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What would you cut?
Put yourself in the position, you are in charge; you have been told to make some savings, what would you do? Which Sqns would you get rid of? What equipment would you draw down? What posts would you get rid of? Do we really need all the senior officers? Can we amalgamate some sqns and still keep the same capability? It's for you to decide!!!
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Do one or two things well. Let our partners do what they can do.
So, that leaves the Germans to operate the Typhoon. As they don't fly outside German there will be no need for tankers so we can cancel our tanker buy too. Let the Italians use the Tornados, they are nearer the action. They might need tankers but then that would allow them to get even nearer so maybe tankers arent need there either. Let the French do the AWAC bit. We might be able to sell our E3. Keep the cabs and trucks. Very handy for moving the brown jobs around. Oh and Nimrod. Seriously, do we need three different bombers? |
Invest in lots of UAVs. ;)
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You would go a long way to saving huge sums of money if you worked on the simple plan of each service doing what it does best:ok:
Navy sails boats Army drives tanks and shoots guns Airforce fly all the aircraft Us crabs gave up driving boats and tanks years ago as we were crap at it and it's about time you blue and brown jobs realised your shortcomings and handed all your toys back to their rightful owners so they can be utilised correctly :E Now imagine how much dosh that would save:ok: all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced |
What would I bin?
SSBNs. Who exactly are they deterring? How exactly do they credibly deter assymetric threats? Is there any other sort of threat, now? Carriers. Even the most optimistic cost them at £5Bn. That would be 200 Gripens or F-16s. JSF. Without carriers we could have a cheaper, more effective, less bloated FJ to replace OS/Recce Harriers and Jaguars, which could fulfil most of the FOA requirement and do some limited AD. Heavy armour. |
As BA have about the same amount of aircraft and personnel as the RAF, operating from dispersed locations across the Globe with just ONE SHQ, why don't we try it?
Oh, go on, please! |
Support to Falklands could be significantly reduced.
Red Arrows. In a shrinking Service, why would we need such massive recruiting power? 32 Sqn? Close Scampton (please close Scampton ... before I have to go there!). Do I detect a plan to disestablish the RAF Regt in a previous post (each do what they are good at?). Why do we have 2 Commands? Get rid of IIP, NVQ and EO initiatives that have increased workloads without significantly improving capability, and must be costing a fortune to implement. Close all Handbrake Houses! Disestablish RAF Plods. |
SirTopp,
Rant Mode Sel - 'XMT' Absolutely 110% agree about binning IIP, NVQ and EO. What an utter utter utter load of wasted energy and time (IMHO). Also, I know a sensible degree of H&S is needed, but the things I have seen: getting back from a long and sporadically interesting mission in the Gulf to be refused entry to the Sqn building because the wires from the phones to the wall sockets were assessed as 'a trip hazard'!!!! A quick reality check resolved that one - but it did actually really happen - gobsmacking. Who are these people who actually drive this IIP, NVQ EO stuff? I have never met one - or perhaps I have but they have been too ashamed to admit it. Rant Mode Sel - 'Stby' MT |
Cut Senior Officers!!
Back in the days when the RAF was 90,000 strong I read an articule by some guy about the number of senior officers it had. He had done his research, and looked up the RAF lists for 1946 (you can probably still find one in a large decent public library) and 198? (sorry, can't remember). In 1946, just after the end of WWII, the RAF had a strength of approx 1,000,000!! Anyway this chap produced a table of RAF senior officers, with columns for 1 star, 2 star, 3 star etc, comparing the numbers in 1946 with those in 198?. Over that period, with a decrease in strength from 1,000,000 to 90,000 the number of senior officers had only decreased by about 20%!! It might be interesting to do a similar comparison today. Going further down the scale in rank, I believe we have enough Sqn Ldr engineers to allocate one to every aircraft engine in the RAF!! No doubt there are other examples, and the RAF is not alone, I believe a frequent quote is that the Navy has more Admirals (I am not having a pop at the Navy, and I do realise the term 'Admiral' covers several ranks!!) than ships!! Again, several years ago I remember reading that the Israeli Air Force has 700 combat (and I mean COMBAT) aircraft, and was run by a 2 star!! My point is we are rank top heavy, but when anybody talks about changing the system, it is left to the senior officers to make the decisions!! I am sure they are going to make themselves redundant - NOT!! Almost as bad as getting the politicians to police/regulate themselves!! |
You haven't read Cecil's book yet then Biggus?
Parkinson's " The Law", although meant to be humourous, is nonetheless a revelation of truth. His mathematical formula for bureaucratic growth, initially calculated from comparison of Nelson's navy with the navy of the fifties, has demonstrated remarkable accuracy in predictions for all organizations at all times. He should have won the Nobel prize for his work. |
Why not start with the REMFs and other hangers on?
I'd begin with Shrivenham, £94m for a big building to house a few computers, a couple of libraries and a few hundred individuals completing courses they have no interest in but feel they need to do if they want a career........... Rant over.:mad: |
Kinloss. Bye! Put the ac at Waddo and if needed to deploy north to cover the GIUK gap or other choice tasks, deploy them to Lossie.
Church Fenton, Topcliffe. Bye! Colt (it pains me deeply to say it) Bye. Move the Jags somewhere for the last couple of years of its life. I have heard Leeming mentioned quite seriously! Wittering? Surely there's room at Cottesmore?? MPA needs to be downsized. SSBNs definately. Even if we do get hit by a terrorist nuke or bio/chem attack, who are we going to strike back at? Aircrew (senior) who are never going to get anywhere near a cockpit again stopped flying pay. Not wishing to start this argument again but it just seems to make common sense (ducks to receive barrage). IIP, EO, NVQ, H&S etc! Bleeting whingers who stub their toe on their desk and demand compensation for their pain, suffering, mental anguish and piles. Huge Eng & Logs command structure. Wyton, Abbeywood etc etc. Uhhh, what's wrong with having it all in one place guys? I think that's about it for now!:ok: |
Cuts
Get rid of 1 2 and 3 Groups and all their staff and merge their roles into HQSTC.
Get the army to stop moving around the world with their own precious collection of tanks and vehicles and introduce the concept of handing over the inventories to the Brigade (or whatever) that is replacing them. This would save a fortune on hiring container ships to ferry the 3rd Foot and Mouths personal land rovers to Iraq and back. Cancel the carrier programmes. Why on earth do we need 2 enormous carriers when we have already conceded that we won't go to war without the Americans again. Get rid of the Apaches (chosen with all the logic of a small boy in a toy shop picking the most expensive toy). Stop wasting money on new uniforms (primarily for ORs) and spend the money on improving accommodation. Stop producing career managements leaflets, air power CDs, equal opportunity flyers, mission statement boards and spend the money on air power instead. Merge the RAF Police and RAF Regiment into one Force Protection unit Merge the flt ops branch with....well, anything really. Erm Pauses for breath |
Cutting NVQs out would save......not very much as the costs of delivery etc are met by drawing down funds from the Government's education department which is separte and totally different from the MoD's budget. Not doing NVQs would mean this money cannot be gained.
If anything cutting out NVQs would mean that station budgets would have to increase because the wages of the NVQ staff are met from Innsworth via this funding. What do they achieve - the chance for the lowly paid airman to jump a year in his increments. BTW if you are an NVQ assessor in the work place - you can now be paid around £45 per unit you sign off. |
All three services could operate under one large Logistical roof in terms of kit storage and supply. That would save millions and why not co-locate the lot too?
Axe the AAC and give that capability to the RAF. RAF Police? What's the point? "you....get yor' beret on son" Cheers munter!! RAF REGT. Bye, adios and close the door behind you. Just get an army unit (Dads) to defend the airfields in time of war. Admin staff..see ya .... contract it all out civi on lower wages. MTMF bye....civi.. Jags..se ya...Nimrod all variants bye....stick the MAR. role equip. on the C130. Don't see many Nimrods doing the fisheries patrol down south do we?? Tornado F3... bye now the sooner the better. Stop looking for a new job with the ALARM thing. Face it you are not needed. Dog fights are for idiots who missed with their missiles!! VC10 / Tristar.. see ya... Brasnon can do your job. Merlin....I mean and the point of that Helo is????? See ya more CH47's bought with the cash from their sale. Relocate the RAF to ten major stations or even co-locate with other service units.. You'd save millions...... Rant over!!h |
Relocate the RAF to ten major stations or even co-locate with other service units.. You'd save millions...... |
Grim,
Disposal of RAF Plod is particularly attractive. I wonder if a certain (acting) Corporal has given up looking for me under the 30 year rule ? Nice one. :ok: E5 |
Perhaps we might as well put the "Mob" out of its collective misery. Please someone tell us where and when will be the final, terminal pi$$-up to end all pi$$-ups. Then we might stagger along to St Clem's and pray for the future of the nation - and laugh our cox off at the subsequent antics of the grunts and fisheads. ;)
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It isn't the other Sqn/Stn/Type/Role/Branch/Service that should be getting our attention here. Let's look at the thousands and thousands of Civil Servants that are paid for by the defence budget. The procurement lot would be a good start- billions spent out of the defence budget and just one debacle after another. But I'm sure Sir Humphrey will out manoeuvre General Melchett where the battle really counts - in Whitehall.
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Deliverance....
F3 was a little too far I do admit.......100Sqn do a good job of shooting us down with gun kills all the time!!!! They could replace them I'm sure??!! I must concur with Brain Potter. The Civil service must surely be axed. Biggest waste of money this side of William Hill's. Just look at the cost of Abbeywood etc. They even go on courses for PC/Racial etc crap that they then festoon upon us!! They'd all make good Fig.11 targets for the live shootin' range!! |
Whowhenwhy
You clearly have no comprehension of the MPA role since submarines sodded off. SWOs. Getting excited because we carry rucksacks over our left shoulders instead of our right. Stn Cdrs because if we failed our fitness tests then aircraft would fall out of the sky, contrary to your performance figures. Rocks. Enough said |
Gents and Ladies, lets cut the dead wood out, reduce the Star ranks and the rest of the Officer core re ranked to correct levels, whilst binning all those staff jobs that have been created throughout the years.
i.e. Flights commanded by FL Sqns by SL Bases by WC Groups by GP CPT and like the IsAF a 2 star boss Re rank all other aircrew as SNCO's after all buckets of instant sunshine have been gone for years. Then if the bloke wants a comission send him to Cranwell and let him do the SOO jobs. Whilst those that want to stay flying stay in the cockpit/back end. Same could be said for all those other jobs with Sengo as only ENG O on Sqn and V Experienced SNCO's doing the JENGO's job. A FL in hand brake house with the WO running it properly. Add FL SATCO and in Area as the Supervisor and if you want a comission then back to cranwell you go. Stop all this direct comission and let people be selected from the ranks after showing they have what is needed to make it as a leader of men. You could go through the whole of the RAF on this basis and let people who want to do the job would i think stay in. Whilst getting rid of all the PC BOlocks such as IIP, 6000's, OJARS and the rest. Savings on air rank alone would let us fund Typhoon, especially if they set a single pension rate such as exists at the rankers level. Then we start on the Civies, get some top lawyers in to write the contacts not some SL/WC on a 2 year tour. Load them with penality clauses and BWOS will be having to pay us to take the aircraft/systems off their hands. Or support us for free for years. Give the Sqns ac and weapons that work, and that includes the Rocks, cause i'm damn sure that i sleep better with those lads walking the wire than the plods and mod plods doing it. Then start on the civil servants, get them to find 3 servicemen who say that that post is needed and they can keep the job. Otherwise out they go. As for the RN and the Army deal with them in a like manner,but when it comes to getting new weapons, (across the board) ask the poor Idiot who has to fight with it, what he/she wants to replace, improve or swap it for. |
One, very obvious, answer. Close all of the RAF 'sleepy hollows' and make the land-lubbing bunties work at stations with dirty, noisy aircraft. That might make them realise why they are in the RAF - to provide a service and not to prevent us from operating by saving 2p here and there.
Whowhenwhy - Close kinloss?? The airfield with one of the best weather factors in the UK - better than Lossie! Close Waddo, too much fog and too often to be any use for combat aircraft. That's why we station airliners there!!:p :D |
To be honest reading through this has become quite a suprise. I know this thread was meant to determine what is felt to be least important and much of a wate to the RAF, but some of you sound seem gunho about axing capabilities.
I've read about getting rid of the SWO (you're in the military so deal with it!!!) getting rid of fitness tests(again, you're in the military so deal with it!!!) Getting shot of Regt (you clearly have no clue what they do, especially if you reckon they patrol a fence, and infact they want to increase its size. And no, it wouldn't work merging with the RAF police, they do a completely different job. Honestly, how would many of you feel if the RAF was reduced to 10 stations!!! It may aswell go back to the RFC and RNAS at this rate!!! I certainly agree with getting rid of IIP, civil servants, and generally a good look at what REMFS are up to. Can anyone actually explain the flight ops role to me, and why its needed???? Rant over :ok: |
Cut civil servants. Definitely. Like I said on an earlier thread, here are the facts:
On scanning the recent Armed Forces Pay Review Body Report, I was intrigued to read that there were 131 military officers of 2* rank, or above. I also noted there were 3700 equivalent ‘Senior Civil Servants’, who seem, incidentally, to be paid more than their military equivalents. I assumed the 3700 figure meant across all departments of government, not just MOD. Here, www.mod.uk/aboutus/keyfacts/numbers.htm total military numbers are given as 205,700 (ok, 2001 data – but wtf?). This gives a ratio of 1 senior military bloke for every 1570 serving personnel. For the Senior Civil Servants, taken from here, http://www.civil-service.gov.uk/stat...fing-oct03.pdf I note the total number of permanent & casual full time equivalent Civil Servants is given as 522,050. This gives a ratio of 1 Senior Civil Servant for every 141 Civil Servants – more than 10 times the equivalent military ratio. Which does this highlight more: Armed Forces efficiency or Civil Service profligacy? And how is the notion of rank/grade equivalence sustained? Civ Servs' span of control and scope of responsibility is always less in their stay at home, stay alive, 37.5 hour week. |
Ears, old son!
Sounds like it's time for a letter to that bastion of HM forces - the SUN! Unfortunately, there seems to be only one way to get this govt to do anything - shame them. (and even that doesn't work most of the time as they are so arrogant!) I have never witnessed a bunch that are more self-interested than this lot - and that's accepting that in general, all politicians are as bad as each other. I hope the nation makes em all redundant at the next election - whether it's the General Election or through the local election of MPs. Lying B45t4rds (IMHO) :( :mad: :\ |
NVQs
November4 wrote:
Cutting NVQs out would save......not very much as the costs of delivery etc are met by drawing down funds from the Government's education department which is separte and totally different from the MoD's budget. Not doing NVQs would mean this money cannot be gained. If anything cutting out NVQs would mean that station budgets would have to increase because the wages of the NVQ staff are met from Innsworth via this funding. What do they achieve - the chance for the lowly paid airman to jump a year in his increments. BTW if you are an NVQ assessor in the work place - you can now be paid around £45 per unit you sign off. On the subject of RAF Regt guarding, I think the person being lambasted was misunderstood, but I can't seem to find the quote. What I think they were saying was that they would rather see the RAF Regt patrolling the fence that Plod. At some Units, the only personnel not eligible for guard duty are the RAFP! Madness? RANT ON What really grips my sh%t is seeing people professionally trained to perform operational and technical roles prevented from doing so to guard the gate. You don't expect to see British Airways technicians taking their turn at strolling round the departure lounge with HKs! Investment in People should be a state of mind, where we train people to do what is required, then employ them to do what they are trained for. What we don't need is expensive external assessment demanding paperwork to prove that people do their jobs in a professional manner so that they can get certificates that in many cases are neither relevant nor meaningful inside or outside the Services! RANT OFF Back to savings ... Not a trick question this, but following on from Anton Dhorn's quote: You clearly have no comprehension of the MPA role since submarines sodded off. |
About the Regt, i meant guarding in the broadest possible meaning. I've been at locations where the Regt have provided BDZ and Ground Defence at Sqn strength levels, in operational theatres. They made me feel safe by their professional approaches to both areas. The plods should go back to doing the Guard room be they Mod or Boys in white hats, and if we're continually shafted by the EU, then we stop the self flagulation of CM's and use those high paid lawyers i talked about to draw up descent employment contracts. Because I for one am fed up seeing idiots that are repeatedly late for work given the oppertunity to go for CM. If they are late for the shift then get them where it hurts in the pocket by deducting the money at the end of the month. I know that the hours that people work in the services are far more than the 37 hour week, but there are a lot of managers who are paid on time off in lieu or not. If the offense is of a more serious nature then let the civvy bill in to handle the matter and then if they are sent down, well services no longer required.
Instead of having NVQ assessors going round being paid loads of dosh, get them in once. Get each and every job assessed and if you can do the job you get given an NVQ I.E a WO or WC gets an NVQ 4 in management. Pilots get their PPL, ATC/AD Controllers get a civvy ticket, RN ship drivers get their civvy Merchant tickets, E.T.C. Let people do the job they are trained for, with a civvy equivalent, so they can get employment after they leave the mob. But i believe that if they are happy doing the job they like and they don't have to suffer the aditional PC S41T then very few would leave. As for SirToppamHat i too have seen people who are ZERO use outside of the Basic training/NVQ jobs. As for doing the job of normal trades walking the wire then let every body do it in peace time, that is without exception. We are all targtes of terrorists, be they from Near or far. So we should always protect our self. What gets my and i believe other people goats is those who on the smallest of excuses manager to avoid doing the training and the duty. Vage Rot i heartly aree about the saving of 2p, having recieved a demand for 24p sent to me at a new station by civvy post and having been sent in an envelope with a first class stamp on it 26p. Why not have those people there to read the books totelluse how we can do something, rather than why we can't do some thing cause their interpreatation of the regs says we can't. Talking about Budgets, when the station managed budget was mutted i thought great, a degree of flexability. But as usual i was disappointed, let the WC station commanders run their own budget, (ok within guidelines) but without micro management. From the top, tell people what they want doing give them guidelines and advice if they need it. Then trust them to get the job done!!!! But why shut stations, if they open more there is more jobs for people. Less poverity, less unemployment, better local economies. As even i don't think we can re-open many of the london sites. With a rebuilding program that encompasses technical sites and accomodation the building trade gets more money and civvy housing willnt be in such dire straits as all those who can't afford first time houses till age 34 are helped out with a good life in the forces till they deceide they want to by. Yes and i know that all the hogs will be ready to fly for the 1st wave on monday morning. But what a change, people actually thinking what they could improve in the mob. PS Flight Ops was created to let the aircrew working on the desks go back into the jobs they were trained/paid for. |
This cannot be same as the Vulcan thread
The Vulcan left service many years ago and any interesting stories about it can be told without fear of reprisals. Not so with the Nimrod, which might come from the same era as the Vulcan, but it is still flying and people will be reluctant to air their dirty linen, etc.
I could mention some pubished events: 3 incidents on the ground in recent years: a taxying aircraft striking a building in Gib, a parked aircraft rolled backward over the (tactical) nosewheel chocks which were the only chocks fitted. A parked but unchocked aircraft, supposedly with the paking brake applied, rolled forward. We've had non-operating pilots stood on the flight deck during aborted take-offs falling forward in to the throttle pedestal. We've had a Nimrod land on a flooded runway and run off the end of the stopway and into the clearway. It was night and at least 15 mins after the rain stopped but there was a lack of drainage and wind to blow the water away. Despite diligence and common sense in everything we do up here, we are not without incident. |
STH...
Why don't you enlighten us? Just get it into your head that Nimrods do not simply hunt for subs and do SAR. MadMark!!! :mad: |
Mad Mark, thanks for your reply to STH reference the roles of the Nimrod. Saved me putting my beer down!! :ok:
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I understand that the RAF has more personnel per aircraft than any other air force on the planet and having worked on an RAF station for the last year or so I can see that that is probably true.
I won't quote some of the numbers that work in various departments here and the number of aircraft that they support (V V small) for obvious reasons, but the figures are staggering. This is not a pop at anyone (it's obvious that I am not a crab) but in todays budget driven climate it is more than a little surprising that the ratio of personnel to aircraft remains as it is. |
Could someone remind me, what branch makes up 90% of the RAF's senior management (ie the people who have the clout to influence support (or REMF, if you prefer) manpower levels)? :hmm:
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Mad Mark and A D
Thanks for the patronising replies to what was, I have to admit, a somewhat tongue-in-cheek question. Nuff said. STH |
Streamline all Uk armed forces a la the Canadian model, ie: one force with the same uniform,basic training,rank structure & logs network.
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Bullet
...but check out the NHS for personnel per desk ratios. Visit your sick friend/relative in your local hospital and see how many nurses are stacked on the desk at the end of the ward, drinking tea, nattering and pointedly refusing to attend to their patients' needs. And the patients and their visitors are too meek to ask for help because 'I don't want to make a fuss'. Seven is the most I've seen, by the way....so far. NHS understaffed? My b*m! At least the excess RAF personnel get on with their work and the RAF gets well-serviced aircraft that function most of the time. But the NHS's patients....God help 'em. This does not apply to A&E, whose staff earn every penny and deserve medals every time they turn up on shift, especially on weekend nights. Or to those TA medics in GW2 who appeared to do more work than the regulars. Sorry about the irrelevant rant but it makes my blood boil - but I won't be seeking NHS help for that condition. |
Zoom, careful with the generalisations. You may have had a bad experience with the NHS but as I write Mrs Glide is at work on a NHS medical ward, 24 patients and only 3 nurses on the shift because they cannot find any more! The nurses there would just love to have the time to drink tea if only just once per shift. NHS undermanned.....no doubt. Over-managed absobl00dylutely!:mad:
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woptb,
here in Canuck Land we haven't had the same uniform for over 15 years. The 20 years that we were forced to wear the green garbage bag of the Unified Force, were the worst imaginable for morale. |
What would I cut? Hmmmn! How about every Senoir Officer? No, allright then how about every Sqn Ldr who is not in charge of a Squadron, every Wg Cdr that isn't in charge of a Wing, every Gp Capt who is't in charge of a Group etc etc. We'd save millions and probably run smoother.
I'm sick of all the power battles on my Sqn where the 5 Sqn Ldr's are all trying to run the place, all wanting different things and having different opinions on how the sqn should be run. All in all we could run without half the number of officers we have we are soon to be so small do we need HQ STC, DLO etc etc? Put the few remaining ac types on one main unit with all it's support at that main unit where everything actually happens so that reality checks can be carried out when these top level decisions are taken and those in command can see the results of their actions rather than get some statty to fudge some figures to make it all look a success. Then all we have to do is get rid of politicians!!:p |
An excellent summary, how it should be.
Reality check, it will never happen:( |
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