MOD sued for £9 million over Harrier noise
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The snivelling gits have been awarded something over £900,000. There were Harriers flying there when they moved in and have been ever since. The glide path has been raised from 2.5 to 3 degs to help the noise problem. Considering the RAF's complete Harrier force is based within 6 miles of his ancestral dump I think he has been very lucky to get anything. Perhaps the money will come from that widow who has (or hasn't) had to repay her late husband's allegedly overpaid salary! The poor lose out and the rich get richer! Nothing new there then!
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You lot should listen to yourselves, you all sound like a bunch of spoilt prolls. If any of you failed to notice, that house had been there since the 17 century, a bit longer than 1917 wouldn't you all agree. Also he as an individual had been living there since 1963, how many of RAF Wittering's population can claim such longevity of occupation? For the ignorant, if a building is listed as Grade 1 it is considered to be of historical importance so merely plonking Mr Everest's finest ain't allowed-Law!
This is the correct judgement, but in my opinion does nothing to reflect the real economic damage that military aircraft can cause, when RAF Wittering first opened aviation was in it's infancy and posed few problems, today things are very different so the MoD needs to understand that it has a duty to the local population of it's airfields, or the compensation bill might start to climb.
This is the correct judgement, but in my opinion does nothing to reflect the real economic damage that military aircraft can cause, when RAF Wittering first opened aviation was in it's infancy and posed few problems, today things are very different so the MoD needs to understand that it has a duty to the local population of it's airfields, or the compensation bill might start to climb.
Er... his being there since '63 is irrelevant, surely? There were V-Bombers flying from the base then. He moved in with the knowledge that there was an operational RAF airfield there, complete with jet noise. Although current Wittering inhabitants probably haven't been there since 1963, the RAF, complete with noisy things, has.
I'm sorry, but he knew what he was getting in to.
By the by - does this line:
"It was aimed at securing a declaration of unlawfulness against the Crown, which would stop the flying and result in compensation"
mean that Wittering must now stop flying ops?
I'm sorry, but he knew what he was getting in to.
By the by - does this line:
"It was aimed at securing a declaration of unlawfulness against the Crown, which would stop the flying and result in compensation"
mean that Wittering must now stop flying ops?
Mil what??
For the ignorant, I believe the term is 'proles', short for proletariat.
For the record 'Milops', your name might suggest you work in mil aviation... Your post does not.
I'm not even going to repeat the argument about the necessity of low flying in this country, because this is about a person being bothered with the normal approach and departures you might expect so close to an airfield.
The only economic damage this tw*t is suffering is that he can't hold a shooting party or have musak videos shot in the grounds...
WELL BOO F***ING HOO!
I cannot believe he has taken £950 000 of taxpayers' money, when he and his family moved into the place when the V-force was still there!!
And you should actually see the extreme efforts we go to, to avoid every little shi**y village with a retired Colonel who likes to read his morning Times in peace, or the ridiculously high circuit heights, or the constraints on essential night flying... so don't make wild assertions about "the duty we have to our local populations".
rant over
For the record 'Milops', your name might suggest you work in mil aviation... Your post does not.
I'm not even going to repeat the argument about the necessity of low flying in this country, because this is about a person being bothered with the normal approach and departures you might expect so close to an airfield.
The only economic damage this tw*t is suffering is that he can't hold a shooting party or have musak videos shot in the grounds...
WELL BOO F***ING HOO!
I cannot believe he has taken £950 000 of taxpayers' money, when he and his family moved into the place when the V-force was still there!!
And you should actually see the extreme efforts we go to, to avoid every little shi**y village with a retired Colonel who likes to read his morning Times in peace, or the ridiculously high circuit heights, or the constraints on essential night flying... so don't make wild assertions about "the duty we have to our local populations".
rant over
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The point that you are all missing I'm afraid is the PRECEDENT that has been set.
Every moaning little sh1t (or sh1tess - no PC bias here!) or left-wing axe grinder within X miles of any Mil airfield will be writing to their "no win no fee" compensation cowboy tonight. We taxpayers could be forking out millions over the next few years. The lunatics HAVE now taken over the asylum.
The MoD will be appealling this, right?
Or are they too embroiled in trumping up charges against ATCOs and Chinook crews to be bothered?
Every moaning little sh1t (or sh1tess - no PC bias here!) or left-wing axe grinder within X miles of any Mil airfield will be writing to their "no win no fee" compensation cowboy tonight. We taxpayers could be forking out millions over the next few years. The lunatics HAVE now taken over the asylum.
The MoD will be appealling this, right?
Or are they too embroiled in trumping up charges against ATCOs and Chinook crews to be bothered?
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Hmmmm, does this mean I can also sue the MOD for NOT flying over my house and depriving me of the pleasure I derive (sad anorak that I am) of the sound of fast jets?
Perhaps I should persuade the boss to go and take piccies of his house. How much noise do you think I can make in a C150 at 800' orbiting nice and close?
Perhaps I should persuade the boss to go and take piccies of his house. How much noise do you think I can make in a C150 at 800' orbiting nice and close?
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I understand the judge in this case was careful to point out this judgment was not to be regarded as setting a legal precedent and similar cases will continue to be judged on their merits or demerits. The courts are generally dismissive of those whose complain about living near aerodromes. It appears there were exceptional circumstances in this case.
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Training Risky you are a pr@t! FYI I have been working in Mil Aviation for 21 years now and understand only too well the role and need for low flying. Does being in the RAF mean that I must automatically fall into line and join the ranks of the ranting masses, if so think again! If the opener for your counter argument is to pick up on a typo then your cred is in doubt before you start, however I believe the word is a perfect description of the attitude of many who have posted so far. You rant like a small child when threatened with having your toys taken away, and to argue further that you disgree with the concept that he is denied the opportunity to hold shooting parties et al demonstrates a level of arrogance that is breathtaking. Are you trying to say that an individual's ability to make a crust is dependent on whether the MoD will actually let him? Long live democracy! Personally I regard the continued existance of a Jacobean Mansion and it's landscaped gardens more important than that of a military airfield, whether you like it or not military airfields do not enjoy an infinite life span, witness the large number that have been closed or recategorised over the recent past. The V bomber argument is specious ( how many sorties a day, how many ac in circuit, size of the circuit bearing in mind the size of the ac etc etc) and so is the argument that the the current owner moved there in 1963 and was aware of the implied ground rules. I bet in 1963 he was a very young child, also I would suggest that attitudes then were very different, that's sociological progress for you.
It appears that the Judge has decreed that this case does not imply precedence and that any subsequent case will be judged accordingly; good and quite right too, but the fact that an award of £950,000 clearly demonstrates that this particular case had merit. From now on people are going to have to pay a bit more attention to local noise abatement procedures and be a little more understanding of the local populace. And before any of you lot have a pop, I spend an awful lot of my time listening to flying complaints, and yes most deserve little sympathy but many do have a genuine grievance. Unfortunately the standard response from many aircrew in the RAF is 'tough sh!t, shouldn't live next to an airfield', nice attitude guys! The maxim here is don't generalise but take each complaint on a case by case basis.
It appears that the Judge has decreed that this case does not imply precedence and that any subsequent case will be judged accordingly; good and quite right too, but the fact that an award of £950,000 clearly demonstrates that this particular case had merit. From now on people are going to have to pay a bit more attention to local noise abatement procedures and be a little more understanding of the local populace. And before any of you lot have a pop, I spend an awful lot of my time listening to flying complaints, and yes most deserve little sympathy but many do have a genuine grievance. Unfortunately the standard response from many aircrew in the RAF is 'tough sh!t, shouldn't live next to an airfield', nice attitude guys! The maxim here is don't generalise but take each complaint on a case by case basis.
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Looks like the same old story: buy cheap, complain, get compensation - just like at Nordhorn Range all those years ago. Wish I could think of something similar. Wait a minute - there's a farm across the road and the endless racket from those 2000 new-born lambs is driving me to distraction. So what if that farm has been there for 200 years and I've been here for just 10 - I have my rights, you know, and I expect everything to change to suit me!
John Nichol is right in today's DT.
John Nichol is right in today's DT.
I'll go along with the aviation masses on this one.
I can scarcely believe that someone whose family bought a house next to an operational jet station can be awarded compensation for aircraft noise.
Unfortunately we see this kind of idiocy on an all too regular basis from GA to PT to Mil. At White Waltham, for instance, there are new houses built right up to the airfield perimeter - I wonder if the owners bought in the certain knowledge that they will, one day, collect a light aircraft in their back yard. When they do they'll probably complain about it
Do we or do we not want to have an Air Force? If we do we must remember that the UK is a small and very densely populated country and we put up with motorway noise, PT aircraft noise, industrial noise etc., etc.
My personal opinion is that, if the Dennises do not care for the "sound of freedom", perhaps they should consider moving away from Wittering as their family made their decision to move there in the first place.
I trust that no accidents will take place as a result of RAF alterations to procedures in an attempt to reduce noise from these very effective aircraft.
I can scarcely believe that someone whose family bought a house next to an operational jet station can be awarded compensation for aircraft noise.
Unfortunately we see this kind of idiocy on an all too regular basis from GA to PT to Mil. At White Waltham, for instance, there are new houses built right up to the airfield perimeter - I wonder if the owners bought in the certain knowledge that they will, one day, collect a light aircraft in their back yard. When they do they'll probably complain about it
Do we or do we not want to have an Air Force? If we do we must remember that the UK is a small and very densely populated country and we put up with motorway noise, PT aircraft noise, industrial noise etc., etc.
My personal opinion is that, if the Dennises do not care for the "sound of freedom", perhaps they should consider moving away from Wittering as their family made their decision to move there in the first place.
I trust that no accidents will take place as a result of RAF alterations to procedures in an attempt to reduce noise from these very effective aircraft.
Last edited by Basil; 17th Apr 2003 at 18:18.
Suave yet Shallow
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words fail me...
A couple of minor points though....if its been that bad for so long...why hasn't he moved? I mean if it REALLY was that distressing and upsetting...I'd have moved a long time ago. It strikes me they've the money to do such a thing if necessary.
Also, now he's got the money, whats going to happen to the aircraft noise? Not a lot as far as I can tell, he didn't like the noise...so the MOD did their best to limit it, he still didn't like it so now he's being paid. He's still got to put up with the noise, so all he's acheived is a wedge of cash..which is not to be sniffed at...but he's still got to put up with the aircraft.
Perhaps now he's got his million he can go buy a house near Cranwell...get paid again...then howabout one near Scampton...double-whammy, those Red arrows make awful colours which will spoil their view of a normally blue sky ASWELL as the noise....grrr...
<TC - going to have some camomile tea and calm down>
Perhaps the station officer could now sue them for the stress they've caused him and the RAF over the past 40 years.
A couple of minor points though....if its been that bad for so long...why hasn't he moved? I mean if it REALLY was that distressing and upsetting...I'd have moved a long time ago. It strikes me they've the money to do such a thing if necessary.
Also, now he's got the money, whats going to happen to the aircraft noise? Not a lot as far as I can tell, he didn't like the noise...so the MOD did their best to limit it, he still didn't like it so now he's being paid. He's still got to put up with the noise, so all he's acheived is a wedge of cash..which is not to be sniffed at...but he's still got to put up with the aircraft.
Perhaps now he's got his million he can go buy a house near Cranwell...get paid again...then howabout one near Scampton...double-whammy, those Red arrows make awful colours which will spoil their view of a normally blue sky ASWELL as the noise....grrr...
<TC - going to have some camomile tea and calm down>
Perhaps the station officer could now sue them for the stress they've caused him and the RAF over the past 40 years.
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I periodically browse this board simply out of curiousity. I never cease to be surprised and dismayed by the purile, juvenile and frankly stupid comments that are posted here.
If the RAF displayed the tiniest fraction of the attitude portrayed by the rubbish posted here, they were bound to lose.
Get real little boys and girls, WW2 was almost 60 years ago - it is totally irrelevant to any argument today. Changing an approach path from 2.5 to 3 degrees is pretty much like taking the p@ss to anyone actually on it.
Unless you people start acting with some level of responsibly - and dare I say it maturity, the only remaining airfields will either be on ships or close to Cape Wrath. As some of you have noted we live in a densely populated country, which actually only because of political ambitions, needs an airforce at all. As soon as you guys are more trouble than you are worth you'll be consigned to the history books.
I have to say I'm going to look at the judgement in detail because it HAS set some sort of precedent and that will doubtless have some effect on my flying.
In GA we already have a hard enough time with noise and nuisance complaints, largely because people know they will be told to "p@ss off" when they complain about military low flying but we do not have that clout, money or influence.
Well wake up and smell the coffee people - neither do you now! Milops seems to be the only poster who has the vaguest idea - the rest of you people - I'm sure you'll enjoy flaming my post - but remember what I wrote when you get posted to Sutherland!
If the RAF displayed the tiniest fraction of the attitude portrayed by the rubbish posted here, they were bound to lose.
Get real little boys and girls, WW2 was almost 60 years ago - it is totally irrelevant to any argument today. Changing an approach path from 2.5 to 3 degrees is pretty much like taking the p@ss to anyone actually on it.
Unless you people start acting with some level of responsibly - and dare I say it maturity, the only remaining airfields will either be on ships or close to Cape Wrath. As some of you have noted we live in a densely populated country, which actually only because of political ambitions, needs an airforce at all. As soon as you guys are more trouble than you are worth you'll be consigned to the history books.
I have to say I'm going to look at the judgement in detail because it HAS set some sort of precedent and that will doubtless have some effect on my flying.
In GA we already have a hard enough time with noise and nuisance complaints, largely because people know they will be told to "p@ss off" when they complain about military low flying but we do not have that clout, money or influence.
Well wake up and smell the coffee people - neither do you now! Milops seems to be the only poster who has the vaguest idea - the rest of you people - I'm sure you'll enjoy flaming my post - but remember what I wrote when you get posted to Sutherland!
Lupus Domesticus
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gasax, p*ss off and die. You are a complete t*sser.
Shelve your curiosity, keep your surprise and dismay to yourself, and don't bother to "browse" this board again. We have far better things to expend time on than perusing the infantile and uninformed rantings of a moron.
Quote:
Get real little boys and girls, WW2 was almost 60 years ago - it is totally irrelevant to any argument today. Changing an approach path from 2.5 to 3 degrees is pretty much like taking the p@ss to anyone actually on it.
So, you are a little girl yourself, and an ignorant one, who knows nothing about either history, or physical sciences as they apply to acoustics and aerodynamics. By the way, 1939 was more than 60 years ago. Were you as challenged by primary school maths as you are by present day reality?
Quote:
Unless you people start acting with some level of responsibly - and dare I say it maturity, the only remaining airfields will either be on ships or close to Cape Wrath. As some of you have noted we live in a densely populated country, which actually only because of political ambitions, needs an airforce at all. As soon as you guys are more trouble than you are worth you'll be consigned to the history books.
Silly girl, the most dense thing here - unmentioned - is the grey matter within your skull. You poor sad person, political ambitions are singularly irrelevant....it is when a nation is without an Air Force that it must face the possibility of being consigned to the history books. Perhaps you belong to Helen Clark's lesbian socialist advisory group? (Lucifer - you are a light in the darkness)
Quote:
I never cease to be surprised and dismayed by the purile, juvenile and frankly stupid comments that are posted here.
Yeah, well, neither are we, sunshine. You said it. Now do be a good little fool and go away.
Shelve your curiosity, keep your surprise and dismay to yourself, and don't bother to "browse" this board again. We have far better things to expend time on than perusing the infantile and uninformed rantings of a moron.
Quote:
Get real little boys and girls, WW2 was almost 60 years ago - it is totally irrelevant to any argument today. Changing an approach path from 2.5 to 3 degrees is pretty much like taking the p@ss to anyone actually on it.
So, you are a little girl yourself, and an ignorant one, who knows nothing about either history, or physical sciences as they apply to acoustics and aerodynamics. By the way, 1939 was more than 60 years ago. Were you as challenged by primary school maths as you are by present day reality?
Quote:
Unless you people start acting with some level of responsibly - and dare I say it maturity, the only remaining airfields will either be on ships or close to Cape Wrath. As some of you have noted we live in a densely populated country, which actually only because of political ambitions, needs an airforce at all. As soon as you guys are more trouble than you are worth you'll be consigned to the history books.
Silly girl, the most dense thing here - unmentioned - is the grey matter within your skull. You poor sad person, political ambitions are singularly irrelevant....it is when a nation is without an Air Force that it must face the possibility of being consigned to the history books. Perhaps you belong to Helen Clark's lesbian socialist advisory group? (Lucifer - you are a light in the darkness)
Quote:
I never cease to be surprised and dismayed by the purile, juvenile and frankly stupid comments that are posted here.
Yeah, well, neither are we, sunshine. You said it. Now do be a good little fool and go away.
?
Oh what fantastic logic! I get slammed for starting my post with a point about basic spelling, while the slammer starts his with a personal insult
No milops you are not expected to follow the rest of us like a sheep. The RAF is proudly composed of independent thinkers who are entitled to their own point of view, and are also good team-players.
What is also expected however, is some BL**DY LOYALTY to that which has clothed and fed you for "21 years".
If you have been in for as long as you say you have, then you should know the herculean efforts we go to, to lessen noise pollution.
I think your little rant has destroyed any cred you and gasax might have had, not mine. I think I am in the majority here...
To get back to the point, and away from personal sniping.... Does anyone think we are in danger of a deluge of claims ranging from Cornwall to the Highlands? And will they get anything like Derby Dennis did?
PS: Back to personal sniping: gasax you are an utter, complete t*sser. Sod off back to your GA and leave proper aviation to the professionals....
...but don't hesitate to call us if you need rescuing from a cliff by a nasty low-flying SAR helicopter, supplies dropped by a low-flying Nimrod, Casevac by a low-flying Puma (happened in NI), or if you need your country defended at any time from a r*ghead attack! Or in a few months when you need the flames doused from your back by a poorly paid mechanic who maintains those nasty aggressive pointy aeroplanes.
No milops you are not expected to follow the rest of us like a sheep. The RAF is proudly composed of independent thinkers who are entitled to their own point of view, and are also good team-players.
What is also expected however, is some BL**DY LOYALTY to that which has clothed and fed you for "21 years".
If you have been in for as long as you say you have, then you should know the herculean efforts we go to, to lessen noise pollution.
I think your little rant has destroyed any cred you and gasax might have had, not mine. I think I am in the majority here...
To get back to the point, and away from personal sniping.... Does anyone think we are in danger of a deluge of claims ranging from Cornwall to the Highlands? And will they get anything like Derby Dennis did?
PS: Back to personal sniping: gasax you are an utter, complete t*sser. Sod off back to your GA and leave proper aviation to the professionals....
...but don't hesitate to call us if you need rescuing from a cliff by a nasty low-flying SAR helicopter, supplies dropped by a low-flying Nimrod, Casevac by a low-flying Puma (happened in NI), or if you need your country defended at any time from a r*ghead attack! Or in a few months when you need the flames doused from your back by a poorly paid mechanic who maintains those nasty aggressive pointy aeroplanes.
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Look, gasax, if you can't spell a big work like PUERILE, then you shouldn't be using the internet without your mum's permission.
Yes, there is a wider issue here, as to whether we need an air force and how they should train, but the plaintiffs didn't exactly get their way in this case, did they? We don't all live in listed mansions, so this isn't going to open the floodgates for similar compensation cases. I'm getting more than a hint of sour grapes from you because mil pilots can get away with things that you can't.
If you don't like the mil pilots threat, SHOP ELSEWHERE!
Yes, there is a wider issue here, as to whether we need an air force and how they should train, but the plaintiffs didn't exactly get their way in this case, did they? We don't all live in listed mansions, so this isn't going to open the floodgates for similar compensation cases. I'm getting more than a hint of sour grapes from you because mil pilots can get away with things that you can't.
If you don't like the mil pilots threat, SHOP ELSEWHERE!
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Recently received a request from one of the local gentry,
“Would you mind changing runways, we’re selling the house and we have some people coming round this afternoon.”
Of course this was politely ignored.
“Would you mind changing runways, we’re selling the house and we have some people coming round this afternoon.”
Of course this was politely ignored.
MilOps,
Forgive me, but I have to differ with you over the V-bomber argument. While I appreciate your point about number of sorties, etc, etc, my point was that the fellow would have known from an early stage that the airfield was a tad noisy. Again, I appreciate that different profiles, etc, etc, etc will have made a difference, but the point remains the same - he's been living by an airfield for an awfully long time. Unless there were profound changes in the operations at Wittering in the mid-1980s (when the complaint first arose, I believe) that made the area markedly more noisy than before, then I'd contend that he had some awareness of the ground 'rules'. It may be that his legal team have put his argument across rather poorly for onward transmission by the media, but the impression to date is that he decided that Ops at Wittering ought to cease entirely since this got in the way of his aims. He did, of course, attempt to bring flying ops to a close, but the judge said that this was unreasonable.
My better half once lived near to Yeovilton, and later very close to Cottesmore (experiencing Tornados and GR7s). She remarked that, after a while, the jet noise and other effects really weren't a problem: you got used to them. Perhaps this has coloured my view - it seems that the chap was able to get used to the noise, but as soon as it became clear that the birds wouldn't.... Probably most unfair, but there you go.
I think we'll have to agree to differ on this, but I can see your point nonetheless.
Forgive me, but I have to differ with you over the V-bomber argument. While I appreciate your point about number of sorties, etc, etc, my point was that the fellow would have known from an early stage that the airfield was a tad noisy. Again, I appreciate that different profiles, etc, etc, etc will have made a difference, but the point remains the same - he's been living by an airfield for an awfully long time. Unless there were profound changes in the operations at Wittering in the mid-1980s (when the complaint first arose, I believe) that made the area markedly more noisy than before, then I'd contend that he had some awareness of the ground 'rules'. It may be that his legal team have put his argument across rather poorly for onward transmission by the media, but the impression to date is that he decided that Ops at Wittering ought to cease entirely since this got in the way of his aims. He did, of course, attempt to bring flying ops to a close, but the judge said that this was unreasonable.
My better half once lived near to Yeovilton, and later very close to Cottesmore (experiencing Tornados and GR7s). She remarked that, after a while, the jet noise and other effects really weren't a problem: you got used to them. Perhaps this has coloured my view - it seems that the chap was able to get used to the noise, but as soon as it became clear that the birds wouldn't.... Probably most unfair, but there you go.
I think we'll have to agree to differ on this, but I can see your point nonetheless.