Sea Jet
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 816
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An extract from a news item on another group relating the SHAR:-
"By Peter Day
When inexperienced Royal Navy pilot Ian "Soapy" Watson got lost flying a Sea Harrier jump jet and landed the £7 million aircraft on the deck of a
container ship senior officers reprimanded him for incompetence.
Now it has emerged that behind the scenes they were laying the blame
elsewhere to try to get out of a £570,000 compensation bill.
A file released yesterday at the National Archives describes how Sub-Lt
Watson, 25, ''incurred the Commander in Chief of the Fleet's Displeasure''
for displaying an unsatisfactory standard of fundamental airmanship.
But the Ministry of Defence file shows that he had completed only 75 per
cent of the recommended flying hours in training before being pressed into
service and was allowed to take an aircraft with a known radio defect.
An unnamed senior officer commented: ''I am speechless, as was Watson.''
Sub-Lt Watson had taken off from the carrier Illustrious off the Spanish
coast on June 6, 1983 to conduct a Nato search exercise.
The crew of the 2,300-ton Spanish container ship Alraigo won a salvage claim and shared £340,000, with the remaining £230,000 going to the owners of the
vessel."
"By Peter Day
When inexperienced Royal Navy pilot Ian "Soapy" Watson got lost flying a Sea Harrier jump jet and landed the £7 million aircraft on the deck of a
container ship senior officers reprimanded him for incompetence.
Now it has emerged that behind the scenes they were laying the blame
elsewhere to try to get out of a £570,000 compensation bill.
A file released yesterday at the National Archives describes how Sub-Lt
Watson, 25, ''incurred the Commander in Chief of the Fleet's Displeasure''
for displaying an unsatisfactory standard of fundamental airmanship.
But the Ministry of Defence file shows that he had completed only 75 per
cent of the recommended flying hours in training before being pressed into
service and was allowed to take an aircraft with a known radio defect.
An unnamed senior officer commented: ''I am speechless, as was Watson.''
Sub-Lt Watson had taken off from the carrier Illustrious off the Spanish
coast on June 6, 1983 to conduct a Nato search exercise.
The crew of the 2,300-ton Spanish container ship Alraigo won a salvage claim and shared £340,000, with the remaining £230,000 going to the owners of the
vessel."
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Age: 47
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi, I am trying to find out how fast was the acceleration of the sea harrier on the take off roll. Going from a standing start what speed would it be at leaving the top of the ramp?
Sorry if this info is available elsewhere. My search of the web and this thread has not delivered.
Thanks for any help
Grindlay
Sorry if this info is available elsewhere. My search of the web and this thread has not delivered.
Thanks for any help
Grindlay
This week, the BBC South West news programme Spotlight has been doing a series of articles to mark the 60th anniversary of RNAS Culdrose. This Thursday's article was on the fire fighting and deck operations training done at the RN School of Flight Deck Operations - including the use of the Sea Harriers sent there.
BBC News Player
Just thought I'd add this for completeness.
Navaleye
The future is CVF, but not until 2014. An eight year capability gap, and the shortages of aircraft that can be embarked now and the shortage of RN pilots (where did they all go?) can only make the Future Carrier project harder than it needs to be.
BBC News Player
Just thought I'd add this for completeness.
Navaleye
The future is CVF, but not until 2014. An eight year capability gap, and the shortages of aircraft that can be embarked now and the shortage of RN pilots (where did they all go?) can only make the Future Carrier project harder than it needs to be.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 1,771
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To get to the cut -
We've all heard stories from our grandfathers & fathers of fields full of Spitfires etc after WW2, going for a song - but apart from the purchase price ( maybe ) with running costs completely beyond the average person.
Those aircraft are now in great demand, both for historical & purely selfish enjoyment reasons - who's to argue that if done correctly, such things will no doubt bring income to charities etc as a by-product.
It doesn't take Dr Who ( for Christ's sake the modern one not the dodgy types ) to realise the same " my god the things were going for a song " re. the FA2 will be the case in the not so distant future - snag is official vandalism...
Restorers even brought 'Glacier Girl' up to flying again for Christ's sake - who would have thought that of the people who originally flew let alone built her...
So, Navy Historic Flight boss of the time - whoever has the excuses, probably a fish head admiral, it won't be the people who do the work or indeed flying - hang your head in shame.
Plan 2, help Art Nalls.
I am not financially involved in any way with the XZ439 project, but have put any info' & contacts I can to help towards them.
As sad as it seems this highly qualified but hardly over-funded or crewed team can do what the RN couldn't...
We've all heard stories from our grandfathers & fathers of fields full of Spitfires etc after WW2, going for a song - but apart from the purchase price ( maybe ) with running costs completely beyond the average person.
Those aircraft are now in great demand, both for historical & purely selfish enjoyment reasons - who's to argue that if done correctly, such things will no doubt bring income to charities etc as a by-product.
It doesn't take Dr Who ( for Christ's sake the modern one not the dodgy types ) to realise the same " my god the things were going for a song " re. the FA2 will be the case in the not so distant future - snag is official vandalism...
Restorers even brought 'Glacier Girl' up to flying again for Christ's sake - who would have thought that of the people who originally flew let alone built her...
So, Navy Historic Flight boss of the time - whoever has the excuses, probably a fish head admiral, it won't be the people who do the work or indeed flying - hang your head in shame.
Plan 2, help Art Nalls.
I am not financially involved in any way with the XZ439 project, but have put any info' & contacts I can to help towards them.
As sad as it seems this highly qualified but hardly over-funded or crewed team can do what the RN couldn't...
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: wherever I lay my headset
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The SHAR is gone. It isn't coming back.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: North East England
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not mil so excuse the intrusion please.
The BBC clip showed SHARS running. Is that recent? Are there still ground running examples about like that? Are the guys driving them round that pan pilots or deck crew trained in ground movement?
Dan
The BBC clip showed SHARS running. Is that recent? Are there still ground running examples about like that? Are the guys driving them round that pan pilots or deck crew trained in ground movement?
Dan
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hampshire
Age: 62
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dan,
Here is a FOI response I received dated Sept 2006 which may answer your question:
"1.Can you advise how many former Sea Harrier pilots remain within 'Joint Force Harrier'?
Currently there are 13 former Sea Harrier pilots qualified on GR7/9 and serving within JFH plus 3 on current RN Migration Course (FA2 to GR7/9 conversion course) due to join Front Line Squadrons by Nov 06. There are 4 more ex SHAR pilots scheduled for RN Migration Courses between now and Jul 07. *
2. Can you advise how many Sea Harriers remain in MOD ownership and their current condition?
The breakdown of Sea Harrier disposition and current material state, confirmed through Defence Sales Agency, the Harrier IPT and 801 Sqn SHAR drawdown officers, is as shown
COTTESMORE(COTO:
2FA2
Both are gate guardians with one currently at Greenwich (parented by COTT) and due to return to COTT very soon. A/c are inhibited (to prevent deterioration due to adverse environmental conditions), have engines fitted, generally free from all fuels, lubes and explosives.
WITTERING:
1 T8
A/c is a gate guardian - aircraft is inhibited, has engine fitted, generally free from all fuels, lubes and explosives.
YEOVILTON:
1 FA2
A/c is a gate guardian - aircraft is inhibited, has engine fitted, generally free from all fuels, lubes and explosives. There is one FRS1 in the Fleet Air Arm Museum however, this is not owned by MOD.
CULDROSE:
6 FA2
2T8
Transferred to RNAS Culdrose RN School of Flight Deck Ops (RNSFDO) - complete and capable of taxing. Of these, 2 FA2s appear unfit for purpose at the RNSFDO, these a/c have been bid for as ground instructional aircraft for DCAE Sultan; these a/c may be backfilled from 2 FA2s from Shawbury.
QINETIQBoscombe Down:
1 T8
Soon to be sold to QinetiQ as a source of spares for the VAAC research a/c and then removed from MOD inventory.
SHAWBURY:
8 FA2 *
Stored awaiting disposal (4 earmarked for Indian Navy as piece part spares (PPS) for FRS51s) - aircraft are largely complete, but have had classified equipment removed - 5 a/c have engine fitted.
A/C TOTALS:
FA2 = 17 (reducing to 13 once 4 sold to India for PPS)
T8 = 4 (reducing to 3 once 1 sold to QinetiQ for PPS)
3. What training in air to air combat do Joint Force Harrier pilots receive?
All fast jet pilots are first introduced to air combat through a common Air Combat Manoeuvring (ACM) syllabus during advanced flying training, currently conducted at RAF Valley.
Whilst offensive ACM is taught on the Harrier Operational Conversion Unit (OCU) and beyond, JFH ACM training centres around training GR7/9 pilots to fight and survive if their fighter cover fails to protect them, or they are attacked en route to a target.
Currently there are 3 stages of ACM training the Pilots receive. The initial training at the OCU consists of 1 x T10 handling trip followed by 7 x 1 v 1 similar type sorties.
The second stage is then conducted on the Frontline to achieve Day Combat Ready and consists of 4 sorties (1v1, 2v1 as subordinate (Dissimilar Air Combat Training (DACT)), 2v1 as lead (DACT) & 2v2 (DACT)). The final stage is the Air Combat Leader phase which is given to senior pairs leaders and consists of a further 4 sorties
(1v1, 1v1v1, 2v2 (DACT) & Multi a/c (DACT)), There is one further qualification, namely Air Combat Instructor, but is very rarely achieved due to other pressing commitments.
The OCU ACM syllabus has just been re-written, but is yet to be implemented. The new syllabus includes 3 sorties of 1v1, Harrier vs Harrier to refresh ACM techniques, highlight Harrier / Hawk differences and introduce Vectoring in Forward Flight ('Viffing'). Subsequently, the syllabus concentrates on 2 v 1 ACM initially like vs like. but ultimately introducing 2 v1 versus a radar equipped threat (such as Typhoon) Ground Controlled Intercepts.
4. What provision has been made to upgrade GR7/9 aircraft for the air to air combat role?
The primary role of the GR9 will be one of day/night ground-attack and reconnaissance. As such, it will possess a limited self-defence capability akin to that of GR7.
5. What provision has been made to equip GR7/9 aircraft with BVR radar and missiles should they be required at short notice?
There is currently no plan to integrate BVR missiles onto GR9."
Here is a FOI response I received dated Sept 2006 which may answer your question:
"1.Can you advise how many former Sea Harrier pilots remain within 'Joint Force Harrier'?
Currently there are 13 former Sea Harrier pilots qualified on GR7/9 and serving within JFH plus 3 on current RN Migration Course (FA2 to GR7/9 conversion course) due to join Front Line Squadrons by Nov 06. There are 4 more ex SHAR pilots scheduled for RN Migration Courses between now and Jul 07. *
2. Can you advise how many Sea Harriers remain in MOD ownership and their current condition?
The breakdown of Sea Harrier disposition and current material state, confirmed through Defence Sales Agency, the Harrier IPT and 801 Sqn SHAR drawdown officers, is as shown
COTTESMORE(COTO:
2FA2
Both are gate guardians with one currently at Greenwich (parented by COTT) and due to return to COTT very soon. A/c are inhibited (to prevent deterioration due to adverse environmental conditions), have engines fitted, generally free from all fuels, lubes and explosives.
WITTERING:
1 T8
A/c is a gate guardian - aircraft is inhibited, has engine fitted, generally free from all fuels, lubes and explosives.
YEOVILTON:
1 FA2
A/c is a gate guardian - aircraft is inhibited, has engine fitted, generally free from all fuels, lubes and explosives. There is one FRS1 in the Fleet Air Arm Museum however, this is not owned by MOD.
CULDROSE:
6 FA2
2T8
Transferred to RNAS Culdrose RN School of Flight Deck Ops (RNSFDO) - complete and capable of taxing. Of these, 2 FA2s appear unfit for purpose at the RNSFDO, these a/c have been bid for as ground instructional aircraft for DCAE Sultan; these a/c may be backfilled from 2 FA2s from Shawbury.
QINETIQBoscombe Down:
1 T8
Soon to be sold to QinetiQ as a source of spares for the VAAC research a/c and then removed from MOD inventory.
SHAWBURY:
8 FA2 *
Stored awaiting disposal (4 earmarked for Indian Navy as piece part spares (PPS) for FRS51s) - aircraft are largely complete, but have had classified equipment removed - 5 a/c have engine fitted.
A/C TOTALS:
FA2 = 17 (reducing to 13 once 4 sold to India for PPS)
T8 = 4 (reducing to 3 once 1 sold to QinetiQ for PPS)
3. What training in air to air combat do Joint Force Harrier pilots receive?
All fast jet pilots are first introduced to air combat through a common Air Combat Manoeuvring (ACM) syllabus during advanced flying training, currently conducted at RAF Valley.
Whilst offensive ACM is taught on the Harrier Operational Conversion Unit (OCU) and beyond, JFH ACM training centres around training GR7/9 pilots to fight and survive if their fighter cover fails to protect them, or they are attacked en route to a target.
Currently there are 3 stages of ACM training the Pilots receive. The initial training at the OCU consists of 1 x T10 handling trip followed by 7 x 1 v 1 similar type sorties.
The second stage is then conducted on the Frontline to achieve Day Combat Ready and consists of 4 sorties (1v1, 2v1 as subordinate (Dissimilar Air Combat Training (DACT)), 2v1 as lead (DACT) & 2v2 (DACT)). The final stage is the Air Combat Leader phase which is given to senior pairs leaders and consists of a further 4 sorties
(1v1, 1v1v1, 2v2 (DACT) & Multi a/c (DACT)), There is one further qualification, namely Air Combat Instructor, but is very rarely achieved due to other pressing commitments.
The OCU ACM syllabus has just been re-written, but is yet to be implemented. The new syllabus includes 3 sorties of 1v1, Harrier vs Harrier to refresh ACM techniques, highlight Harrier / Hawk differences and introduce Vectoring in Forward Flight ('Viffing'). Subsequently, the syllabus concentrates on 2 v 1 ACM initially like vs like. but ultimately introducing 2 v1 versus a radar equipped threat (such as Typhoon) Ground Controlled Intercepts.
4. What provision has been made to upgrade GR7/9 aircraft for the air to air combat role?
The primary role of the GR9 will be one of day/night ground-attack and reconnaissance. As such, it will possess a limited self-defence capability akin to that of GR7.
5. What provision has been made to equip GR7/9 aircraft with BVR radar and missiles should they be required at short notice?
There is currently no plan to integrate BVR missiles onto GR9."
cheers
Sunk
Sunk
Do a Hover - it avoids G
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Chichester West Sussex UK
Age: 91
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Grindlay
There is no simple precise answer to your question of how fast would it be going at the top of the ramp because that depends on where it started on the deck and which ramp angle it was using as well as its weight and the ambient conditions which natutally determine the thrust of the engine.
Typically you will not be far out on the weight/thrust issues likely to apply on such a normal service takeoff if you assume a T/W ratio in the range 0.85 to 0.93.
You can do your own flat deck sums by use of the equations of motion which I am sure you know. If not then the ones you need are v=ft and s=1/2f(t squared). V being speed, f being acceleration (which is T/W x g) and t being time. Use whichever system of units you like but keep them all the same.
As for the reduction in endspeed due to going up the ramp (when compared to the flat deck case) it is likely to be less than 3-4 kts and lost in the noise of windspeed over the deck.
There is no simple precise answer to your question of how fast would it be going at the top of the ramp because that depends on where it started on the deck and which ramp angle it was using as well as its weight and the ambient conditions which natutally determine the thrust of the engine.
Typically you will not be far out on the weight/thrust issues likely to apply on such a normal service takeoff if you assume a T/W ratio in the range 0.85 to 0.93.
You can do your own flat deck sums by use of the equations of motion which I am sure you know. If not then the ones you need are v=ft and s=1/2f(t squared). V being speed, f being acceleration (which is T/W x g) and t being time. Use whichever system of units you like but keep them all the same.
As for the reduction in endspeed due to going up the ramp (when compared to the flat deck case) it is likely to be less than 3-4 kts and lost in the noise of windspeed over the deck.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Chichester West Sussex UK
Age: 91
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Grindlay
My apologies but I forgot to say that I ignored aerodynamic drag. Given the very low speeds involved I doubt the reduction in end speed due to drag would be more than a very small number of knots - again I would guess less than 5.
My apologies but I forgot to say that I ignored aerodynamic drag. Given the very low speeds involved I doubt the reduction in end speed due to drag would be more than a very small number of knots - again I would guess less than 5.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Maryland
Age: 64
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sunk and Tyne,
FA2 XZ439 (N94422) is at St Mary's county Airport California MARYLAND (2W6). We were doing engine runs and final prep for first civilian flight when the GTS turbine failed, (in a most spectacular fashion). We have three "extras" and are going to the factory in Monroe NC to have them evaluated and repaired/overhauled. As we have been told "A GTS failure is likened to a light bulb failure, it will work 150 times and on the 151st boom.
any way just to let you know and to complete your list.
Double zero thanks for your support and Mr. Farley thanks.
FA2 XZ439 (N94422) is at St Mary's county Airport California MARYLAND (2W6). We were doing engine runs and final prep for first civilian flight when the GTS turbine failed, (in a most spectacular fashion). We have three "extras" and are going to the factory in Monroe NC to have them evaluated and repaired/overhauled. As we have been told "A GTS failure is likened to a light bulb failure, it will work 150 times and on the 151st boom.
any way just to let you know and to complete your list.
Double zero thanks for your support and Mr. Farley thanks.
I had a peek at the 2007-2008 edition of Jane's Fighting Ships today. It says that the Indian Navy is looking to upgrade the Sea Harrier FRS51 (new avionics etc) to last until 2020. It also notes that the proposed purchase of up to eight ex RN FA2s is off the cards.
No mention is made of the RNSFDO Sea Harriers. It wasn't last year either, although the mighty Bristol still gets a passing mention in the Destroyers section, despite being decommissioned since 1991/92(?), being moored permanently at Whale Island and being not very seaworthy. She is described as an "immobile tender".
Also, Invincible is still listed under the Carriers section, along with her sister CVSs, despite having been decommissioned. Janes reckon it would take up to 18 months to return her to the front line, although things can be done faster during a crisis. From her web page:
After 3 commissions Invincible was decommissioned from her third in August 2005, as her period of operational tasking ended. This is part of a long-standing plan that will see the oldest CVS held at a low level of readiness. This process is often mistaken for being withdrawn from service but we are still very much "part of the fleet". In fact Invincible will remain available to the Navy until 2010.
Not in service but still owned by the MOD? Not totally dissimilar to the situation with the RNSFDO aircraft!! If nothing else it is better than a scrap yard.
tyne - that video clip was from local news last Thursday (2nd August 07).
No mention is made of the RNSFDO Sea Harriers. It wasn't last year either, although the mighty Bristol still gets a passing mention in the Destroyers section, despite being decommissioned since 1991/92(?), being moored permanently at Whale Island and being not very seaworthy. She is described as an "immobile tender".
Also, Invincible is still listed under the Carriers section, along with her sister CVSs, despite having been decommissioned. Janes reckon it would take up to 18 months to return her to the front line, although things can be done faster during a crisis. From her web page:
After 3 commissions Invincible was decommissioned from her third in August 2005, as her period of operational tasking ended. This is part of a long-standing plan that will see the oldest CVS held at a low level of readiness. This process is often mistaken for being withdrawn from service but we are still very much "part of the fleet". In fact Invincible will remain available to the Navy until 2010.
Not in service but still owned by the MOD? Not totally dissimilar to the situation with the RNSFDO aircraft!! If nothing else it is better than a scrap yard.
tyne - that video clip was from local news last Thursday (2nd August 07).
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 8th Aug 2007 at 23:08.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: troon
Age: 61
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This process is often mistaken for being withdrawn from service but we are still very much "part of the fleet". In fact Invincible will remain available to the Navy until 2010.
Well, I reckon thats 12 SHAR's left- 4 at Culdrose and 8 at Shawbury.
There are six in this picture of the RNSFDO Dummy Deck.
According to this page SFDO has seven Sea Harrier FA2s (including aircraft delivered in the late 80s and 90s, and the bright blue one) and two T8s.
There are six in this picture of the RNSFDO Dummy Deck.
According to this page SFDO has seven Sea Harrier FA2s (including aircraft delivered in the late 80s and 90s, and the bright blue one) and two T8s.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 19th Aug 2007 at 22:10.
Suspicion breeds confidence
From what I hear the SFDO harriers are well maintained. Most of the GR3s are no longer capable of moving under their own power however. Presumably the RN is going to have to invest in some new concrete in the run up to CVF.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 1,771
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FRS 1 Yeovilton
Sunk At Narvik
I know it's been mentioned before, but I'm 99% sure the 'FRS1' at Yeovilton is a very static bodge with large parts of GR3, the Navy wanted to convert all the 'fleet' to FA2's & did so.
I know it's been mentioned before, but I'm 99% sure the 'FRS1' at Yeovilton is a very static bodge with large parts of GR3, the Navy wanted to convert all the 'fleet' to FA2's & did so.