PoWs on parade
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From: surfing, watching for sharks
Moggie
Your correct about at least one thing, Rumsfield is going to bear the brunt of any due criticism on manning levels. Especially so after the Generals involved retire and publish their memoirs. That said, anyone who purports to have enough knowledge after seven days of battle to draw any conclusions goes by the name of free press
Your correct about at least one thing, Rumsfield is going to bear the brunt of any due criticism on manning levels. Especially so after the Generals involved retire and publish their memoirs. That said, anyone who purports to have enough knowledge after seven days of battle to draw any conclusions goes by the name of free press
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From: Downeast
My but do we not live in a unusual world.....Moggie, Solotk, KBF, all wander around thinking it is so nice....except when the Good Guys (meaning our side......by my definition) do something a bit harsh. I do not recall them suggesting an Iraqi soldier carrying a brand new gas mask has any importance. Guess the brutish Good Guys will violate the International Treaty on the use of Tear Gas in combat.....could not be the Iraqi's actually have Bio/Chem weapons. They never uttered a peep when thousands of Protective suits were found in a hospital....nor when the thousands of Atrophine injectors were found.....nor made a squawk when POW's were murdered by the Bad Guys( meaning the Iraqi's .....by my definition) despite sufficient circumstantial evidence. (like a video tape.....showing chest and head wounds on four bodies of troops known to have been captured while wearing body armor and kevlar helmets).
Utter ignorance in my book! .....and they do with each new post!
Utter ignorance in my book! .....and they do with each new post!
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From: A PC!
SASless - chem suits and gas masks may mean that they have and are going to use chem weapons - but until they do, there have been no WMD on display.
My post was not on that subject - just on Mr Blair's outburst (for which he has now apologised - saying that there is no evidence for execution theory yet) and on the precipitously early ground offensive without sufficient forces. Lying lie that to gain credibility at the expense of the bereaved's emotions is unacceptble behaviour.
Gen Myers told us last week that he had enough troops - now he has 130,000 on the way (30,000 now, another 100,000 to follow).
Half cocked and as such we now see the whole show bogged down and held up by people who did not want to be invaded!
My post was not on that subject - just on Mr Blair's outburst (for which he has now apologised - saying that there is no evidence for execution theory yet) and on the precipitously early ground offensive without sufficient forces. Lying lie that to gain credibility at the expense of the bereaved's emotions is unacceptble behaviour.
Gen Myers told us last week that he had enough troops - now he has 130,000 on the way (30,000 now, another 100,000 to follow).
Half cocked and as such we now see the whole show bogged down and held up by people who did not want to be invaded!
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Moggie
Highly improbable that the troops would even be looking for WMD at this stage, they are more concerned with their principle task. Looking for WMD in the more remote parts of Iraq which have yet to be secured would be highly dangerous and time consuming, particularly whilst the irregulars are known to be embedded with the locals and possibly very hostile. Plenty of time to go looking when they have manpower to spare and they can be properly protected.
Of course it is possible that they may stumble on some but only if they happen to be in their intended path to their main objective.
Of course it is possible that they may stumble on some but only if they happen to be in their intended path to their main objective.
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From: Just behind the back of beyond....
The Bush administration's claim was that all Iraqi Army units could deploy chemical weapons within 45 minutes. That's a very real and very persuasive threat. But if it's true surely to goodness there'd be some evidence of that capability by now, instead of evidence of only protective measures.
The Iraqis had NBC suits stored near the frontline. Iraqi troops have been captured and killed carrying respirators. How exactly does that differ from what our troops are doing? Yes I know that we were not ever likely to use gas against the Iraqis, but can we assume so readily that they know and believe that?
The balance of probability does suggest that the Iraqis are far more likely to use WMD than we are, but there seems to be no evidence so far that they actually had any plans to do so, or that they had deployable chemical weapons in place with frontline forces. Their possession of protective equipment does not (in itself) constitute such evidence.
I hope that we do find such evidence - it would justify everything that Bush and Blair have said and done.
The Iraqis had NBC suits stored near the frontline. Iraqi troops have been captured and killed carrying respirators. How exactly does that differ from what our troops are doing? Yes I know that we were not ever likely to use gas against the Iraqis, but can we assume so readily that they know and believe that?
The balance of probability does suggest that the Iraqis are far more likely to use WMD than we are, but there seems to be no evidence so far that they actually had any plans to do so, or that they had deployable chemical weapons in place with frontline forces. Their possession of protective equipment does not (in itself) constitute such evidence.
I hope that we do find such evidence - it would justify everything that Bush and Blair have said and done.
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From: Downeast
Jacko....
What will it take to convince you.....an actual bio/chem attack with hundreds or thousands of dead and crippled? You must be French....sitting at the sidewalk cafe....looking up to see a hundred thousand German troops marching under the Arc......and muttering "Sacre Bleu!"
What will it take to convince you.....an actual bio/chem attack with hundreds or thousands of dead and crippled? You must be French....sitting at the sidewalk cafe....looking up to see a hundred thousand German troops marching under the Arc......and muttering "Sacre Bleu!"
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From: Surrey, UK
SASless, you are aware that France declared war some time before that, and mobilised 100+ divisions when the best WE could do was send 'em 4 and 4 more later...and the wonderful Americans hadn't even noticed yet, except to pass a special law (the Neutrality Act) making it illegal to sell us any arms?
BTW, if the fact that the Iraqi army, like every other army in the world, has gas masks means that they are going to use gas, why does that not apply to us? It is a silly argument to say that because they carry gas masks they must be about to use the stuff - like saying that a motorcyclist who wears a crash helmet will clearly crash his bike on purpose. Which worthwhile army doesn't possess protective gear? Even the police do!
BTW, if the fact that the Iraqi army, like every other army in the world, has gas masks means that they are going to use gas, why does that not apply to us? It is a silly argument to say that because they carry gas masks they must be about to use the stuff - like saying that a motorcyclist who wears a crash helmet will clearly crash his bike on purpose. Which worthwhile army doesn't possess protective gear? Even the police do!
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From: Downeast
SteamChicken....now which army is under International sanctions to rid themselves of Bio/Chem weapons.....which army has used Chemical weapons in the past twenty years....which army has used chemical weapons on its own people? Duh....must be all the Western military I guess? We have the masks for defensive need....now why would the Iraqi's need them? You merely play with words and ignore the facts. Try again.
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From: Just behind the back of beyond....
No, I don't need an actual attack. Just some evidence that the Iraqis have some intent and the deployed capability to mount a chemical attack. Empty rocket warheads dumped in the back of an abandoned dump don't count. Chem agents in a laboratory don't count. Iraqi troops with gas masks don't count. Of course I believe that Iraq is more likely to use WMD than we are, but there isn't actually any evidence. That suspicion is a good reason for us to be prepared and to be very careful, and it may be a very good reason for us to redouble our efforts to find Iraqi WMD. but it isn't proof that we were right all along about their WMD.
Your characterisation of the French and analysis of the Fall of France would be offensive if it were not so silly. They weren't defeated because the Wehrmacht's attack came as a huge surprise, they were defeated because they made mistakes, and because they were not equipped or prepared to halt Hitler's blitzkrieg.
Your characterisation of the French and analysis of the Fall of France would be offensive if it were not so silly. They weren't defeated because the Wehrmacht's attack came as a huge surprise, they were defeated because they made mistakes, and because they were not equipped or prepared to halt Hitler's blitzkrieg.
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Jacko
Where exactly do you think you are going to find this evidence? It won't be in a grenade on a soldiers belt or in a mortar round.
The closest to the front line it is likely to be is with the artillery or rocket batteries. How many of these have the coalition over run so far? Iraq knows that as soon as it uses such weapons their secret is out. They will have made very elaborate plans to hide their stocks in the event that their batteries and launchers come under threat, they have had twelve years to do it.
It only needs one artillery round in every five hundred fired to be full of Anthrax and the coalition are bound to react as though every round was a biological or chemical threat, thus constricting them yet further and creating havoc.
Don't expect anyone to find huge chemical plants or laboratories hidden in caves or underground labyrinths. Far more likely that in a stock of old 45gal. drums will be a few that are false, that look old and used on the outside, but are full of enough evil to wipe out half the world. The plants that convert this into shells and rockets can be equally nondescript. Provided the whole operation is fragmented, and one must assume after all this time that it is, it will be like looking for a needle in a haystack. Little wonder the UN inspectors found little of import. It will only become obvious after the first shell/rocket has landed.
Far more likely they will wait until coalition forces are concentrated into a smaller area, if they use them at all. Given the limited amount of money the Iraqis have had to spend on military equipment don't you think it unlikely they would spend it on counter NBC unless they thought they might really need it?
The closest to the front line it is likely to be is with the artillery or rocket batteries. How many of these have the coalition over run so far? Iraq knows that as soon as it uses such weapons their secret is out. They will have made very elaborate plans to hide their stocks in the event that their batteries and launchers come under threat, they have had twelve years to do it.
It only needs one artillery round in every five hundred fired to be full of Anthrax and the coalition are bound to react as though every round was a biological or chemical threat, thus constricting them yet further and creating havoc.
Don't expect anyone to find huge chemical plants or laboratories hidden in caves or underground labyrinths. Far more likely that in a stock of old 45gal. drums will be a few that are false, that look old and used on the outside, but are full of enough evil to wipe out half the world. The plants that convert this into shells and rockets can be equally nondescript. Provided the whole operation is fragmented, and one must assume after all this time that it is, it will be like looking for a needle in a haystack. Little wonder the UN inspectors found little of import. It will only become obvious after the first shell/rocket has landed.
Far more likely they will wait until coalition forces are concentrated into a smaller area, if they use them at all. Given the limited amount of money the Iraqis have had to spend on military equipment don't you think it unlikely they would spend it on counter NBC unless they thought they might really need it?
Last edited by G.Khan; 30th March 2003 at 15:36.
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From: A Travelling Man
Yes Mr. Khan, I am inclined to agree with you.
The amount of biological matter required to cause total chaos amongst allied troops could be contained in a 1litre water bottle and hidden just as easily. A few artillery round deliberatley wrongly marked as HE would probably pass inspection unless closely examined, which the troops don't have time for. One oil drum or jerry can amongst a hundred others probably wouldn't be spotted either.
The idea that any WMD are going to stand out for all to see is erroneous in the extreme. A more fragmented and highly camouflaged operation would probably be hard to find, (pun not intended!).
The amount of biological matter required to cause total chaos amongst allied troops could be contained in a 1litre water bottle and hidden just as easily. A few artillery round deliberatley wrongly marked as HE would probably pass inspection unless closely examined, which the troops don't have time for. One oil drum or jerry can amongst a hundred others probably wouldn't be spotted either.
The idea that any WMD are going to stand out for all to see is erroneous in the extreme. A more fragmented and highly camouflaged operation would probably be hard to find, (pun not intended!).
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From: City of Culture
This is what Robin Cook had to say during his resignation speech
"Iraq probably has no weapons of mass destruction in the commonly understood sense of the term - namely a credible device capable of being delivered against a strategic city target.
It probably still has biological toxins and battlefield chemical munitions, but it has had them since the 1980s when US companies sold Saddam anthrax agents and the then British Government approved chemical and munitions factories."
And the best bit
"Why is it now so urgent that we should take military action to disarm a military capacity that has been there for 20 years, and which we helped to create?"
As Robin Cook read every single MI6 intel document on Iraq as part of his job as foreign secretary from 1997 - 2001 he knows what he's talking about.
"Iraq probably has no weapons of mass destruction in the commonly understood sense of the term - namely a credible device capable of being delivered against a strategic city target.
It probably still has biological toxins and battlefield chemical munitions, but it has had them since the 1980s when US companies sold Saddam anthrax agents and the then British Government approved chemical and munitions factories."
And the best bit
"Why is it now so urgent that we should take military action to disarm a military capacity that has been there for 20 years, and which we helped to create?"
As Robin Cook read every single MI6 intel document on Iraq as part of his job as foreign secretary from 1997 - 2001 he knows what he's talking about.
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A Civilian said:
"As Robin Cook read every single MI6 intel document on Iraq as part of his job as foreign secretary from 1997 - 2001 he knows what he's talking about."
Read every single MI6 Document on Iraq? - Possibly.
"he knows what he is talking about" ? - This would be a first.
"As Robin Cook read every single MI6 intel document on Iraq as part of his job as foreign secretary from 1997 - 2001 he knows what he's talking about."
Read every single MI6 Document on Iraq? - Possibly.
"he knows what he is talking about" ? - This would be a first.
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From: UK
An earlier poster suggested that the parading of POW's to the world on telly might at least safeguard them from the risk of being 'disappeared' subsequently.
There is an unconfirmed report this morning that four bodies found in a shallow grave outside Nasiriyah may be those of the Americans who were shown to the media earlier. Sickening if true, and bang goes that theory.
There is an unconfirmed report this morning that four bodies found in a shallow grave outside Nasiriyah may be those of the Americans who were shown to the media earlier. Sickening if true, and bang goes that theory.
