A question for all.
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A question for all.
A question for all!
I joined the Royal Air Force in the early eighties. When I arrived on my first Sqn I was very much the new boy. It was my role to learn and take more rough than smooth. The trainers were roughly half way through their careers and the movers and shakers were nearing the end of theirs. There were high fliers but they were the exception. Most people on the Sqns had the opportunity to opt for this desk route if they wished, but the majority elected to stay on the ‘unofficial Sqn flying career’:
1.Whipping boy day one, sky God after beer day two, SDO day three.
2.At least first tour enjoying flying and not allowed anything more demanding than rations as a secondary duty. Possibly learn to fly.
3.Second tour trusted to amend AP’s. Not happy with the administrative burden this brings but really enjoying the flying.
4.Third tour surprised when new boys ask your advice. Become Sqn trainer.
5.Etc.
Sadly the ‘Sqn career’ is no longer available/appealing (I honestly would not know which to delete) to our new arrivals. They are expected/want to go straight to ‘high flier’ or point 4 by the end of their first tour.
Is my memory correct and if so does it matter? Or am I just a passed over ‘old git’ wistfully looking back on the good old days through rose tinted spectacles.
This is not a whinge, just a straight question. More importantly if you are a first tourist is the ‘Sqn career’ available to you and if not would it appeal? If you are well into your service do you think the Forces can operate this form of career or are we really so undermanned that from day one everyone needs to be able to perform the duties of SHQ whilst sorting out Sqn Ex/Ops commitments? Is this just an RAF thing?
I joined the Royal Air Force in the early eighties. When I arrived on my first Sqn I was very much the new boy. It was my role to learn and take more rough than smooth. The trainers were roughly half way through their careers and the movers and shakers were nearing the end of theirs. There were high fliers but they were the exception. Most people on the Sqns had the opportunity to opt for this desk route if they wished, but the majority elected to stay on the ‘unofficial Sqn flying career’:
1.Whipping boy day one, sky God after beer day two, SDO day three.
2.At least first tour enjoying flying and not allowed anything more demanding than rations as a secondary duty. Possibly learn to fly.
3.Second tour trusted to amend AP’s. Not happy with the administrative burden this brings but really enjoying the flying.
4.Third tour surprised when new boys ask your advice. Become Sqn trainer.
5.Etc.
Sadly the ‘Sqn career’ is no longer available/appealing (I honestly would not know which to delete) to our new arrivals. They are expected/want to go straight to ‘high flier’ or point 4 by the end of their first tour.
Is my memory correct and if so does it matter? Or am I just a passed over ‘old git’ wistfully looking back on the good old days through rose tinted spectacles.
This is not a whinge, just a straight question. More importantly if you are a first tourist is the ‘Sqn career’ available to you and if not would it appeal? If you are well into your service do you think the Forces can operate this form of career or are we really so undermanned that from day one everyone needs to be able to perform the duties of SHQ whilst sorting out Sqn Ex/Ops commitments? Is this just an RAF thing?
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Hmmmm
I think that the difference between now and then comes down to three things
A) Less people , more to do so no chance to spend 3 yrs working out a@£e from elbow.
2) No money for schools and hospitals so even less for us. Add that to Duty of Care, Health and Safety, Accountability and all the fun stuff is gone.
D) Society. People are marrying earlier, having kids earlier settling down etc. Pensions ARE an issue now and with house prices ridiculous it`s either MQ for 10 yrs explaining to the missus why you can`t remove that terrible 1960`s fireplace or get more money !
I think that the difference between now and then comes down to three things
A) Less people , more to do so no chance to spend 3 yrs working out a@£e from elbow.
2) No money for schools and hospitals so even less for us. Add that to Duty of Care, Health and Safety, Accountability and all the fun stuff is gone.
D) Society. People are marrying earlier, having kids earlier settling down etc. Pensions ARE an issue now and with house prices ridiculous it`s either MQ for 10 yrs explaining to the missus why you can`t remove that terrible 1960`s fireplace or get more money !
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M134, Well said and totally true:
A by product of your observations is that the young now have an expectation to be treated as seasoned veterans immediatley after qualifying Combat Ready.
The pendulem has overswung as I myself got the "You are not entitled to an opinion" in my first 6 months on a sqn, and I did know more about the recently installed GPS technology then the old gits did. (circa 1985)
Happily I learned from that and treat the new guys with a little more respect.
The situation M134 describes is not recoverable, it is here to stay. That everbody generally copes does not make it right.
A by product of your observations is that the young now have an expectation to be treated as seasoned veterans immediatley after qualifying Combat Ready.
The pendulem has overswung as I myself got the "You are not entitled to an opinion" in my first 6 months on a sqn, and I did know more about the recently installed GPS technology then the old gits did. (circa 1985)
Happily I learned from that and treat the new guys with a little more respect.
The situation M134 describes is not recoverable, it is here to stay. That everbody generally copes does not make it right.
First tourists these days ARE seasoned veterans. There's nobody else to do the endless Middle East tours, the Balkans etc. Once they've been in a war zone and been shot at they deserve and demand to be treated as more than the rations boy.
Anyway, with H and S, food safety, EEC mandated ''sneeze guards'' etc, does the average squadron still have a crew room with real food in it?
Anyway, with H and S, food safety, EEC mandated ''sneeze guards'' etc, does the average squadron still have a crew room with real food in it?
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FFP
You mean I should have left that where it was?! But it looks so much better in my garage
explaining to the missus why you can`t remove that terrible 1960`s fireplace
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What !!! You can`t move that ! It`s got that horrible stuff in it that`s carcogenic (sp?) !!
I found the tear stopper / sweetner was to put in a shower at our own expense to make up for the house and it`s retro interior !!
Even better were the off cuts of carpet in the bathroom / toilet. Upon seeing this sad bit of material, and the lack of any more in the other rooms, I assumed they were in the middle of updating them. But no ! I was in fact "lucky" to have them as the houses are not scaled to even have them !!!
Career. You can`t beat them so join them . . .
I found the tear stopper / sweetner was to put in a shower at our own expense to make up for the house and it`s retro interior !!
Even better were the off cuts of carpet in the bathroom / toilet. Upon seeing this sad bit of material, and the lack of any more in the other rooms, I assumed they were in the middle of updating them. But no ! I was in fact "lucky" to have them as the houses are not scaled to even have them !!!
Career. You can`t beat them so join them . . .
Last edited by FFP; 3rd Aug 2003 at 01:59.
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Maxburner
That our first tourists are often straight in the thick of it, and more importantly perform extremely well speaks volumes for our first tourists. If you feel I doubt that in any way that is merely down to my poor communication.
As for treating these guys and girls as “rations boys” you have missed my point. The average first tourist on the average sqn spends a great deal of his time managing a daunting portfolio of secondary duties. I joined the RAF to fly, had I wished to spend my time running projects various I would have selected an appropriate trade. I also remember that on arrival at my first Sqn I had a world of learning to do. Demanding secondary duties would have almost certainly meant that something would have had to give, maybe I’m just not that bright and was lucky to join when I did.
Hey Ho.
That our first tourists are often straight in the thick of it, and more importantly perform extremely well speaks volumes for our first tourists. If you feel I doubt that in any way that is merely down to my poor communication.
As for treating these guys and girls as “rations boys” you have missed my point. The average first tourist on the average sqn spends a great deal of his time managing a daunting portfolio of secondary duties. I joined the RAF to fly, had I wished to spend my time running projects various I would have selected an appropriate trade. I also remember that on arrival at my first Sqn I had a world of learning to do. Demanding secondary duties would have almost certainly meant that something would have had to give, maybe I’m just not that bright and was lucky to join when I did.
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I have heard rumours of people in the truckie fleet being told that they would not be recommended for captaincy etc, unless they were aiming to be staff officers; therefore secondary duties and general as$ kissing.Not real encouraging for those wanting to fly, and not perhaps clambour over everyone they know looking for the next promotion! Thoughts?
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I'ts not quite that bad, although we do have too many pilots on the AT fleet at the moment (by the shiny @rse brigade's measure's, not ours!). Alot of Co's have been sent to CFS of late and there is a general lack of Captain slots, but this is nothing new - we've always been left-seat heavy. What they are saying now is that there will be a drastic reduction in assimilation beyond 38/16 so competition for the available slots will be fierce, particularly now that PAS is active (and the airlines aren't recruiting much!)
Bottom line.........If the Firm can get away with shafting you, they will!
Bottom line.........If the Firm can get away with shafting you, they will!
Great for the CV
Flyboy,
Do you really think that the airlines aren't interested in the 'secondary duties and general as$ kissing' ?? The military is obviously just sweetening up all the Right Hand Seaters for alternative careers with Aeroflot and the like...
Those attributes will brighten up any CV. Who needs Captaincy time when you have these points highlighted?
Do you really think that the airlines aren't interested in the 'secondary duties and general as$ kissing' ?? The military is obviously just sweetening up all the Right Hand Seaters for alternative careers with Aeroflot and the like...
Those attributes will brighten up any CV. Who needs Captaincy time when you have these points highlighted?
M134, certainly not just a RAF thing; I must have been a contemporary of yours, but in the southern hemisphere.
Crazily enough, I considered flying to be my primary duty, and manoeuvered as best I could to keep it that way. Luckily, I managed to avoid the dreaded ground job for 20 years, a feat that I'm fairly proud of.
I've considered this issue from a few angles and still remain convinced that there must be a better way to afford our young aircrew a longer and more consistent flying career than is currently available, and rightly so.
As a civvie now, I'd really like to think that my tax dollars are being used to promote the best possible operational skills in our aircrew, rather than their abilities to dovetail seamlessly into the public service.
Particularly in military flying, aircrew need to be operators first and foremost, and anyone who loses sight of that needs a good kick up the arse.
Crazily enough, I considered flying to be my primary duty, and manoeuvered as best I could to keep it that way. Luckily, I managed to avoid the dreaded ground job for 20 years, a feat that I'm fairly proud of.
I've considered this issue from a few angles and still remain convinced that there must be a better way to afford our young aircrew a longer and more consistent flying career than is currently available, and rightly so.
As a civvie now, I'd really like to think that my tax dollars are being used to promote the best possible operational skills in our aircrew, rather than their abilities to dovetail seamlessly into the public service.
Particularly in military flying, aircrew need to be operators first and foremost, and anyone who loses sight of that needs a good kick up the arse.
Well, it's the last day of paid service for me today......
Have to agree with many of the comments above - but as for secondary duties, suggest that you find something you enjoy doing and secure that - then you're less likely to be shafted for O i/c Sqn triv. Try to get a stn secondary duty, then tell any Flt Cdr heading your way with an offer you can't refuse that sorry, your stn sec duty must come first!
In 30 years the worst I had was being i/c students' cold weather jackets at a UAS. Did fire officer and had a report written which showed how much needed to be done to get the building up to spec - so someone else then got shafted for that. Sqn sports officer? Moi?? A fully paid-up member of athletes anonymous (if you get the urge to go jockstrapping, phone a mate to talk you out of it!) - that meant just turning the enormous amount of dosh we were granted every year into something useful!
But JPs are still JPs!!
Have to agree with many of the comments above - but as for secondary duties, suggest that you find something you enjoy doing and secure that - then you're less likely to be shafted for O i/c Sqn triv. Try to get a stn secondary duty, then tell any Flt Cdr heading your way with an offer you can't refuse that sorry, your stn sec duty must come first!
In 30 years the worst I had was being i/c students' cold weather jackets at a UAS. Did fire officer and had a report written which showed how much needed to be done to get the building up to spec - so someone else then got shafted for that. Sqn sports officer? Moi?? A fully paid-up member of athletes anonymous (if you get the urge to go jockstrapping, phone a mate to talk you out of it!) - that meant just turning the enormous amount of dosh we were granted every year into something useful!
But JPs are still JPs!!
