Kipper fleet macho, chauvinist and tribal
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STS - thank you for that post - it is great to have the female perspective upon this.
I recall from my time in the RAF that female aircrew are just as likely to be subjected to prefferential treatment as discrimination (does anyone of the F3 fleet remember xxxxxxxx?). Ladies being given preferential treatment thyrough the training sytem is just as harmful as the "he looked at me - sexual harrasment" type.
Let anyone who can do the job do it (age, race, gender, sexual orientation unimportant) and let anyone who can not find an alternative career.
moggie--no names, not even "slightly disguised" ones -- McD
I recall from my time in the RAF that female aircrew are just as likely to be subjected to prefferential treatment as discrimination (does anyone of the F3 fleet remember xxxxxxxx?). Ladies being given preferential treatment thyrough the training sytem is just as harmful as the "he looked at me - sexual harrasment" type.
Let anyone who can do the job do it (age, race, gender, sexual orientation unimportant) and let anyone who can not find an alternative career.
moggie--no names, not even "slightly disguised" ones -- McD
Last edited by McD; 18th Aug 2003 at 21:38.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
The better of the three press reports online: RAF pilot wins sex bias payout
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I was at ISK at the time and remember this one well! Biggus' post is spot on!
Also, the Senior Officer concerned was rewarded for his sh499ing prowess and promoted!! Me however, for sh499ing a single, unmarried woman and getting caught - carpeted, formal warning etc etc!
Perhaps I was just better at it so I had a worse punishment!!!!
;-)
Thankfully, there now seems to be a decent calibre of lady aviator at ISK and many of my femail friends in the Service give and take as much banter as the blokes. What the namby-pamby world of political correctness seems to forget is that my job is to kill people whenever President Tony says so. In doing so some bu99er is likely to try and kill me - kind of makes you look at life with a sense of humour - if you can't take the banter and, more importantly, give it back you are the wrong person to come to war with me. If you break down in tears because you get called a name then sod off and join the flower arranging course at the local college.
Perhaps the PC advertising campaign should be dropped, then we might get real people to do a real job!
Rant ends!
Also, the Senior Officer concerned was rewarded for his sh499ing prowess and promoted!! Me however, for sh499ing a single, unmarried woman and getting caught - carpeted, formal warning etc etc!
Perhaps I was just better at it so I had a worse punishment!!!!
;-)
Thankfully, there now seems to be a decent calibre of lady aviator at ISK and many of my femail friends in the Service give and take as much banter as the blokes. What the namby-pamby world of political correctness seems to forget is that my job is to kill people whenever President Tony says so. In doing so some bu99er is likely to try and kill me - kind of makes you look at life with a sense of humour - if you can't take the banter and, more importantly, give it back you are the wrong person to come to war with me. If you break down in tears because you get called a name then sod off and join the flower arranging course at the local college.
Perhaps the PC advertising campaign should be dropped, then we might get real people to do a real job!
Rant ends!
I am just a bit confused here. Am I not right in thinking that the whole idea of aircrew is that we are employed on FLYING duties. Firstly, I dont think 9 months a year away on the VC10 fleet is accurate but also why should any Pilot, male or female, get away with refusing a posting. What would the service say to a male aircrew chap who said he wouldn't take a particular posting because he had a young family. Just what multi engine flying tour does she think would suit her? As for compensation figures the rumour mill suggests a much higher figure. I think the 15K mentioned above is only part of the story.
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I thought that she'd already had some - money that is! Is she stirring it up again for more? Maybe another sprog on the way!
I firmly believe that certain males were discriminated against in the late 80's. Female pilot studes seemed to get an awful lot more flex then the males - maybe they should file a law suit as well!!!
I thought that she'd already had some - money that is! Is she stirring it up again for more? Maybe another sprog on the way!
I firmly believe that certain males were discriminated against in the late 80's. Female pilot studes seemed to get an awful lot more flex then the males - maybe they should file a law suit as well!!!
Wish she would get a life and accept that she was not up to the job - not because she was a woman but just because!
I firmly believe that certain males were discriminated against in the late 80's. Female pilot studes seemed to get an awful lot more flex then the males - maybe they should file a law suit as well!!!
I thought that she'd already had some - money that is! Is she stirring it up again for more? Maybe another sprog on the way!
I firmly believe that certain males were discriminated against in the late 80's. Female pilot studes seemed to get an awful lot more flex then the males - maybe they should file a law suit as well!!!
Wish she would get a life and accept that she was not up to the job - not because she was a woman but just because!
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For a memorial look around us...
I am astounded by many of the posts on this thread. The Tribunal has upheld the substantive claims of the complainant and have awarded compensation accordingly. Her personal (off-duty/off det behaviour) are of no accord in this case. The behaviour of her fellow 'professionals' is shameful and as as one who was 'maritime' (albeit in NZ in the 1980s), the crew's behaviour (as described in the complaint) was all too familiar. For example, I recall porn being played on the data handling system and some pretty disgusting behaviour amongst an all-male crew; behaviour which would result in immediate dismissal in most organisations. Such behaviour of individuals constituting a crew is not acceptable (was it ever?) and the sad ravings by predominantly rear crew reinforce the image of a Dinosaur mentality locked in world of Sgts' Messes and 'saucy' sea-side post cards.
Moreover you cannot necessarily protest your innocence by 'proving' the guilt of others:
If this is so, then let the Courts decide.
Grow up, Guys.
Moreover you cannot necessarily protest your innocence by 'proving' the guilt of others:
I firmly believe that certain males were discriminated against in the late 80's. Female pilot studes seemed to get an awful lot more flex then the males - maybe they should file a law suit as well!!!
Grow up, Guys.
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European CrashDirty knocker types watching porn. Wow, no one else in the world watches porn now do they. Do you work for a politically correct organisation where everyone has group hugs and dresses down on a Friday to encourage corporate spirit?
We are in a military organisation after all where banter and humour which is close to the edge is prevelant. Perhaps I should swap my uniform for a flowered dress.
I never knew the female involved but I have seen loads like her. Sounds like she was clever enough to screw the system in order to cover up her problems.
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Vage
Couldn't agree more with the PC line. Not sure how much money she got the first time around but surely this is obviously just a way of getting a bit more out of the situation. Didn't get enough the first time then. Apparently she was offered an out of court for about £0.3M but refused it hoping for the big £1M.
Euro
I believe the tribunal actually only upheld her complaint on something like 3 cases rejecting 8 of the 11 complaints. As per the last section of the article in the papers. As for her behaviour with her married instructor......well. She and he should have been kicked out for that (eyes down for a second debate on adultary in the military).
Couldn't agree more with the PC line. Not sure how much money she got the first time around but surely this is obviously just a way of getting a bit more out of the situation. Didn't get enough the first time then. Apparently she was offered an out of court for about £0.3M but refused it hoping for the big £1M.
Euro
I believe the tribunal actually only upheld her complaint on something like 3 cases rejecting 8 of the 11 complaints. As per the last section of the article in the papers. As for her behaviour with her married instructor......well. She and he should have been kicked out for that (eyes down for a second debate on adultary in the military).
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Euro,
Not as you suggest at all old boy!
I for one would gladly serve in a highly PC RAF. Smile at everyone, tollerate those who are not up to the job and never mind that they might kill me with their incompetance. After all, we should really put up with other peoples' failings as we are not all perfect are we? Also, when the bullets start to fly, it will be "after you old chap!" "No, I insist, after you!"
This is not about male/female discrimination. This is about someone that didn't have the right mentality to do a job of war, someone that couldn't cope with the banter and someone that was clever enough to exploit the system for her own ends. Moreover, she wasted £3m of training by becomming preggers just after she finished the OCU. Perhaps the MoD would like to recover that at 5 days pay a month!!
Discrimination is not right but it is a fact of life. I get banter about my specs - can I have £15K please - it's making my life hell. NOT. I just retaliate and it's all a bit of fun (I hope!!)
any spoolung mesteaks are RANT induced!
Not as you suggest at all old boy!
I for one would gladly serve in a highly PC RAF. Smile at everyone, tollerate those who are not up to the job and never mind that they might kill me with their incompetance. After all, we should really put up with other peoples' failings as we are not all perfect are we? Also, when the bullets start to fly, it will be "after you old chap!" "No, I insist, after you!"
This is not about male/female discrimination. This is about someone that didn't have the right mentality to do a job of war, someone that couldn't cope with the banter and someone that was clever enough to exploit the system for her own ends. Moreover, she wasted £3m of training by becomming preggers just after she finished the OCU. Perhaps the MoD would like to recover that at 5 days pay a month!!
Discrimination is not right but it is a fact of life. I get banter about my specs - can I have £15K please - it's making my life hell. NOT. I just retaliate and it's all a bit of fun (I hope!!)
any spoolung mesteaks are RANT induced!
I am glad to see that I am not aone in views here. I reckon we have Mrs A ( actually Mrs B but we all knew that all along) summed up. I dont know how she got her posting to ISK but my ex kipper fleet colleagues all say she was cr@p. No mention of the fact that she did the OCU twice. Also can anyone up north confirm the story that she called abort above V1 and a fair amount of damage. If so why not send her the bill. I think the trouble with all of these Tribunals is that they know little of the Services and cannot easily tell if the claimant is just plain lying. Of course if the service defended a bit better then things might be different. Quite agree about the adultery the bit they should both have been dealt with. Cant agree at all with you Euro.
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Vasco,
Re aborted take-off.
During the take-off run the handling pilot flys and the eng and the non-handling pilot monitor the engine. Above V1 the flying pilot should have had both hands on the 'stick', in order to prevent aborting after V1. (Like we used to practise in the Sim regularly)
For those not used to the term V1 it is effectively the position on the runway, related to a speed, before which there is not enough room to take-off following an engine failure and after which there is not enough room to stop.
That was good enough for me before anyone gets pedantic.
Re aborted take-off.
During the take-off run the handling pilot flys and the eng and the non-handling pilot monitor the engine. Above V1 the flying pilot should have had both hands on the 'stick', in order to prevent aborting after V1. (Like we used to practise in the Sim regularly)
For those not used to the term V1 it is effectively the position on the runway, related to a speed, before which there is not enough room to take-off following an engine failure and after which there is not enough room to stop.
That was good enough for me before anyone gets pedantic.
kippermate
Thanks for your input but I know exactly what it is all about. The procedures vary slightly between different ac but the principles are the same. Notwithstanding the safeguards referred to there are still f**k ups on all ac. The question is did it occur with Mrs B or not?
Thanks for your input but I know exactly what it is all about. The procedures vary slightly between different ac but the principles are the same. Notwithstanding the safeguards referred to there are still f**k ups on all ac. The question is did it occur with Mrs B or not?
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Just coming up to my 38 point and have realised that after 20 years of dets to hot places I have a craving for the sun. Problem is that when I leave I won't be able to afford to spend circa 7 months a year in the sun and playing in the sand! How do I get the MoD to pay me compensation now that THEY have got me so used to the sun??
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I was on the aircraft when we aborted above v1, taxied back to the pan, got on another aircraft and did the sortie. It was on the OCU, one of the early ocean phase trips and she was the non-handling pilot. The Captain who was the handling pilot got away with it and we never worked out how.
She was a poor pilot and was held behind for more flying but she did not do a second OCU. Her boyfriend was an instructor on the OCU but a different branch!
For my sins I went to the same sqn as she did but a different crew. In fact I was on the crew she joined to be given her last chance. Apparently we were told to be "nice" to her, but we weren't, we were just a girlie PC crew because our average age was older and we were more grown-up. We also already had a female nav who told us some of the stuff that happened, and although most of it was banter or just taking the mickey some of it was totally out of order!!
She was a poor pilot and was held behind for more flying but she did not do a second OCU. Her boyfriend was an instructor on the OCU but a different branch!
For my sins I went to the same sqn as she did but a different crew. In fact I was on the crew she joined to be given her last chance. Apparently we were told to be "nice" to her, but we weren't, we were just a girlie PC crew because our average age was older and we were more grown-up. We also already had a female nav who told us some of the stuff that happened, and although most of it was banter or just taking the mickey some of it was totally out of order!!
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I read an article in one of the tabloids yesterday written by a woman.
I was delighted to see that even women think this is a load of BLX.
When i pay my taxes I would like to see the money spent on buying protective equipment and ammunition for guys who need it and not on settling ridiculous legal battles. I think the MOD needs to take a serious look at how it handles its personnel (a fact highlighted by the Dr kelly affair) and probably think about hiring some better lawyers given their track record .
i have an old fashioned view on women in combat and this isn't going to do anything to win me over the the PC side. The problem here is that women are less likely (as opposed to 'not able') to fit into an environment where comradari(i aint gonna try and spell it properly
) is essentail. unfortunately the MOD is more interested in giving out a PC image than in building an efficient fighting force. i'm not saying women should be kicked out of the military, but they should not be forced unto the armed forces and extra caution should be exercised when recruiting them. Women have certain natural charcteristics that may be a disadvantageous to the in a military setting but make them excel in other environments e.g. academic studies, customer services and even certain areas of management.
Occasionally we do get the odd Xena
and i don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to serve in the military. i do acknowledge that some of the best servicemen(no pun intended) are female and i have nothing but respect and admiration for them.
My views may not be totally PC cos i'm not a PC person so forgive me for any offence i might have caused.
Capt. manuvar ( off to do a bit of seal-bashing)
I was delighted to see that even women think this is a load of BLX.
When i pay my taxes I would like to see the money spent on buying protective equipment and ammunition for guys who need it and not on settling ridiculous legal battles. I think the MOD needs to take a serious look at how it handles its personnel (a fact highlighted by the Dr kelly affair) and probably think about hiring some better lawyers given their track record
.i have an old fashioned view on women in combat and this isn't going to do anything to win me over the the PC side. The problem here is that women are less likely (as opposed to 'not able') to fit into an environment where comradari(i aint gonna try and spell it properly
) is essentail. unfortunately the MOD is more interested in giving out a PC image than in building an efficient fighting force. i'm not saying women should be kicked out of the military, but they should not be forced unto the armed forces and extra caution should be exercised when recruiting them. Women have certain natural charcteristics that may be a disadvantageous to the in a military setting but make them excel in other environments e.g. academic studies, customer services and even certain areas of management.Occasionally we do get the odd Xena
and i don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to serve in the military. i do acknowledge that some of the best servicemen(no pun intended) are female and i have nothing but respect and admiration for them.My views may not be totally PC cos i'm not a PC person so forgive me for any offence i might have caused.
Capt. manuvar ( off to do a bit of seal-bashing)