Sea Jet
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
With apologies to MJ:
Definately bite time....... the fish in my pond are rising still despite the cold.
Definately bite time....... the fish in my pond are rising still despite the cold.
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How many RAF JFH have PVR'd? And how many of the RAF in JFH would really like to transfer to the RN if they were allowed to? When does current AOC 1 Gp leave (and OC Cott?)?
"But as some wag asked an Admiral, who said the Navy ruled the seas which covered two thirds of a planet, how much of the planet was covered by air."
Most of it, except maybe for downtown LA on a bad day.
Most of it, except maybe for downtown LA on a bad day.
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Football match
Isn't it traditional to have a truce, enacted through a football match in no man's land, on Christmas day?
Maybe Jacko and WEBF can throw their jumpers down for goal posts and pick a couple of Prune 11's to have a friendly game. All in the spirit of Christmas.
Jacko, you must promise not to quote your mysterious but 100% credible 'man on the inside' or mention the criminal waste that is the loss of the Jaguar, the only truly viable OS aircraft.
WE, you must promise not to mention the Falklands or mention the criminal waste that is the loss of the Sea Harrier whose AIM120 utility in theatre would be second only to the limited amount of time on task.
While you are playing, the on-watch HERRICK squadron, (predominantly RN but very happy to have our RAF, RM and Army colleagues as integral members,) will quietly get on with the job several hoped we would fail at and most simply knew we wouldn't.
It may gaul some but for the immediate future the UK is jointly delivering one of the most effective uses of airpower in recent times. We have the VIP and senior officer visit programme to prove it. Luckily the aircrew, engineers and ops support personnel don't get distracted or influenced (too much) by those that are fighting yesterday's battles or simply can't accept the future without tainting it with their own prejudice.
Spare a brief thought for us (pick your service if your are blinded by the colour of your cloth, we have them all here) while we try and work out what the protein based meat product is that they are planning to serve us on Christmas Day. You don't see many dogs in Afghanistan, I'm not sure if there's a link.
Ho, ho, ho.
Maybe Jacko and WEBF can throw their jumpers down for goal posts and pick a couple of Prune 11's to have a friendly game. All in the spirit of Christmas.
Jacko, you must promise not to quote your mysterious but 100% credible 'man on the inside' or mention the criminal waste that is the loss of the Jaguar, the only truly viable OS aircraft.
WE, you must promise not to mention the Falklands or mention the criminal waste that is the loss of the Sea Harrier whose AIM120 utility in theatre would be second only to the limited amount of time on task.
While you are playing, the on-watch HERRICK squadron, (predominantly RN but very happy to have our RAF, RM and Army colleagues as integral members,) will quietly get on with the job several hoped we would fail at and most simply knew we wouldn't.
It may gaul some but for the immediate future the UK is jointly delivering one of the most effective uses of airpower in recent times. We have the VIP and senior officer visit programme to prove it. Luckily the aircrew, engineers and ops support personnel don't get distracted or influenced (too much) by those that are fighting yesterday's battles or simply can't accept the future without tainting it with their own prejudice.
Spare a brief thought for us (pick your service if your are blinded by the colour of your cloth, we have them all here) while we try and work out what the protein based meat product is that they are planning to serve us on Christmas Day. You don't see many dogs in Afghanistan, I'm not sure if there's a link.
Ho, ho, ho.
Last edited by FB11; 23rd Dec 2006 at 17:43. Reason: spelling
FB11 I've already stated my opinion that this thread should be allowed to gracefully retire, several times in fact. I also stated my belief that the Future Carrier thread is a better place to discuss things to do with the future of RN carrier aviation.
Good luck to you and everyone else out there, and stay safe.
Happy Christmas.
Good luck to you and everyone else out there, and stay safe.
Happy Christmas.
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PN
and the first CAG will wear light blue
Merry Christmas to all.
Oggin
A suggestion
Without wishing to restart the argument again, I note that on several occasions in recent years a CVS has embarked a Sea Harrier squadron AND a Harrier GR7 one, giving fifteen or sixteen jets to deal with as well as some helicopters. Now it seems unlikely that two GR7/9 units could embark at the same time, so the maximum number of jets on board would be six to eight.
Yet CVF will mean that flight deck personnel will have to deal with up to 42 jets.
If the aircraft sent down to SFDO at Culdrose are well looked after, then they could be used on occasion to give experience of having a crowded hangar and flight deck, in the years prior to CVF entering service.
Sorry for bumping the thread again, just me thinking out loud.
Without wishing to restart the argument again, I note that on several occasions in recent years a CVS has embarked a Sea Harrier squadron AND a Harrier GR7 one, giving fifteen or sixteen jets to deal with as well as some helicopters. Now it seems unlikely that two GR7/9 units could embark at the same time, so the maximum number of jets on board would be six to eight.
Yet CVF will mean that flight deck personnel will have to deal with up to 42 jets.
If the aircraft sent down to SFDO at Culdrose are well looked after, then they could be used on occasion to give experience of having a crowded hangar and flight deck, in the years prior to CVF entering service.
Sorry for bumping the thread again, just me thinking out loud.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 5th Jan 2007 at 22:10.
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Now WEBF, you may just have something here.
But let's not stop at the busy deck; if they're in such good shape we could possibly taxi them around to really stimulate the deck process..... hang on, how about we get a few guys who used to fly these things and maybe they could launch and recover to the deck, that'd exercise it..... WAIT! I am really being dull. If we got them flying again, strapped some AIM120 on we could even defend the CVF instead of the reduced readiness/cancelled escorts. Doh, suckered into it, fell for it again. I can't believe I got reeled in so quickly.
Maybe, instead of the CU deck trainers, we could project holographic aircraft for the Naval Airmen to avoid? It would be a lot less costly than banging GR9 or JCA into a real, manly-made-of-metal-not-composite Sea Harrier.
Or we could rope off whole sections of the CVF flight deck to make it the same size as, say, a CVS?
Or we could have paper aircraft like we did on Illustrious earlier in 2006.
Or we could rejoice on the fact that we have a flight deck that's big enough not to have to crowd it with every front line Harrier and all the ones in the sustainment fleet just to prove we can do it.
Didn't you say on 23 December? "FB11 I've already stated my opinion that this thread should be allowed to gracefully retire, several times in fact. I also stated my belief that the Future Carrier thread is a better place to discuss things to do with the future of RN carrier aviation."
8 GR9 on a deck that's got 3 times as much surface area? Luxury.
But let's not stop at the busy deck; if they're in such good shape we could possibly taxi them around to really stimulate the deck process..... hang on, how about we get a few guys who used to fly these things and maybe they could launch and recover to the deck, that'd exercise it..... WAIT! I am really being dull. If we got them flying again, strapped some AIM120 on we could even defend the CVF instead of the reduced readiness/cancelled escorts. Doh, suckered into it, fell for it again. I can't believe I got reeled in so quickly.
Maybe, instead of the CU deck trainers, we could project holographic aircraft for the Naval Airmen to avoid? It would be a lot less costly than banging GR9 or JCA into a real, manly-made-of-metal-not-composite Sea Harrier.
Or we could rope off whole sections of the CVF flight deck to make it the same size as, say, a CVS?
Or we could have paper aircraft like we did on Illustrious earlier in 2006.
Or we could rejoice on the fact that we have a flight deck that's big enough not to have to crowd it with every front line Harrier and all the ones in the sustainment fleet just to prove we can do it.
Didn't you say on 23 December? "FB11 I've already stated my opinion that this thread should be allowed to gracefully retire, several times in fact. I also stated my belief that the Future Carrier thread is a better place to discuss things to do with the future of RN carrier aviation."
8 GR9 on a deck that's got 3 times as much surface area? Luxury.
Suspicion breeds confidence
It defies logic that a deployment of 7 airframes to 'Stan stretches JFH to the point where it is incapable of mounting maritime ops. As others have rightly pointed out, under the old arrangements deployments of 15 plus aircraft were not un-common, now they are just a pipe dream.
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It really doesn't defy any logic, let alone all logic.
We can't do everything asked of our little collection of aircraft in any given 12-month period. Something has to give.
Please don't be so 'conspiracy theorist' as to think it's just the CVS programme that we aren't fully commiting to.
An inability to touch type and a stunning lack of desire to go over and over and over old ground limits this response.
We can't do everything asked of our little collection of aircraft in any given 12-month period. Something has to give.
Please don't be so 'conspiracy theorist' as to think it's just the CVS programme that we aren't fully commiting to.
An inability to touch type and a stunning lack of desire to go over and over and over old ground limits this response.
My suggestion was for the years before CVF comes along. If they are other ways of training chockheads etc, then OK. Just thinking out loud.........
As you say, time to let the thread rest. Discussions on the future belong elsewhere - the Future Carrier thread perhaps?
As you say, time to let the thread rest. Discussions on the future belong elsewhere - the Future Carrier thread perhaps?
I note that the page on the RN website dedicated to the School of Flight Deck Operations and the Dummy Deck has not yet been updated to include details of the Sea Harriers sent there.
One Sea Harrier found its way to sunny California, where former USMC aviator (and qualified Engineer which probably helps) has been restoring it to flying condition - as discussed here on the Aviation History and Nostalgia forum. Note this was/is a small team, without the support of BAE Systems, Rolls Royce, Martin Baker etc. Very encouraging!
The possibility of participation in Falklands 25 events has also been discussed on PPRuNe, here and here.
Art Nalls now has a website dedicated to his Sea Harrier.
Nalls Aviation - Home of the Sea Harrier F/A2
I found the photo album particularly interesting.......
One Sea Harrier found its way to sunny California, where former USMC aviator (and qualified Engineer which probably helps) has been restoring it to flying condition - as discussed here on the Aviation History and Nostalgia forum. Note this was/is a small team, without the support of BAE Systems, Rolls Royce, Martin Baker etc. Very encouraging!
The possibility of participation in Falklands 25 events has also been discussed on PPRuNe, here and here.
Art Nalls now has a website dedicated to his Sea Harrier.
Nalls Aviation - Home of the Sea Harrier F/A2
I found the photo album particularly interesting.......
Following on from my previous post, the SFDO page has still not been updated, but I have found (by luck, to be honest) some pictures from HMS Siskin, the Dummy Deck at Culdrose.
Picture Gallery
It would appear that there are indeed Sea Harriers down there, that they are kept in a hangar and they appear to be in a reasonably good condition.
Picture Gallery
It would appear that there are indeed Sea Harriers down there, that they are kept in a hangar and they appear to be in a reasonably good condition.
The SFDO (or RNSFDO as I should be calling it) Dummy Deck page has now been updated to mention the Sea Harriers sent there, and has pictures of them too.
Dummy Deck
I posted the above link for the sake of completeness, but it is worth remembering that a number of the ships and aircraft sent South in 1982 (eg Intrepid) had been destined for disposal or storage, only to be regenerated in incredibly fast timescales. Likewise people, who had to adapt to new roles very fast, including some of the pilots who were sent to reinforce 800 and 801 in the later stages of the conflict. In a genuine crisis all sorts of things become possible. The ability to adapt, improvise, and overcome, as summed up by the phrase "can do", is part of our ethos.
Dummy Deck
I posted the above link for the sake of completeness, but it is worth remembering that a number of the ships and aircraft sent South in 1982 (eg Intrepid) had been destined for disposal or storage, only to be regenerated in incredibly fast timescales. Likewise people, who had to adapt to new roles very fast, including some of the pilots who were sent to reinforce 800 and 801 in the later stages of the conflict. In a genuine crisis all sorts of things become possible. The ability to adapt, improvise, and overcome, as summed up by the phrase "can do", is part of our ethos.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 3rd Jun 2007 at 13:27.
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So what?
There's still a runway at Carver Barracks (formerly RAF Debden - enough worthy history?) but us RAF types don't go on and on about it's loss to current capabilities, how good it was in its time etc etc.....
Change the record please
SBG
There's still a runway at Carver Barracks (formerly RAF Debden - enough worthy history?) but us RAF types don't go on and on about it's loss to current capabilities, how good it was in its time etc etc.....
Change the record please
SBG
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Change the record
Certainly, as soon as you can actually do what the Seajet / AMRAAM could - how about speaking up for Harrier 2+, which would actually be useful & share commonalitly;
rather than following the RAF tradition ( Tornado, Jaguar... ) of useless items in wartime, but great for wazzing your girlfriends' house...
As well as the FRS1 & 2 I was on the trials team for the GR5 / 7 & still in touch with the 9 team - even test pilots with a known briefed dayglo range target found things difficult;
targetting pods if they happen may help.
Oh and how about having a gun ? I saw the debacle that the Aden 25mm was first-hand - so why not admit a **** up & use the gatling the USMC do ?
I realise that's political & out of your hands, but don't be surprised that people who've dealt with Harrier 1 & 2 will mention deficiencies - another I might add is that carbon fibre is not a robust warlike material, and again I'm speaking from first hand experience.
A large part of the Seajet's premature retirement was due to BAe Wart On's " everything from down south we don't understand must be bad " attitude - they managed to steal the Hawk, just about able to cope with that, but anything labelled 'Harrier' got tossed into the Ribble.
I presume you think the Tornado F3 ( mustn't mention the F2 ) is a masterpiece ?
rather than following the RAF tradition ( Tornado, Jaguar... ) of useless items in wartime, but great for wazzing your girlfriends' house...
As well as the FRS1 & 2 I was on the trials team for the GR5 / 7 & still in touch with the 9 team - even test pilots with a known briefed dayglo range target found things difficult;
targetting pods if they happen may help.
Oh and how about having a gun ? I saw the debacle that the Aden 25mm was first-hand - so why not admit a **** up & use the gatling the USMC do ?
I realise that's political & out of your hands, but don't be surprised that people who've dealt with Harrier 1 & 2 will mention deficiencies - another I might add is that carbon fibre is not a robust warlike material, and again I'm speaking from first hand experience.
A large part of the Seajet's premature retirement was due to BAe Wart On's " everything from down south we don't understand must be bad " attitude - they managed to steal the Hawk, just about able to cope with that, but anything labelled 'Harrier' got tossed into the Ribble.
I presume you think the Tornado F3 ( mustn't mention the F2 ) is a masterpiece ?
Double Zero
Tadge harsh on the Tornado and Jaguar banter. The Tornado has been on Ops almost continually since 1990 and the Jaguar must have spent a good period since 1990 doing the same. Both have guns, as I understand will Typhoon. And both have a bring back capability in hotter climates...
If you're still in touch with the GR9 team then you should now the answer on the pods issue.
The SHAR is gone. It isn't coming back. Look forwards not backwards. Please ....
Tadge harsh on the Tornado and Jaguar banter. The Tornado has been on Ops almost continually since 1990 and the Jaguar must have spent a good period since 1990 doing the same. Both have guns, as I understand will Typhoon. And both have a bring back capability in hotter climates...
If you're still in touch with the GR9 team then you should now the answer on the pods issue.
The SHAR is gone. It isn't coming back. Look forwards not backwards. Please ....