Comments On Fairford 2003
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From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
As an organiser of the Gala dinner/hangar party I don't issue the tickets.
However, there are tickets allocated to the aircrew first, and then other units.
As a crew, you will be given a number of tickets and these are to be distributed by your det commander I assume. Oddly enough I was approached during the party by an irate driver for one of the VIP's. He was part of an AAC det who's OC had taken all the tickets back from the groundcrew to invite friends, asking me if I could refuse entry to those.
Unfortunately, there is no way we can get everyone a ticket. The simple fact is that the hangar is only licensed by the base fire chiefs for 2500 max. We simply cannot get every one in. I (and the bar staff) would love to allow more in.
Also - I know it is pants that we are pulling the plug in the evening at 2330Hrs. The party is just beginning - but this is due to:
1. The bus drivers not running out of hours when delivering you back to your hotels
2. You are mostly flying the next day and it wouldn't be good for RIAT or the party sponsers to be pooring drink down your neck until the early hours - especially if there was an incident!
I know many friends who work for RIAT full time. I can't think of any one of them who is overpaid. As I said earlier, if you saw just how much work they do, and not only for the airshow which is only part of their year, you wouldn't do it for all the tea in China!!
However, there are tickets allocated to the aircrew first, and then other units.
As a crew, you will be given a number of tickets and these are to be distributed by your det commander I assume. Oddly enough I was approached during the party by an irate driver for one of the VIP's. He was part of an AAC det who's OC had taken all the tickets back from the groundcrew to invite friends, asking me if I could refuse entry to those.
Unfortunately, there is no way we can get everyone a ticket. The simple fact is that the hangar is only licensed by the base fire chiefs for 2500 max. We simply cannot get every one in. I (and the bar staff) would love to allow more in.
Also - I know it is pants that we are pulling the plug in the evening at 2330Hrs. The party is just beginning - but this is due to:
1. The bus drivers not running out of hours when delivering you back to your hotels
2. You are mostly flying the next day and it wouldn't be good for RIAT or the party sponsers to be pooring drink down your neck until the early hours - especially if there was an incident!
I know many friends who work for RIAT full time. I can't think of any one of them who is overpaid. As I said earlier, if you saw just how much work they do, and not only for the airshow which is only part of their year, you wouldn't do it for all the tea in China!!
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: England
OK, just to put this thing to bed:
4 x groundcrew. All names passed several days before along with mine and other aircrew member. All accomodated together. All given same passess throughout weekend. Told categorically groundcrew couldn't have tickets.
How they got into that party I just don't know.
4 x groundcrew. All names passed several days before along with mine and other aircrew member. All accomodated together. All given same passess throughout weekend. Told categorically groundcrew couldn't have tickets.
How they got into that party I just don't know.
Joined: May 2001
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From: Wild Blue Yonder
A330 FSTA
BEagle
l
So, "the tanking bits don't make much difference." Hmmm! The integration of the pod and pylon is crucial - just try telling that to the Marines (US) and the cottage industry from Dorset!
l
So, "the tanking bits don't make much difference." Hmmm! The integration of the pod and pylon is crucial - just try telling that to the Marines (US) and the cottage industry from Dorset!
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
G4B - whereas that lot down by the river aren't having any problems with IPRs, are they? There is a fair bit of maskirovka being put about regarding the -900; 'not invented here', perhaps?
Not pleasant to read that a certain aircraft manufacturer has allegedly been 'punished for spying' by the USAF........................
Not pleasant to read that a certain aircraft manufacturer has allegedly been 'punished for spying' by the USAF........................
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Lincs
Paul, Tim - Gentlemen,
I was at RIAT (again) this year, but sadly it will be my last visit.
I was so disapointed with virtually everything there.
It was laid out poorly, the flying was poor, the lack of facilities were deplorable, the cost was too high plus the lack of toilets, rubbish bins blah.
All I could see were lots of aircraft (some very interesting ones) that were roped off with miles of blue rope. Why were they not roped off individually? to allow us to walk through them, and get to other areas instead of having to walk miles to get anywhere??
The 100 years of flight was great, (and the tribute to the Navy Firefly crew was a very nice touch) but why were we not able to get across to the trade sites on the far side of the taxi way when we came out of the 100 yrs exit? If we wanted to get over there, we would have had to walk literally miles!
Very poor RIAT - sorry. Prices were too high, and the time and distance to and from the car parks were a joke.
You will have to pull your finger out to get the public back, although this years' poor attendance pretty much says it all.
Finally, why is it that RIAT gives such a paltry sum to the Ben fund each year compared to say...em Waddo or Leuchars??
Could it be the overheads? or maybe the whole thing is a bit too 'top heavy' with retired airships?? Maybe it's the cost of all those post airshow parties? the ones the aircrew and groundcrew are NOT invited to?? Infact, why don't you publish some of the accounts here on PPrune ??
End of rant, night night
Best wishes
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, please cross RIAT off next years airshow list, there's a good chap!'
I was at RIAT (again) this year, but sadly it will be my last visit.
I was so disapointed with virtually everything there.
It was laid out poorly, the flying was poor, the lack of facilities were deplorable, the cost was too high plus the lack of toilets, rubbish bins blah.
All I could see were lots of aircraft (some very interesting ones) that were roped off with miles of blue rope. Why were they not roped off individually? to allow us to walk through them, and get to other areas instead of having to walk miles to get anywhere??
The 100 years of flight was great, (and the tribute to the Navy Firefly crew was a very nice touch) but why were we not able to get across to the trade sites on the far side of the taxi way when we came out of the 100 yrs exit? If we wanted to get over there, we would have had to walk literally miles!
Very poor RIAT - sorry. Prices were too high, and the time and distance to and from the car parks were a joke.
You will have to pull your finger out to get the public back, although this years' poor attendance pretty much says it all.
Finally, why is it that RIAT gives such a paltry sum to the Ben fund each year compared to say...em Waddo or Leuchars??
Could it be the overheads? or maybe the whole thing is a bit too 'top heavy' with retired airships?? Maybe it's the cost of all those post airshow parties? the ones the aircrew and groundcrew are NOT invited to?? Infact, why don't you publish some of the accounts here on PPrune ??
End of rant, night night
Best wishes
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, please cross RIAT off next years airshow list, there's a good chap!'
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From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
Maybe it's the cost of all those post airshow parties? the ones the aircrew and groundcrew are NOT invited to??
Well - as you know the Gala Dinner and the Sunday Night Party are sponsored events (BAe and EADS respectively this year). Previous big names include RR and Lockheed Martin.
The aircrew have their own big extravagant party on Sunday night. All of the half empty bottles of alcohol (which cannot be taken back as part of the sale return agreement of course) are sent for the remainder of the volunteers to drink on the Monday night. The same is said for the food I believe and entertainment is by way of a disco.
Simple as that. Are their other parties I haven't been invited too then?!?!!?
How much do the other shows raise for the fund ?
I know Paul and Tim would be more than happy to receive your comments in writing if you have any suggestions on improving the show in any aspect.
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Lincs
AlanM,
Paul and Tim take no notice of anyone's comments.
Thats why we have the same recurrant problems every year........
cost, toilets ad nausium!!
As for how much the others raise.... well I can tell you that Waddo DONATE a great deal more to the Ben fund than RIAT does! so how does that work........
Come on Paul and/or Tim Explain it for us simple mortals, theres good chaps.
Lastly, I know it's a sensitive point, but look at all the 'freebies' that are given away by RIAT. Yes I know it's for kids but.......
who needs it most? I would suggest that the Ben fund does - sorry kids.
Regards
The swinging Monkey
Paul and Tim take no notice of anyone's comments.
Thats why we have the same recurrant problems every year........
cost, toilets ad nausium!!
As for how much the others raise.... well I can tell you that Waddo DONATE a great deal more to the Ben fund than RIAT does! so how does that work........
Come on Paul and/or Tim Explain it for us simple mortals, theres good chaps.
Lastly, I know it's a sensitive point, but look at all the 'freebies' that are given away by RIAT. Yes I know it's for kids but.......
who needs it most? I would suggest that the Ben fund does - sorry kids.
Regards
The swinging Monkey
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From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
TSM
But without the kids clearing up/providing manpower/doing the FOD plod there would be no show. Therefore a few sponsored hats/T shirts is small fry.
So who staffs the Waddo show? - I have never been. Who does all the menial jobs?
But without the kids clearing up/providing manpower/doing the FOD plod there would be no show. Therefore a few sponsored hats/T shirts is small fry.
So who staffs the Waddo show? - I have never been. Who does all the menial jobs?
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Lincs
Alan,
Everyone staffs it, from Harry the Staish to the lowliest of the low - including all the aircrew.
I know the ATC and others do a great job, and I'm not knocking them, but........
the Ben fund is in a poor state, lets give the money to those who really need it eh? even for just a couple of years until the fund is back on its feet.
And there would still be a show, even without the freebies - after all, they get a free entrance to a £30.00+ a day airshow!!
Regards
The Swinging Monkey
Everyone staffs it, from Harry the Staish to the lowliest of the low - including all the aircrew.
I know the ATC and others do a great job, and I'm not knocking them, but........
the Ben fund is in a poor state, lets give the money to those who really need it eh? even for just a couple of years until the fund is back on its feet.
And there would still be a show, even without the freebies - after all, they get a free entrance to a £30.00+ a day airshow!!
Regards
The Swinging Monkey
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
TSM,
I (kinda) agree with what you are saying.
I would guess that RIAT no longer gets the amount of support (in terms of manpower/equipment) that it used to receive from the Military.
An example would be the vehicles. When I started at RIAT I was given an RAF landrover to use. Obviously, a lot of volunteers are now civilians so that is unworkable. This year my vehicle was a rented Punto. There used to be lots of trainees used to help build the site on det from Halton etc. That has stopped. (Before you say anything - I can understand that, esp with the number of other Ops the boys and girls are on)
There are lots of ways that RIAT could save money. However, you need to look at what is donated by the RAFBF Enterprise as a whole - and see that the air show - whilst not a loss leader - is very much the show piece. A lot of additional revenue is gained from the Aviation Catalogue/Annual concert tours etc.
To sum: I think it is unfair to equate the two shows in financial gain/show costs.
I (kinda) agree with what you are saying.
I would guess that RIAT no longer gets the amount of support (in terms of manpower/equipment) that it used to receive from the Military.
An example would be the vehicles. When I started at RIAT I was given an RAF landrover to use. Obviously, a lot of volunteers are now civilians so that is unworkable. This year my vehicle was a rented Punto. There used to be lots of trainees used to help build the site on det from Halton etc. That has stopped. (Before you say anything - I can understand that, esp with the number of other Ops the boys and girls are on)
There are lots of ways that RIAT could save money. However, you need to look at what is donated by the RAFBF Enterprise as a whole - and see that the air show - whilst not a loss leader - is very much the show piece. A lot of additional revenue is gained from the Aviation Catalogue/Annual concert tours etc.
To sum: I think it is unfair to equate the two shows in financial gain/show costs.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Northants, UK
If as our simian friend suggests Waddington, (with its attendance of a quarter or so of RIAT I think - and ticket prices of less than half), donates more to charity than RIAT, then regardless of the reasoning for this disparity I wish the RIAT defenders would stop using the 'It's all for charity' response whenever anyone knocks any aspect of the show.
But I really would love to know if this disparity exists for real, where does all RIAT's money go? If the parties, t-shirts, baseball caps etc. are all sponsored, come on, tell us all where the money goes... I hear less than 50p a ticket ends up in the RAFBF coffers!
But I really would love to know if this disparity exists for real, where does all RIAT's money go? If the parties, t-shirts, baseball caps etc. are all sponsored, come on, tell us all where the money goes... I hear less than 50p a ticket ends up in the RAFBF coffers!
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
DB
I think the major difference is in the fact that the Waddo show is in effect in-house. Therefore the overhead costs are bound to be cheaper.
Also - don't forget that RIAT has no home as such. I am sure that the insurance costs for lodging at a USAF base as opposed to your own base are far greater. (not least becaude of the war and the security consequences).
As I keep saying - RIAT is the showpiece and the launch platform for other RAFBFE fundraising. RIAT has NEVER been a huge earner for the fund.
Either way - you have to think of it as a whole: At least they are putting SOME money in - and all the crews get to have a great time, do they not?
We could ask the public to simply drive past the gates and put a tenner in a bucket - now that would raise some money but be a whole lot less fun.
I think the major difference is in the fact that the Waddo show is in effect in-house. Therefore the overhead costs are bound to be cheaper.
Also - don't forget that RIAT has no home as such. I am sure that the insurance costs for lodging at a USAF base as opposed to your own base are far greater. (not least becaude of the war and the security consequences).
As I keep saying - RIAT is the showpiece and the launch platform for other RAFBFE fundraising. RIAT has NEVER been a huge earner for the fund.
Either way - you have to think of it as a whole: At least they are putting SOME money in - and all the crews get to have a great time, do they not?
We could ask the public to simply drive past the gates and put a tenner in a bucket - now that would raise some money but be a whole lot less fun.
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From: Lincs
Alan,
I hate to harp on old chap, but you really are missing the point. As Damian asks..where does all the money go?? that is all people like me want to know.
I have had the honour to be involved in Waddo's show, and Damian is quite correct - the prices are much less than half of RIATs and the attendance is probably less than a quarter of a 'good' RIAT. Therefore, we must ask the question....'why does RIAT give such a paltry amount to its 'own' RAFBF charity?'
The overheads are NO cheaper for Waddo (are you suggesting that RIAT pays the RAF/USAF for use of the base??!!)
The insurance is just the same. And let me tell you that the crews DO NOT get a great time! Believe me, whenever my Sqn was ordered to take a jet to RIAT, trying to find a crew was not easy - aircrew DID NOT WANT TO GO!! It was a great deal of nauseous hassle quite frankly.
Now, we can argue about T-shirts and baseball caps and other freebies all day long, and I will concede that in the overall scheme of things, it is NOT a lot of money. But that only adds further weight to my question of 'where does all the money go?'
As for your comment about putting at least 'some money in' well quite frankly thats an appalling statement. It's not what goes into the fund that is in question here....it's what DOES NOT go into the fund that needs addressing, and I don't see or hear anyone from RIAT coming forth to tell us, do you?
Enough said, I feel sad that RIAT has done so badly this year, but it is all of their own making. I only hope that the rot can be halted, and the whole event doesn't die.
Rant over
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, a very large glass of the Famous amber fluid I think'
I hate to harp on old chap, but you really are missing the point. As Damian asks..where does all the money go?? that is all people like me want to know.
I have had the honour to be involved in Waddo's show, and Damian is quite correct - the prices are much less than half of RIATs and the attendance is probably less than a quarter of a 'good' RIAT. Therefore, we must ask the question....'why does RIAT give such a paltry amount to its 'own' RAFBF charity?'
The overheads are NO cheaper for Waddo (are you suggesting that RIAT pays the RAF/USAF for use of the base??!!)
The insurance is just the same. And let me tell you that the crews DO NOT get a great time! Believe me, whenever my Sqn was ordered to take a jet to RIAT, trying to find a crew was not easy - aircrew DID NOT WANT TO GO!! It was a great deal of nauseous hassle quite frankly.
Now, we can argue about T-shirts and baseball caps and other freebies all day long, and I will concede that in the overall scheme of things, it is NOT a lot of money. But that only adds further weight to my question of 'where does all the money go?'
As for your comment about putting at least 'some money in' well quite frankly thats an appalling statement. It's not what goes into the fund that is in question here....it's what DOES NOT go into the fund that needs addressing, and I don't see or hear anyone from RIAT coming forth to tell us, do you?
Enough said, I feel sad that RIAT has done so badly this year, but it is all of their own making. I only hope that the rot can be halted, and the whole event doesn't die.
Rant over
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, a very large glass of the Famous amber fluid I think'
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: West Sussex
TSM
Not a scribley, so could be talking utter rubbish, but surely the RIAT organisation must be regestered as a Limited Company at the least (if not a PLC), and therefore they should have to submit their end of year accounts to Companies House, who in turn have an obligation to make them available to the general public.
SS
Not a scribley, so could be talking utter rubbish, but surely the RIAT organisation must be regestered as a Limited Company at the least (if not a PLC), and therefore they should have to submit their end of year accounts to Companies House, who in turn have an obligation to make them available to the general public.
SS
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 764
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From: UK
TSM et al,
There have been several comments made such as "The flying was poor". If you can provide more details then perhaps something can be done to improve it. Specifically, do you mean the organistaion of the flying programme or the execution of individual displays? Examplea please.
There have been several comments made such as "The flying was poor". If you can provide more details then perhaps something can be done to improve it. Specifically, do you mean the organistaion of the flying programme or the execution of individual displays? Examplea please.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 667
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From: Northants, UK
LOMCEVAK - I couldn't disagree more strongly with the 'flying was poor' bit - the flying was on the whole highly entertaining, though the MiG-29 was put on too early as nobody could hold a candle to him for sheer enjoyment though the Typhoon came close.
What was poor was the gaps between each act - in the past you'd have the next act already in the air or holding near the end of the runway when the previous act finishes, not so this year. Often it seemed the next act was hiding behind a hangar somewhere, would meander lazily towards the runway and then sit there for a few minutes to boot.
The schedule was not held to very well (particularly on Sunday when it seemed nobody had any idea what was next, and the published programme was pure fiction) either. If you're just camped out watching the flying that doesn't matter so much but if you wanted to see the static and picked a time of day that didn't have anything flying of interest to you, you were bound to find your favourite act taking to the air just at the point you were 2 miles away from the crowdline and knee deep in rivet counters. No doubt the schedule changes were out of anybody's control but there were just so many of them!
I have heard others moan that the display did not include a wide enough representation of the 100 years of flight theme - I wasn't that bothered, RIAT's always been more about jet noise than prop jobs. But it'd have been nice to see some formations to mark the theme - Spitfire & Typhoon perhaps, Gnat & Hawk, Sea Fury, Sea Vixen & Sea Harrier (I can dream!), etc. With so many F-16s and Tornados in the display the lack of other types did show up a bit.
Sounds like quite a moan that lot but overall I enjoyed the show a lot and none of the flying was 'poor'!
What was poor was the gaps between each act - in the past you'd have the next act already in the air or holding near the end of the runway when the previous act finishes, not so this year. Often it seemed the next act was hiding behind a hangar somewhere, would meander lazily towards the runway and then sit there for a few minutes to boot.
The schedule was not held to very well (particularly on Sunday when it seemed nobody had any idea what was next, and the published programme was pure fiction) either. If you're just camped out watching the flying that doesn't matter so much but if you wanted to see the static and picked a time of day that didn't have anything flying of interest to you, you were bound to find your favourite act taking to the air just at the point you were 2 miles away from the crowdline and knee deep in rivet counters. No doubt the schedule changes were out of anybody's control but there were just so many of them!
I have heard others moan that the display did not include a wide enough representation of the 100 years of flight theme - I wasn't that bothered, RIAT's always been more about jet noise than prop jobs. But it'd have been nice to see some formations to mark the theme - Spitfire & Typhoon perhaps, Gnat & Hawk, Sea Fury, Sea Vixen & Sea Harrier (I can dream!), etc. With so many F-16s and Tornados in the display the lack of other types did show up a bit.
Sounds like quite a moan that lot but overall I enjoyed the show a lot and none of the flying was 'poor'!
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Middle East
Bahhh Humbug!
Least you got there to comment on how much fun you did or didn't have!
Waaaagggghhhh! My spotting days are over....off to Pat Pong Road or Wan Chai instead, forgive me for I am about to sin!
Waaaagggghhhh! My spotting days are over....off to Pat Pong Road or Wan Chai instead, forgive me for I am about to sin!
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 764
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From: UK
DamienB,
Thank you very much for your constructive comments - they most certainly do not come across as a moan. I will make sure that your comments are passed on. And thank you for the outstanding pictures of RIAT that you have posted on another thread, the Frecce Tricolore ones in particular! Any of the Patrouille de France?
Best Regards
L
Thank you very much for your constructive comments - they most certainly do not come across as a moan. I will make sure that your comments are passed on. And thank you for the outstanding pictures of RIAT that you have posted on another thread, the Frecce Tricolore ones in particular! Any of the Patrouille de France?
Best Regards
L