CO 1 Royal Irish
I have a feeling that Robert Fox is about to do just that. He was pretty scathing about the shabbiness of the whole thing when interviewed on Radio 2 this lunch time, and made a few interesting remarks about attempts to destroy evidence in A-10 incident. He also made some fairly pithy references to shooting PWs as well.
The Beeb News 24 review of the front pages for today showed that only the Grauniad and Indy weren't giving this prominence; all those that were have gone with the 'Colonel Tim stitched up by small-minded yank officer' approach - including the Mirror.
Suspect that the jealous little toad who started this off (assuming that the media haven't made that up...) may have cunningly ensured that the British media are about to declare open season on the US Army and USMC...
May I join you in seething?
The Beeb News 24 review of the front pages for today showed that only the Grauniad and Indy weren't giving this prominence; all those that were have gone with the 'Colonel Tim stitched up by small-minded yank officer' approach - including the Mirror.
Suspect that the jealous little toad who started this off (assuming that the media haven't made that up...) may have cunningly ensured that the British media are about to declare open season on the US Army and USMC...
May I join you in seething?
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To be fair, this is no less malicious than the Belgian lawyer trying to get Tommy Franks and other officers in the dock for alleged war crimes committed against Iraqi ambulances and government buildings. The politically inspired nature of that case is outrageous, as is the pretense of Belgian law to universal jurisdiction of all war crimes.
Having said that, pistol-whipping some local flunky (even if true) is obviously a much less serious offense than the USMC gunnery sargeant accused of executing POW's.
Having said that, pistol-whipping some local flunky (even if true) is obviously a much less serious offense than the USMC gunnery sargeant accused of executing POW's.
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Correct me if Im wrong but...... I dont think the good ol' USofA is a signatory to the World Court....and as such, although any Americans accused of War Crimes can be tried (in their absence) they will not be held accountable in the US, nor is the US abiliged to hand them over. (Please if you know more about this correct me)
Sadly for CO1 RA this is not the UKs stance - moreover, this allows the yanks to throw stones in very small glass houses and get away with as many accusations as they wish:
a. without being accountable,
b. without fear of recrimination,
and to, if it suits their political agenda, make up anything they want.
This accusation, factual or not opens a huge can of worms politically between the US and UK. Sadly, a mere Col maybe the scapegoat. After all it happened to Col. Ollie North.
While on a anti-US rant.... I read in the paper today, an Iraqi doctor claiming the US SF's used only blank ammunition in rescuing Pvt Lynch....such was the hollywood'esk theatrics of the event. (Not believing the press....just the Iraqi Dr)
Sadly for CO1 RA this is not the UKs stance - moreover, this allows the yanks to throw stones in very small glass houses and get away with as many accusations as they wish:
a. without being accountable,
b. without fear of recrimination,
and to, if it suits their political agenda, make up anything they want.
This accusation, factual or not opens a huge can of worms politically between the US and UK. Sadly, a mere Col maybe the scapegoat. After all it happened to Col. Ollie North.
While on a anti-US rant.... I read in the paper today, an Iraqi doctor claiming the US SF's used only blank ammunition in rescuing Pvt Lynch....such was the hollywood'esk theatrics of the event. (Not believing the press....just the Iraqi Dr)
I have a horrible feeling of déja vu about this. I just pray that this does not end up in another awful court martial like the recent F15 one, where it takes two years to come to court, costs millions to try and exposes more spineless and incompetent leadership in our armed forces.
Hopefully this does not apply to the Army or Navy and is only peculiar to the leadership of the RAF as revealed in the Chinook and F15 cases.
Hopefully this does not apply to the Army or Navy and is only peculiar to the leadership of the RAF as revealed in the Chinook and F15 cases.
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Justice
Gentlemen
Everyone here seems to be getting into much more of a lather than Colonel Tim is.
Having been the deliverer of what is probably the most rousing - yet temperate - pre-battle speech to be placed into the public domain since the likes of Henry V and Churchill (or anyone in between - take your pick) clearly does not make the man incapable of war crimes.
However - those who choose to accuse him must now show that there is a case to answer, or else go home to bed before they fall over and hurt themselves.
Until they do, I'm with Colonel Tim, an officer alongside whom I - and many others - would have been privileged beyond measure to serve. 1 R Irish were just the lucky ones.
Accusers - put up or shut up.
Gadget
Everyone here seems to be getting into much more of a lather than Colonel Tim is.
Having been the deliverer of what is probably the most rousing - yet temperate - pre-battle speech to be placed into the public domain since the likes of Henry V and Churchill (or anyone in between - take your pick) clearly does not make the man incapable of war crimes.
However - those who choose to accuse him must now show that there is a case to answer, or else go home to bed before they fall over and hurt themselves.
Until they do, I'm with Colonel Tim, an officer alongside whom I - and many others - would have been privileged beyond measure to serve. 1 R Irish were just the lucky ones.
Accusers - put up or shut up.
Gadget
Last edited by Captain Gadget; 24th May 2003 at 02:28.
F-15
Zoom, try the ATC forum about a month ago, under Court Martial,long trial to nobble an air-trafficer. Syc
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Col Collins may come to regret having made that speech. Doubtless it aroused a touch of the green eye in some of his seniors (in rank, if not in eloquence) and juniors alike and some may want to see him brought down a peg or two.
On the other hand, if you're going to make such a powerful and righteous speech, you had better make sure that, even when the going gets tough, you're pretty damned squeeky clean.
If the allegations against Col Collins are false, then this is a gross injustice against a fine leader. If they are are true, it is difficult not to conclude that he has brought this trouble upon himself.
Meanwhile, I'm with Capt Gadget. Col Collins is the right stuff, until proven otherwise.
On the other hand, if you're going to make such a powerful and righteous speech, you had better make sure that, even when the going gets tough, you're pretty damned squeeky clean.
If the allegations against Col Collins are false, then this is a gross injustice against a fine leader. If they are are true, it is difficult not to conclude that he has brought this trouble upon himself.
Meanwhile, I'm with Capt Gadget. Col Collins is the right stuff, until proven otherwise.
Last edited by Scud-U-Like; 26th May 2003 at 00:10.
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The problem is that one complaint in these circumstances carries a great deal of clout in our sensation seeking and / or politically biased media, and as looks the case in the John Leslie affair, trial by media is the norm so you are cuffed before any hearing or trial anyway.
You won't see the **** media withdrawing their crap once the 1RI boss is cleared. I suppose you had to be there at the time but if you want evidence of war crimes, a dink on the head from a Brit is apparently far worse than gassing 5000 or so civilians and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of others. Let's not forget who the true enemy was here, Saddam and his regime. Apart from one US Major with a God complex, the US still are the only major ally we can rely on too.
By the way, the US don't have a monopoly on Blue on Blue, vide the GW1 and 2 Warrior, CVR and CR2's brought back to UK with a UK strain of 120mm HESH rash.
You won't see the **** media withdrawing their crap once the 1RI boss is cleared. I suppose you had to be there at the time but if you want evidence of war crimes, a dink on the head from a Brit is apparently far worse than gassing 5000 or so civilians and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of others. Let's not forget who the true enemy was here, Saddam and his regime. Apart from one US Major with a God complex, the US still are the only major ally we can rely on too.
By the way, the US don't have a monopoly on Blue on Blue, vide the GW1 and 2 Warrior, CVR and CR2's brought back to UK with a UK strain of 120mm HESH rash.
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Sunday Times and Telegraph ran very good articles on the whole affair. The problem here is one US reservist who had his ego bashed by Col Collins who was absolutely right and within his rights to do so. The giving of sweets to children was encouraging them to miss school, beg from soldiers and put themselves in a dangerous position chasing vehicles for sweets. It would have been only a matter of time before a child would have been hit by a car.
Col Collins was directly responsible for ensuring the village of Ar Rumayla (poor spelling I know) became a shining example of how good life could be for the people of Iraq under the Coalition before the Americans had even taken Baghdad.
I hope the result of the enquiry will be to exonerate the Col and show this snivelling Major for the weasel he is. The British military should not be deprived of an inspirational leader.
Rant over.
GB2
Col Collins was directly responsible for ensuring the village of Ar Rumayla (poor spelling I know) became a shining example of how good life could be for the people of Iraq under the Coalition before the Americans had even taken Baghdad.
I hope the result of the enquiry will be to exonerate the Col and show this snivelling Major for the weasel he is. The British military should not be deprived of an inspirational leader.
Rant over.
GB2
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S-u-L said:
I very much doubt it with a personal letter from the future Monarch and an accolade from the US President. However, I suspect that TC is very much his own man and doesn't need the approval of others to decide whether he is right or wrong.
So, the leader of a front-line fighting unit in direct contact with the enemy is accused by a tree-hugging counsellor and part-time traffic cop of being robustly and uncompromisingly aggressive and intimidating towards the enemy - some of who wear non-military uniforms. And he meted out similar treatment to an insubordinate junior officer who was disobeying a direct order in the field.
That's alright then. We're in good hands.
fob
Col Collins may come to regret having made that speech
So, the leader of a front-line fighting unit in direct contact with the enemy is accused by a tree-hugging counsellor and part-time traffic cop of being robustly and uncompromisingly aggressive and intimidating towards the enemy - some of who wear non-military uniforms. And he meted out similar treatment to an insubordinate junior officer who was disobeying a direct order in the field.
That's alright then. We're in good hands.
fob
Last edited by fobotcso; 26th May 2003 at 05:47.
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This is. {Sorry, I've discovered that you have to have done the (free) registration to get past the Sunday Thunderer's "Welcome" mat!}
Last edited by fobotcso; 26th May 2003 at 17:59.
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So, the tree-hugging counsellor and part-time traffic cop didn't even witness these alleged incidents first hand. I hope he is dragged over the carpet by his bosses for causing so much trouble!
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Royal Irish Regiment to be Axed
Well, heavily pruned, more like. Seems a tad premature. 1 RIR (Col Collins' old Btn) will remain intact.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/s...721416,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/s...721416,00.html