More fun & games in the Magic Kingdom
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The Mrs.?
Capt Mullet,
Thanks for your reply. Could you also alleviate some of my question about the living standards. The Mrs. isn't exactly overjoyed by the idea of going to the Magic Kingdom. The statement about the family time. Is that actually qualitytime or merely quantity time? There doesn't seem to be any "amusement parks" around to take the kids if you know what I mean.
Please don't spare me the details and maybe the Mrs. would like to join in the forum as well.....???
Otherwise a personal message would be welcome too.
Thanks again and much obliged.
Flaender
Thanks for your reply. Could you also alleviate some of my question about the living standards. The Mrs. isn't exactly overjoyed by the idea of going to the Magic Kingdom. The statement about the family time. Is that actually qualitytime or merely quantity time? There doesn't seem to be any "amusement parks" around to take the kids if you know what I mean.
Please don't spare me the details and maybe the Mrs. would like to join in the forum as well.....???
Otherwise a personal message would be welcome too.
Thanks again and much obliged.
Flaender
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emitex......... the BBC are a little bit behind the power curve on this......
BBC security analyst Frank Garner, when asked whether he was aware that the story had been reported two weeks ago, told Arab News: I was not aware that the statement was previously reported outside of Saudi Arabia.
But a spokesman for the British Embassy concurred that the story had previously been reported.
This is nothing new. We think that the article is based on a report in the Saudi press on Aug. 26, which dealt with an arms cache that had been recently discovered, he told Arab News.
Mutt.
BBC security analyst Frank Garner, when asked whether he was aware that the story had been reported two weeks ago, told Arab News: I was not aware that the statement was previously reported outside of Saudi Arabia.
But a spokesman for the British Embassy concurred that the story had previously been reported.
This is nothing new. We think that the article is based on a report in the Saudi press on Aug. 26, which dealt with an arms cache that had been recently discovered, he told Arab News.
Mutt.
BAE In Tabuk
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This is News? This is old History. PD has the files.
David Leigh, Rob Evans and David Gow
Friday September 12, 2003
The Guardian
The director of the Serious Fraud Office, Robert Wardle, was last night considering opening a full-scale criminal investigation into the arms firm BAE Systems and its alleged Ģ20m slush fund designed to bribe Saudi officials, following the emergence of fresh evidence.
The SFO said Mr Wardle was studying new documents which had come to light following the Guardian's disclosures about the slush fund yesterday.
Sir Richard Evans, the BAE chairman, sat silent about the allegations at a news conference on BAE's interim results yesterday after the disclosure in the Guardian of the text of a letter from Mr Wardle's predecessor at the SFO, Rosalind Wright, saying there were claims of Sir Richard's possible personal complicity in the operation of the slush fund.
Sir Richard left it to BAE chief executive Mike Turner to issue a bald denial of any wrongdoing. But Mr Turner failed to address repeated questions from reporters about the detailed published allegations that BAE had run a front company RLI, designed to bribe Saudi officials, and that some BAE executives may have stolen large sums out of the alleged slush fund.
Mr Turner said: "BAE operates rigorously within the laws of both the UK and the countries in which it operates." He added: "BAE Systems vigorously rejects allegations of wrongdoing." Despite his denials, Mr Turner admitted that BAE had no plans to take legal action against the Guardian.
He said: "The more you talk about these things the worse it is for everybody. If you take action all you do is prolong these allegations and I don't see it as beneficial to anyone."
Further evidence of a cover-up at the MoD emerged last night. The SFO attempted to pursue the allegations against BAE two years ago by referring the papers to the MoD
The Guardian has established that there was no subsequent MoD investigation. MoD police confirmed to us that: "We were never given the case"
But Mr Wardle was so worried by the original allegations that he met George Branagh, head of the MoD fraud squad to discuss them on March 6 2001, before contacting Sir Kevin Tebbit, MoD permanent secretary with a plea for action. The SFO wanted at least a DTI investigation.
Mr Wardle told his then SFO boss, Rosalind Wright: "It cannot simply be left and I think we should report the concerns to the DTI and perhaps the MoD police fraud squad".
He made plain his reliance on MoD cooperation last February, telling a former BAE security officer, Martin Bromley, who had provided documents: "Should the ministry uncover sufficient evidence which would justify such an investigation, I am confident they will refer the matter back to us".
But the MoD blocked any investigation, and withheld the SFO director's letter from defence secretary Geoff Hoon, who thus remained ignorant of the potential scandal.
The MoD claimed last night "There was no suggestion of misuse of public money, so it did not fall within the MoD police remit to investigate."
A key document among those the SFO is studying is a BAE internal memorandum which reveals that a meeting was held to discuss an ex-employee of the front company, Edward Cunningham, who had obtained allegedly incriminating files exposing the slush fund. Instead of calling in the authorities, the memo records: "The situation was under control" with plans to close down operations, manage them "more tightly", and "square off" Mr Cunningham.
Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrats' trade spokesman, said last night: "This is a devastating and profoundly serious set of allegations which if proved true could shake BAE from top to bottom. It is essential the SFO investigate fully. To what extent were officials from the MoD, FCO [Foreign and Commonwealth Office] and DTI aware of these alleged practices, and were they in any way condoned?"
Special reports
Saudi Arabia
The arms trade
Key documents
Internal Serious Fraud Office memo to Rosalind Wright
11.09.2003: Letter from Rosalind Wright to the Ministry of Defence police
11.09.2003: Internal Serious Fraud Office memo
11.09.2003: Letter from the Serious Fraud Office to Martin Bromley
11.09.2003: Response from BAE Systems to the Guardian regarding the allegations
http://www.guardian.co.uk/armstrade/...040440,00.html
Friday September 12, 2003
The Guardian
The director of the Serious Fraud Office, Robert Wardle, was last night considering opening a full-scale criminal investigation into the arms firm BAE Systems and its alleged Ģ20m slush fund designed to bribe Saudi officials, following the emergence of fresh evidence.
The SFO said Mr Wardle was studying new documents which had come to light following the Guardian's disclosures about the slush fund yesterday.
Sir Richard Evans, the BAE chairman, sat silent about the allegations at a news conference on BAE's interim results yesterday after the disclosure in the Guardian of the text of a letter from Mr Wardle's predecessor at the SFO, Rosalind Wright, saying there were claims of Sir Richard's possible personal complicity in the operation of the slush fund.
Sir Richard left it to BAE chief executive Mike Turner to issue a bald denial of any wrongdoing. But Mr Turner failed to address repeated questions from reporters about the detailed published allegations that BAE had run a front company RLI, designed to bribe Saudi officials, and that some BAE executives may have stolen large sums out of the alleged slush fund.
Mr Turner said: "BAE operates rigorously within the laws of both the UK and the countries in which it operates." He added: "BAE Systems vigorously rejects allegations of wrongdoing." Despite his denials, Mr Turner admitted that BAE had no plans to take legal action against the Guardian.
He said: "The more you talk about these things the worse it is for everybody. If you take action all you do is prolong these allegations and I don't see it as beneficial to anyone."
Further evidence of a cover-up at the MoD emerged last night. The SFO attempted to pursue the allegations against BAE two years ago by referring the papers to the MoD
The Guardian has established that there was no subsequent MoD investigation. MoD police confirmed to us that: "We were never given the case"
But Mr Wardle was so worried by the original allegations that he met George Branagh, head of the MoD fraud squad to discuss them on March 6 2001, before contacting Sir Kevin Tebbit, MoD permanent secretary with a plea for action. The SFO wanted at least a DTI investigation.
Mr Wardle told his then SFO boss, Rosalind Wright: "It cannot simply be left and I think we should report the concerns to the DTI and perhaps the MoD police fraud squad".
He made plain his reliance on MoD cooperation last February, telling a former BAE security officer, Martin Bromley, who had provided documents: "Should the ministry uncover sufficient evidence which would justify such an investigation, I am confident they will refer the matter back to us".
But the MoD blocked any investigation, and withheld the SFO director's letter from defence secretary Geoff Hoon, who thus remained ignorant of the potential scandal.
The MoD claimed last night "There was no suggestion of misuse of public money, so it did not fall within the MoD police remit to investigate."
A key document among those the SFO is studying is a BAE internal memorandum which reveals that a meeting was held to discuss an ex-employee of the front company, Edward Cunningham, who had obtained allegedly incriminating files exposing the slush fund. Instead of calling in the authorities, the memo records: "The situation was under control" with plans to close down operations, manage them "more tightly", and "square off" Mr Cunningham.
Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrats' trade spokesman, said last night: "This is a devastating and profoundly serious set of allegations which if proved true could shake BAE from top to bottom. It is essential the SFO investigate fully. To what extent were officials from the MoD, FCO [Foreign and Commonwealth Office] and DTI aware of these alleged practices, and were they in any way condoned?"
Special reports
Saudi Arabia
The arms trade
Key documents
Internal Serious Fraud Office memo to Rosalind Wright
11.09.2003: Letter from Rosalind Wright to the Ministry of Defence police
11.09.2003: Internal Serious Fraud Office memo
11.09.2003: Letter from the Serious Fraud Office to Martin Bromley
11.09.2003: Response from BAE Systems to the Guardian regarding the allegations
http://www.guardian.co.uk/armstrade/...040440,00.html
Thread Starter
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Well well well..................welcome to business Middle Eastern style!
Rest assured if BWoS don't do it, Mssrs Lockheed, Boing et al would. What is considered fraud, bribery etc in the Western World is merely the cost of doing business in the M.E.
Heard that when Prince Turki Bin Nasser (TBN to his mates) was the Saudi Defence Minister BWoS footed the bill for several weeks stay at the Grosvenor (or some such other flash pub) for him and his somewhat extensive entourage. Ran to several million pounds apparently. An extreme example, granted. However it is commonplace for BWoS to hand out watches, pens etc (and the occasional car I'm told) to keep things running smoothly.
Rest assured if BWoS don't do it, Mssrs Lockheed, Boing et al would. What is considered fraud, bribery etc in the Western World is merely the cost of doing business in the M.E.
Heard that when Prince Turki Bin Nasser (TBN to his mates) was the Saudi Defence Minister BWoS footed the bill for several weeks stay at the Grosvenor (or some such other flash pub) for him and his somewhat extensive entourage. Ran to several million pounds apparently. An extreme example, granted. However it is commonplace for BWoS to hand out watches, pens etc (and the occasional car I'm told) to keep things running smoothly.
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Capt Sand Dunes
You don't have to wonder about the length, breadth and depth of it all. It's all spelt out here in the original article.
It is the cost of doing business with despotic regimes.
The remaining life-span of the Saudi Monarchy is measured not in nepotism and patronage, but in bestowal and largesse. One day you will simply be aware that they've left, aren't there any more - and won't be coming back. They'll be in Monte Carlo, Switzerland and the South of France and the Wahabbi Ayatollah who's then in power will just tear up the Al Yamamah Contract.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/stor...039832,00.html
You don't have to wonder about the length, breadth and depth of it all. It's all spelt out here in the original article.
It is the cost of doing business with despotic regimes.
The remaining life-span of the Saudi Monarchy is measured not in nepotism and patronage, but in bestowal and largesse. One day you will simply be aware that they've left, aren't there any more - and won't be coming back. They'll be in Monte Carlo, Switzerland and the South of France and the Wahabbi Ayatollah who's then in power will just tear up the Al Yamamah Contract.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/stor...039832,00.html
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BWoS is probably no different than any arms company selling abroad but they seem to be less good at hiding their corruption than the others.
Those who work for them in Saudi should by now understand that the company lacks both morals and principles. If money becomes one's God, God help one.
Those who work for them in Saudi should by now understand that the company lacks both morals and principles. If money becomes one's God, God help one.
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Sorry but Western style morals and principles just do not work in the Magic Kingdom. Been there, seen how its done. Pens, key rings, folders ... laptops ... cars .... foreign trips. You name it - anything goes.
Modern business meets traditional culture.
Bear 555
Modern business meets traditional culture.
Bear 555
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But it is western lack of morals and principles that wahabism is seeking to address. Companies like BWoS should be squeaky clean in dealing with the Saudi royals because it is obvious that they are despised by the Saudi people for their joint corruption with the royals.
No business is better than corruption.
No business is better than corruption.
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Tonybliar A very moral stance, but with UK plc economy going the way it is, perhaps we canīt afford to have such high morals? How many jobs does BAe support? Somehow, I canīt imagine the French Defence industry being so idealistic....
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If our economy is so dependant on corruption that we have to be corrupt in our foreign arms sales then perhaps we should start speaking French!
I believe that sustainable arms exports are only possible if the trade is honest. Whilst bribery works in the short term it results in hands held out for more every time you try to do repeat business. In Saudi, in particular, there is a culture amongst the native decision makers that requires the application of slush money or other perks every time you deal with them - we started this and it would have been better for all concerned if we had not. The problem now is to change their expectations.
I believe that sustainable arms exports are only possible if the trade is honest. Whilst bribery works in the short term it results in hands held out for more every time you try to do repeat business. In Saudi, in particular, there is a culture amongst the native decision makers that requires the application of slush money or other perks every time you deal with them - we started this and it would have been better for all concerned if we had not. The problem now is to change their expectations.
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Getting back in the charts
Heys guys (and dolls?),
Is there nothing going on in the Magic Kingdom anymore? We're down to page 3.
Still curious about the "environmentals".
Keep us "inferior being" updated.
Cheers.
Is there nothing going on in the Magic Kingdom anymore? We're down to page 3.
Still curious about the "environmentals".
Keep us "inferior being" updated.
Cheers.