is a big mistake, a lot of military folk may find themselves over there for many years to come, and although everybody should go over with an open mind, the islamic mindset should be addressed to prepare ones self, it is very "different" to the rest of the world, Russia and Asia included.

Would love to hear an Arabic view of what is being discussed here.

unowho 13th Apr 2004 15:20

ME
 
To understand a little of the problem of the ME you only have to see the date on their calender. It is about 600 years behind ours.

Maybe that is where we should leave them.

They (the Arabs) are still miffed about the Crusaders, and I don't mean the Sqn.

For those that know me, look totally PC!!

Vage Rot 14th Apr 2004 06:50

I too have spent a lot of time in the Middle East. The better educated ones are not a bad bunch, those with no education or little intelligence are easily led - just as in any poor nation. They are promised better homes/life etc if they support this or that group. The leaders of that group know how to manipulate the general population.

As was the case in our own country in the middle ages, religion is used to police the masses. The threat of some omnipitent policeman (God/Allah or whomever) is used to threaten the uneducated with punishment if they step out of line. That same god will protect them from any threat and therefore deserves their unquestioning support.

These people have noting else to 'hang their hat on' except for Allah and fighting the infidel. It will take years to change that (it took over 1000 years in our own country).

Whilst I didn't agree wholeheartedly with the reasons for going to war in the first place, if we pull out now then all has been for nothing. Some other dictator will assume power, there will be a big tribal, civil war and the whole region will be destabilised. The Kurds and the other 'friendly' factions will be abandoned (again) and we will skulk off to save a few quid on our defence budget.

PS, if we do pull out - I hope we never have the audacity to poke our ever weakening nosesinto some other nations business again!

Forgot to say - perhaps a dictatorial regime is best in places where the masses are uneducated? At least there is a modicum of civil order. The coalition needs to get tough and learn from the Iraqi methods until the people have chance to educate and civilise their masses. Huge investment will be needed from the 'West' as the population will always be discontent unless they see their standard of life improve.

Jackonicko 14th Apr 2004 10:26

Vage,

Congratulations on attempting a sensible, level headed and intelligent analysis, and one which avoids a xenophobic and racist lumping together of all Arabs as suicide-bombing, Western-hating nutters.

It's profoundly depressing to see intelligent people coming out with what their grandparents would have said about Germans (who were all, without exception, Jew-hating, arrogant, evil Nazi monsters intent on World domination). If we substitute the word negro or Jew where we've used Arab or Moslem, the degree of racism on this thread would be pretty stark.

There are some good, honest, honourable people in the Middle East (including ill-educated and relatively poor ones) who deserve our understanding and support.

Like these two:

[b]Wednesday, 28 August, 2002, 10:26 GMT 11:26 UK

Queen honours Afghan guards

Proud recipients: Sayed Afzal and Zahoor Shah in Kabul

Two Afghans who have guarded the British Embassy in Kabul through decades of conflict have been awarded honorary MBEs for their loyal service.

Zahoor Shah, 57, and Sayed Afzal, 59, have for much of the time been the only ones at the British outpost, dodging bombs and rockets from the onslaught of Soviet, Mujaheddin and Taleban fighters.

At a special ceremony on Tuesday, the guards, who between them have clocked up more than 70 years of service, were given medals making them honorary Members of the British Empire.

They were then invited by British ambassador Ron Nash to a traditional cup of English tea on the embassy lawn.

To the sound of a lone bagpiper in the background, Mr Nash told the two guards: "We are here to pay tribute to you. You have worked faithfully to protect our embassy.

"There has been physical danger and war around you...and you have taken care of our possessions for many years when there was no British ambassador and no British officials."

The loyal guards even refused entry to British troops who turned up in Kabul late last year after the defeat of the Taleban.

It fell to the British High Commission in neighbouring Pakistan to explain to the pair that the new arrivals should be let in.

Foreign and Commonwealth Office spokesperson Jeff Wilson recalls meeting the pair on his visit to Kabul last November, saying they did "a fabulous job" taking care of visitors and officials.

Mr Wilson told BBC News Online that only a handful of honours are handed out each year to local employees at overseas missions for their long and dedicated service.

Mr Shah has worked at the embassy for 30 years and holds the position of head of household.

The housekeeper, whose three sons now work at the embassy, has served though dangerous times.

He recalled how one person was killed on the embassy premises and several injured when a rocket fell in the grounds during the violent civil war of the early 1990s.

Mr Shah said: "The British have been good to me. I have served them very faithfully and will continue to do so."

Mr Afzal, who works as gatekeeper, has served the Foreign Office uninterrupted for 40 years, keeping out fighters of successive conflicts.

"For 13 years the embassy was closed altogether, but I did not allow anyone to pass," he said.

"Once the Taleban asked us to let them in and asked what was there. I told them just a few old tables and chairs and they went away."

The pair were paid a salary and given money towards the upkeep of the site even during the times the embassy was closed.

Many of the treasures housed at the embassy have remained intact thanks to the guards' diligent service, including a fine gilded bone china tea set used to serve the tea at Tuesday's ceremony.

Like his colleague, Mr Afzal said he was honoured to be given a prize by Queen Elizabeth.

"I will work here until I am fired. When someone at the embassy says I must stop, then I will stop." [/i]

There was a more recent (very similar story) about the sole local employee who stayed on and safeguarded the British Embassy in Iraq, this time without pay, who carefully packed and buried the most valuable stuff, and kept the lawns tended....

The present situation in Iraq is appalling, of course, and no-one could have anything but contempt for the scum who are rioting and kidnapping Westerners. But it's hard not to conclude that poor and inconsistent policy by the Americans, exacerbated by heavy-handedness, arrogance and ignorance by US troops on the ground hasn't at least been a contributory factor in turning all sides against the occupation.


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